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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Anaomaly - Siege of Athens - Longswordmen Trainable as Greeks
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Topic Subject:Anaomaly - Siege of Athens - Longswordmen Trainable as Greeks
EME2940820
Clubman
posted 08-05-09 03:22 PM ET (US)         
I have been replaying the original campaigns in Phatfish's Late Beta, Age of Empires, and Rise of Rome.

In Phatfish's Late Beta and in Age of Empires' versions of the Glory of Greece: Siege of Athens scenario, one can train Longswordsmen from the Barracks as the Greek civilization. This is not specific to the Barracks the designers laid down in the city but any Barracks villagers can build.

However, in Rise of Rome, Short Swordsmen [rather than Longswordsman] are trainable.

I noticed this when I first starting playing AoE, but I must have forgotten over the years.

Does anyone have any insight regarding this anomaly?



Below are some screenshots for illustrative purposes.





Athenian Barracks in AOE





Athenian Barracks in ROR

[This message has been edited by EME2940820 (edited 08-05-2009 @ 04:01 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 08-05-09 05:36 PM ET (US)     1 / 18       
Hey EME! Why don't you visit more often? we have lots of stuff going on here...

It seems post Iron age Greece gets long swordsmen,when they're in fact supposed the have shorties, this is clearly seen as they if set to start in iron age only has shorties, where most civs have broadies...

It appears to be a bug, which was fixed in RoR... Strange that the patch didn't fix it though...

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
EME2940820
Clubman
posted 08-06-09 04:57 AM ET (US)     2 / 18       
Thanks Fruktfisk.

There are a number of unexpected outcomes that occur when the age is set to Post-Imperial. I have never really noticed so many before. The Greek Long Swordsman is by far the most pathological I have found. Since I rarely play Age of Empires [being a Rise of Rome guy], I have not seen Greek Long Swordsmen for about eight years. Below I will enumerate more unexpected outcomes that I found.




Age of Empires Post-Imperial Anomalies



Units When Placed That Are Not Upgraded As Expected

*Sentry Tower
*Guard Tower
*War Galley
*Catapult
*Broad Swordsman
*Long Swordsman
*Phalanx
*Heavy Cavalry
*Medium Wall


Note: If a civilization has the Alchemy technology, the towers will have flaming projectiles; however, only the placed Sentry Tower gets the +1 Attack from Alchemy.



Greek

*Placed Short Swordsman are upgraded to Long Swordsman
*Long Swordsman are trainable at Barracks



Minoan

*Placed Improved Bowman are upgraded to Composite Bowman without +2 Range Bonus
*Composite Bowman created from Archery Range receive no +2 Range Bonus


Hittite

*If Triremes are placed, they get the +4 Range Bonus



Persian

*If Hoplites are placed, they are upgraded to Centurions



Choson

*Placed Short Swordsmen are upgraded to Legions without Hitpoint Bonus
*Legions created from Barracks have no Hitpoint Bonus





Rise of Rome Post-Imperial Anomalies Fixed/Remaining


Units When Placed That Are Not Upgraded As Expected

*Medium Wall Fixed
*Otherwise, see Age of Empires list

Note: All civilizations with Alchemy now benefit from their towers receiving +1 Attack


Greek

*Long Swordsman anomaly fixed



Minoan

*Composite Bowman anomaly remains



Hittite

*Trireme anomaly fixed



Persian

*Hoplite anomaly remains



Choson

*Legion anomaly remains



Yamato

*War Elephants are upgraded to Armored Elephants






If there is anything you find or any mistakes I have made, please let me know.

[This message has been edited by EME2940820 (edited 08-06-2009 @ 05:04 AM).]

Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-06-09 08:23 AM ET (US)     3 / 18       
I have a fix for the persian and yamato, but was unaware of the minoan and choson bugs you have mentioned. I will test these out when I get home.

IIRC AoE had some bug with egyptian war elephants + iron shield? obviously this must have been fixed for RoR as iron shield would have given armored eles.


Basically, the "techage" was poorly implemented (for people who are familiar with AoEd/RoRd) in AoE. A tech was disabled and ES must have presumed that they would not need to disable all the subsequent techs (e.g. centies for persians). These bugs will not affect RM or DM, just scenarios set to post-iron (again, IIRC but DM only goes as far as the iron age?).
EME2940820
Clubman
posted 08-06-09 12:02 PM ET (US)     4 / 18       
Rasteve,

What is IIRC?
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-06-09 12:11 PM ET (US)     5 / 18       
iirc - if i remember correctly
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 08-06-09 04:26 PM ET (US)     6 / 18       
Interesting...i never played any campaign in AoE, however, are you sure one isn't Minoan at AoE?
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 08-06-09 05:05 PM ET (US)     7 / 18       
Didn't you see the screenshots? And why would anyone make Athens Minoan?

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
EME2940820
Clubman
posted 08-07-09 04:09 AM ET (US)     8 / 18       
Rasteve,

I am not familiar with any situations where Egyptians War Elephants benefit from pierce armor. Do you know anything more specific about this?



Suppiluliuma,

I have methodically tested each civlization's units to find the post-iron anomalies listed.



Fruktfisk,

Perhaps one would use the Minoan civilization for Athens in AOE to emphasize their superior naval forces.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-07-09 04:21 AM ET (US)     9 / 18       
I am not familiar with any situations where Egyptians War Elephants benefit from pierce armor. Do you know anything more specific about this?
No they don't benefit from shield but the iron shield is a prerequisites for the armored elephant upgrade. Try this test out in AoE:

Iron Age + Egyptian + Axeman - check pierce armour
Post-Iron Age + Egy + Axer - check pierce armour

Now consider this...Egypt doesnt get shield
And it must be the iron shield as the change only happens in post-iron


edit

Minoan tests:

placed impies in iron/post-iron upgrade to compie without +2 range
trained compies in iron/post-iron without +2 range

cannot understand the reason behind training issue. not sure if these can be fixed.

Choson:

placed broad sword does not upgrade to long or legion
placed long does not upgrade to legion
trained legions do not have bonus for post-iron

the first 2 should be fixable - most likely down to the tech effects implementation
the final issue is strange


conclusion - strange how post-iron messes minoan (iron too) and choson training their unique-ability units. i take a deeper look today.

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 08-07-2009 @ 04:59 AM).]

EME2940820
Clubman
posted 08-07-09 04:55 AM ET (US)     10 / 18       
Rasteve,

Thanks for pointing this out.

To carify: In AOE Post-Iron Age, all Egyptian Barracks and Academy units [either placed or trained] receive +1 Pierce Armor save the placed Legion.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-07-09 05:01 AM ET (US)     11 / 18       
just edited my previous post - re minoan and choson.


on the egyptians - strange how legion does not receive shield. maybe no post-iron civ receives iron shield???
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 08-07-09 10:51 AM ET (US)     12 / 18       
For me placed Legs seem to get it too...

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
EME2940820
Clubman
posted 08-07-09 12:37 PM ET (US)     13 / 18       
Rasteve,

Placed Broad and Long Swordsman are never upgraded in post-Iron regardless of the civilization chosen [no pun intended]. [You will see that I listed both under the general category of Units When Placed That Are Not Upgraded As Expected.]



Fruktfisk,

Indeed, you are correct.

I was testing Egyptian infantry on my laptop with Phatfish's Late Beta last night. In this version, the placed Egyptian post-Iron Legion does not get +1 Pierce Armor.

I just tested the same thing in AOE, and the placed Egyption post-Iron Legion does get +1 Pierce Armor.

Curious.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-08-09 06:26 AM ET (US)     14 / 18       
Several others I have found (must be placed in scenario):

Heavy Cavalry cannot upgrade to Cataphracts
Catapult cannot upgrade to Heavy Catapult
War Galley cannot upgrade to Trireme
Phalanx cannot upgrade to Centurions
Sentry Tower cannot upgrade to Ballista Tower
Guard Tower cannot upgrade to Ballista Tower


Including the swordsman/legion and looking at the game data this is caused by the techs always upgrading the lowest unit in the chain. Transition units are omitted.


[edit]

On the choson and minoan problem, i think this can be solved if all pre-units also have the bonus.

Thinking about it, this should also affect persian trireme. Maybe testing a scout ship and trireme go to post iron and see if both fire at the same rate?

[edit2]

Babylonian War Elephants upgrade to Armored Elephants for post-iron setting

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 08-09-2009 @ 00:50 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 08-09-09 11:11 AM ET (US)     15 / 18       
I know EME was already clear in his explanation, so this is a bit offtopic and goes to our Pinneaple fish
Didn't you see the screenshots? And why would anyone make Athens Minoan
The screenshots don't give any information about which civ is featured... Minoan, greek and phoenician have the same kind of buildings () If they had the diplomacy window open, it would be no doubt about which civ is he referring to.

Also ES has made some weird stuff in other campaigns: like civ switching at Voices of Babylon. Why don't they just let Babylonians for all the scenarios? That is beyond my comprehension. Even in the last scenario of Voices one's egyptian or greek (sorry i can't remember) lol!
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 08-09-09 12:36 PM ET (US)     16 / 18       
I thought that the player name was the name of the civ.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-09-09 01:48 PM ET (US)     17 / 18       
Also ES has made some weird stuff in other campaigns: like civ switching at Voices of Babylon. Why don't they just let Babylonians for all the scenarios? That is beyond my comprehension. Even in the last scenario of Voices one's egyptian or greek (sorry i can't remember) lol!
Do you mean the Nineveh scenario? I think you are Egyptian for the purpose of priest range (nabbin' a couple of villies is a real pain) and catapult triremes (for BC style D-Day landing).

I did have a go at putting in the Babylonian civ (via the campaign manager tool) but you get smashed too easily. For starters, it is really hard to get the yellow villager at the beginning, and I believe the 2 grey villagers are too far. Also, once you clear the red navy you have nothing to hit the enemy towers.

Okay, you get heavy cats but you can't get them to the shore with a hundred towers firing down!

The scenario was basically designed with Egyptian in mind.


There is at least one other where you are not the correct civ, but I cannot remember which (probably another Babylonian)
volume
Clubman
posted 08-10-09 05:42 AM ET (US)     18 / 18       
that other one IS babylonian played as greek in 'i shall return'

also yes in aoe, if egypt starts in iron, they can research iron shield as though they already researched bronze shield and starting in post iron are equipped with iron shield (+1 pierce armor) ror definitely fixed this to prevent egypt from having armored elephants (which sucks egypt deserves them and they have shields from bronze to iron anyway as included in aom)

minoan's problem can be explained as basically the game still thinks the upped compies are still base impies thereby not applying the +2 bonus. any more you train are also treated as base impies. choson is a similar problem as the game still thinks the upped legions are still base short swordsman thereby not applying the hp bonus and of course training more equals training more base unit short swordsman. im not sure about persia though. you think they got no aristocracy they would not have the centurion. perhaps in post-iron age it means all techs are researched at once and it seems you may build academies as persians in iron age or above as a result despite the academy disabled for persians and the hoplite must be disabled as you cant train the elite infantry for persians but i guess centurion is not disabled for persia which may explain the ror campaign ctesphion. also im incredibly disappointed that they removed the +4 range from trireme, cat trireme and juggernaught from the hittites in ror, after all it does say warships get +4 range. that surely was not an anomaly. >:X

oh did i mention mace score points on religion by being in the iron age and building temples though unfortunately not being able to heal or convert as they cannot train priests still

on a different note in aoe and ror this was not fixed, iron age and post iron age hittite's impies are auto upped to composite bowman and of course thats not a problem is it? hittite compies are powerful with their extra attack and can even match heavy horse archers.

as for the transition units that are not even fixed in ror, i think the developers intended them to be like that so you dont exactly have the most powerful units in post iron such as fully upped broadswordsman instead of legions and regular cats instead of heavy cats so you cant cheat by cutting through trees.

oh i forgot to add to the first point about the greeks having longswordsman which above is the greeks not the minoans. iirc the hints of the wonder scenario in the same campaign say something about note the greeks dont normally have composite bowman therefore they cannot train anymore, however the longswordsman were not mentioned even though they were present (including even in some maps pictures such as the beta?) anyway i think the composite bowman actually are mace and the longswordsman may as well be mercenaries(or to enhance aoe to look good as though greek) as if greeks really had longswordsman (and i think this is based on the ultimate units require a certain tech) the greeks have fanaticism and put them together greeks would have the legion. which would be false. at best, i would say greeks should have broadswordsman like the mace only.

list of extra techs and deficiencies: ever tried playing a civ and researching all techs and noticing that their max number of techs is (often 1 number) away if you were to start the same civ on post-iron age?

Egypt - Iron Shield (AoE Only)
Greece - Long Swordsman (AoE Only)
Babylon - Armored Elephant (despite lack of Iron Shield and War Elephant)
Assyria - None known or thought of
Minoan - Non-manual upgraded Composite Bowman lack +2 range bonus
Hittite - Composite Bowman
Phoenicia - None known or thought of
Sumer - None known or thought of
Persia - Centurion (despite lack of Aristocracy and Academy units)
Shang - None known or thought of
Yamato - Armored Elephant (despite lack of Elephants)
Choson - Non-manual upgraded Legion lack +80 HP bonus
Rome - None
Carthage - None
Palmyra - None known or thought of
Macedonia - None known or thought of

[This message has been edited by volume (edited 08-10-2009 @ 10:43 AM).]

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