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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Save Macedonia! (Or Not)
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Topic Subject:Save Macedonia! (Or Not)
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 07-15-09 08:54 PM ET (US)         
Yes, I know, I know. Absolutely no temple, no upgradable siege, and no fortification! HOWEVER, bear with me. Macedonia in Bronze can be lethal. Cheaper siege, fully upped cavalry(minus nobility), 2-pierce-armor hoplites, and the sweet satisfaction of not having to worry about Bab/Egypt priest rushes! (It works on everybody else!)
So I say to you: Macedonia may be the worst civ in the game, but give it a chance! (It's also a bit of a newbie civ-siege with easier floodability, giving a bit of room for mistakes.) Do not...neglect...the Macedonians!

This message presented by the Holy Roman Empire's Committee to Save the Macedonian Civilization.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
AuthorReplies:
irwinner
Clubman
posted 07-15-09 09:56 PM ET (US)     1 / 28       
in rm games macedonians struggle under standard strats. you can't really go toe-to-toe with a compie bronze war (wheel will eventually kill you) but if you can pull off a hoplite+stone thrower bronze rush you could force the game in your favour. as these units are slow i would recommend going for the tc rather than the woodies. maybe a cav+st combie followed by a single hoplite (cav to chase villies whilst st finishes tc).

however, experienced players would probably go for a tool rush strat, with axemen a bit more capable of chasing the woodies

problem in dm is if your ele rush didn't do anything special you are out of the game (although that anti-priest touch should help you a little here).

i wouldnt say mace are the worst civ, but like any of the "new" 4, you need to do something different to win. lol try hitting random and getting minoan in dm or greek in rm...
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 07-16-09 09:49 AM ET (US)     2 / 28       
Mace isn't "that" bad in RM. Their added LOS gives them a very good Tool Rush. Bronze army of Compies and Mass Stone Throwers, along with the best Hoppies in the game.

The problem (obviously) is everything is so slow. Villagers, Compies, Stone Throwers, and Hoppies take forever to move across the map. You just have to keep pushing forward by building more military buildings for each area you take on the map.

I'm never disappointed when I get Mace in RM.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-16-09 06:51 PM ET (US)     3 / 28       
Ok greeks in RM are terrible, but i don't get the point of Minoan in DM, irwinner: they have helepolii and Hcats...you don't need anytinh else to attack, or defend XD.
irwinner
Clubman
posted 07-16-09 07:53 PM ET (US)     4 / 28       
Im not too familiar with Minoan in DM, but you know if you come up against them just flood them asap with eles (persian), scythes (general) or even HHA (yammy etc) and you really throw them off. It is lengthy to get the siege up and they have no real quick/cheap meat shield to respond with (centies also slow!). If you let them build up, research the siegecraft/crafsmanship and subsequent slow upgrades, and let them build a mass of slow training and moving siege them you will be in trouble.

Like I say, i am not familar enough with the civ to write them off, just showing how i would probably take them on 1v1. ive tried compies then siege and even centies then siege but wasnt successful.

if playing islands, or even medit on dm then you could try and take sea. minoans should a bit better here (depending on enemy). i may be mistaken but maps like hillz (reveal on) tend to get the dm treatment?
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-18-09 04:12 PM ET (US)     5 / 28       
Yeah, land maps tend to be way more common in DMs nowadays. But i think an acedemy+Compie combo could be useful, at least until they get siege, but i think i'me even less experienced with minoans than you are. (I don't think researching armored elephants or HHA would be much faster than researching ultimate siege units).
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 07-18-09 06:31 PM ET (US)     6 / 28       
Siege is worth it, though. I don't care who you are. I can stop a Carthage or Persia ele rush...with HCats. Guess what'll kill a Babylonian priest/tower rush? HCats. There's only three rushes alive that can touch an HCat rush, especially if you play with Mace or another siege-friendly civ: A Choson or Roman Legion rush, or Egyptian scythes/16-range priests.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
irwinner
Clubman
posted 07-18-09 07:47 PM ET (US)     7 / 28       
But i think an acedemy+Compie combo could be useful, at least until they get siege, but i think i'me even less experienced with minoans than you are.
- i'm really not that experienced, and even in my golden years i wasnt the best of players. i could never keep up with most players, as i mostly played for fun rather than getting into the "click-fests" of tool blitzing and the other various "expert strats". With ror i loved the random civ element, as it really did show the expert players from the rest (some players could spend the initial 10 seconds coming up with their strat in rm and dm based on their immediate surroundings and the civs of each player).

on the minoan suggestion, academy + compies may be okay but will still get crushed by a ele, scythe, or even ha rush (if you know how to pull it off). Although if playing for fun (ie rookies or noobs) then such a combo could fair better.
(I don't think researching armored elephants or HHA would be much faster than researching ultimate siege units).


Assume iron start:
cat upgrade (siege w/s)
siegecraft (market)
heavy cat (siege w/s, after siegecraft finished)
plus engineering, alchemy, ballistics etc

With this strat you cant rush, as your initial stone throwers are slow to train, and slow to move and even vunerable against villie attack! Even with the cat upgrade they are weak. You need to hang on and go for a mass of say at least 50 before attacking (but obviously keep training more and more, and getting them forward). This is where i agree a minoan would be good.

with heles:
craftsmanship (market)
hele upgrade (siege w/s)
plus engineering, alchemy, ballistics etc

Like with cats, i wouldn't recommend heles as a rush strat. the ballista wave wouldnt do too much damage, unless you have a bit of luck with taking out a few units before the other player responded.

Minoan can mix these 2 strats (going for an initial hele mass then mixing in later waves of hcat). Again, this is assuming they are not rushed by something like scythe early in the game.

With armored eles:
iron shield (storage pit)
armored ele upgrade (stable)

But you can rush with normal eles, with their upgrade kicking in after the first few waves(?). Im not sure what other upgrades apply (storage pit?) so eles seem to be v good at rushing (imo).

HA:
chain mail (storage pit)
heavy archer upgrade (archery range)
ballistics, craftsmanship, alchemy...

Again, ha and hha differences are small so the first waves of ha can really upset another player before the upgrades kick in!
volume
Clubman
posted 07-19-09 05:30 AM ET (US)     8 / 28       
hey you got to admit macedonia did conquer all of greece, egypt and persia and pretty much the known world around that time even with their slow and poor siege army
Basse
Clubman
posted 07-19-09 08:37 AM ET (US)     9 / 28       
Their cents should have more hps, cents is the only unit that macedonia is really specialized in. Their siege sucks and so does their cavalry (imo)
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 07-20-09 03:30 PM ET (US)     10 / 28       
- i'm really not that experienced, and even in my golden years i wasnt the best of players. i could never keep up with most players, as i mostly played for fun rather than getting into the "click-fests" of tool blitzing and the other various "expert strats". With ror i loved the random civ element, as it really did show the expert players from the rest (some players could spend the initial 10 seconds coming up with their strat in rm and dm based on their immediate surroundings and the civs of each player).
I myself had a decent LAN career, but I stuck to LAN games because I didn't like the competitive nature of IGZ. I haven't played MP in a while, either.
You can defnitely tell who's the expert and who's the rookie based on a random-civ, random-map game. That's almost always how I play.
Frankly, experts sometimes forget one crucial thing: IT'S JUST A GAME.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
Gumble
Clubman
posted 07-21-09 03:59 AM ET (US)     11 / 28       
Gumble does not care about what anyone says, Gumble loves all civs as they love him.

Gumble has studied history (ancient and modern), and he has come to this conclusion: Advanced technology HELPS, Great Leaders HELP, but the greatest advantage any army can have is (God's favour first), and then a battle strategy or fighting style never before seen by the opposing army. The Huns conquered (in land mass) far more than Alexander the Great ever did, and even defeated the leading super powers of the day including Persia, China, Rome, and Byzantium. They did this simply using a strategey of massed hit-and-run tattics to confuse and terrorise their oppenents. Although China had the technology, the manpower, and the experiance they fell. Rome and Byzantium were used to fights of two long battleines of heavily diciplined but rigid rank-and-file troops and were totaly out manovoured by the calvary of the Huns.

Macedonia along with any other civ, played in a way never before seen, has high chances of devestating their oppenent. For example, in the right conditons A DM can be won by a pure villager rush. No joke. Simply put any sane commander would not expect this.

AND THAT IS WHY IT IS SO DAM EFFECTIVE

In the right hands...

Too many people say far too much about Gumble. They also claim Gumble says far too much which isnt true.

One man's truth is another man's lie. Seek TRUTH to escape this moral mire.

'Experts' try to analyse human behaviour and the human condition and make grand conclusions. - Its the same as the guy who explains why a joke is funny and kills the joke.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-21-09 03:42 PM ET (US)     12 / 28       
Yeah you can win with only villies, but if you're facing a similar skilled oponent i wouldn't risk it all doing so.
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 07-21-09 09:05 PM ET (US)     13 / 28       
I've done Jihad rushes a lot. A well-executed Jihad rush has vils not only attacking, but building forward guard/ballista towers as well.
I think the rush Gumble is talking about refers to a villager rush, which is somewhat different in that the villagers hope to overwhelm the opponent with superior numbers and floodability, which is the strategy halmarked by battle droids in Star Wars. I haven't tried that one out in MP, but I've won a few Hard AI battles with it.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
Gumble
Clubman
posted 07-21-09 09:30 PM ET (US)     14 / 28       
Villagers are stuffed if the enemy has any sort of armour on. And have you seen 30 axemen go against 1 scythe chaireot? Its meat everywhere thats what it is!

Gumble is talking about a really different battle strategey than what the oppenent is used to fighting.

Too many people say far too much about Gumble. They also claim Gumble says far too much which isnt true.

One man's truth is another man's lie. Seek TRUTH to escape this moral mire.

'Experts' try to analyse human behaviour and the human condition and make grand conclusions. - Its the same as the guy who explains why a joke is funny and kills the joke.
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 07-23-09 05:22 PM ET (US)     15 / 28       
I wish that this game had the ability to record games like AOK did. If so, I would download every game you played and watch Gumble corkscrew innocent newbies and 20xx experts alike. I really would.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
Max_CRAZY
Clubman
posted 07-23-09 06:57 PM ET (US)     16 / 28       
you can download some aoe/ror recorded games from here http://videos.aoenews.com
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 07-25-09 05:57 PM ET (US)     17 / 28       
Interesting. I would guess that those files aren't a seperate file extension within the AOE directory, but instead a playable format with WMP or WMM.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-26-09 12:21 PM ET (US)     18 / 28       
I don't think those game are in any AoE directory.

So Max, how do these people record their games?
volume
Clubman
posted 07-26-09 07:02 PM ET (US)     19 / 28       
macedonia does have best and max units though

centurion - best except outsped by greeks

max armored elephant

also max mercenaries (iirc nobility does not effect them) when included and they fight independently. possibly useful as silent assassins? their los is still low but perhaps theyre more useful versus archer, ballista and towers since they can equip tower shield 1+3

[This message has been edited by volume (edited 07-26-2009 @ 07:05 PM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-28-09 11:10 AM ET (US)     20 / 28       
I know it depends more in the way you sue them, but for me the best units in AoE and RoR are the ultimate siege weapons.

Anyways. I think Macedonians are better in DMs than in RMs because of the AEles. Indeed if you can flood with AEles quickly you are almost unstoppable.
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 07-28-09 11:41 AM ET (US)     21 / 28       
You've got a point, with 4xcoversion resistance they can't be stopped by priests! However with just STs and ballistas they're pretty easily stopped by heleopoli.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris

[This message has been edited by Fruktfisk (edited 07-28-2009 @ 11:41 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-30-09 03:42 PM ET (US)     22 / 28       
But remember that helepolii are very slow to research and train, even more than AEles i think. But is true, if you give the enemy chance to train them, then you're done.
Basse
Clubman
posted 07-30-09 04:18 PM ET (US)     23 / 28       
If you don't have HCs then you're done yes
irwinner
Clubman
posted 08-01-09 11:44 PM ET (US)     24 / 28       
yes mace are good in DM, more so in team games. but as pointed out, they lack during late dm games (siege battles).

in rm games it all depends on what you want to do. they make good tool rushers but can also hold their own in bronze. the key is getting the most out of LOS bonus before the wheel effect hits you.

i have had some interesting persia v mace games (dm and rm).
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 08-03-09 08:02 PM ET (US)     25 / 28       
Considering how those civs are the only ones who lack wheel, i guess they should be quite equivalent.
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 08-09-09 03:28 PM ET (US)     26 / 28       
I'M BAAAAACK! (Just in case anybody noticed my absence.) I picked up the EE CD, and have been studying that game for a bit.
Anyway, remember Persia has an ele bonus, but being able to hightail it outta there faster than anybody else's eles isn't much of a bonus.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
volume
Clubman
posted 08-10-09 05:02 AM ET (US)     27 / 28       
well persia has jihad which can substitute for lack of wheel which is still slow but mace vils (although good at exploring somewhat maybe?) has neither and is easily killed by a fully upped phalanx, centurion, siege and any other unit or tower.

ironically in real life, mace overwhelming beat persia but perhaps thats because mace conquered greece first with their better phalanx and then the combined force of mace and greece beat persia...because think about it if mace and greece was combined into one civ with all their bonuses and techs?

from full composite bowmen and heavy horse archers, to full cataphracts and armored elephants, to full fast and heavy shielded centurions, to cheap full heavy cats and helepolis and a full fast navy. a full economy and priests arent too much a problem as well as units see farther and 4x resist to conversion and dont forget full towers as well as broadswordsmen to act as militia.

if such a civ exist, it may as well overwhelm any other civ and would surely challenge the roman legion.

[This message has been edited by volume (edited 08-10-2009 @ 05:17 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 08-11-09 06:40 PM ET (US)     28 / 28       
I think Hittite would beat the Macedonian+Greek hybrid.

Now using volume's logic this would mean that persia would have: Babylonian+Phoenician+Egyptian Bonuses and IMO is better if we let gree and Macedonians separate.

Also AoE's Macedonia corresponds to the Antipatrid and antigonid dinasties (That's after Alexander the Great's rule), a period in which clashes against other hellenistic dinasties and the rise of Carthage and Rome, weakened Macedonia's influence.
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