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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » No wheel = dead vills
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Topic Subject:No wheel = dead vills
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 04:04 AM ET (US)         
I mean macedonians and persians. No wheel - means that if my vills under attack, I can't run! So CA or cavalry rush is lethal for me when my poor vills are not protected with wall. Soldiers don't help. Enemy kills my vills while I am killing his men.

I'm interested in macedonian experts. Are there any?

[This message has been edited by Blessed_Salmon (edited 06-12-2007 @ 04:04 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
AOE_mapper_newb
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 08:20 AM ET (US)     1 / 28       
I'm a former Persian player and not getting the wheel is a pain in the ***, I say Persia and Macedonia should rely on troops and towers just for defence.

I say they are supposed to be Iron Age DM civs.

Really Usless Villager: posted 04-15-00 08:58 AM ET (US)
Just look at the fourms!! They are dying! Barely anyone posts anything, and with AoK: TC, all the action is over there!!
Beefy the Cow: Yeah, 7 years later we still are getting new campaigns in, new finds in and new post on the forums! My ain't AOE dead?
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 08:49 AM ET (US)     2 / 28       
I don't agree with u.
Macedonia is one of the worst DM civs. AE and HHA - that's all, but these units don't have any bonuces.
As Carthage was developed for DM, as Macedonia was made for RM. It is a strong bronze age civ - I am just frustrated about their vills that can't run away.

Troops and towers? So, u mean I have to tower up all places, where my vills are working? That's not a good idea, and I need my army on the battlefield, I can't have too much soldiers at my base. And what soldiers? If u play persians, u keep 5-6 cavalry near your vills? Hmm, perhaps it helps...
LittleFreak
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 11:54 AM ET (US)     3 / 28       
Try attacking first and killing his villies instead. Of course, as Macedonia is rather slow you'll have to be lucky with resources against a skilled player with a faster tribe.

While sausages are tasty, you might cut your finger with that pencil over there.

[This message has been edited by LittleFreak (edited 06-12-2007 @ 11:54 AM).]

Dean McCullough
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 12:25 PM ET (US)     4 / 28       
If you can, that is. If the player you're attacking has plenty of towers, millitary troops already, you're going to be in for it. You might just end up facing his army if he is intelligent and knows where to put his troops.
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 12:39 PM ET (US)     5 / 28       
ok

Persia
When I play persian I have to strike first and it is not a big problem if I have animals to hunt, I can bronze faster even than assy or yammi,
BUT
sometimes there is a bad land with no eles or with 4-5 thin deers - how can I attack fast and hard with this? With bad land I loos my speed and have to defence.

Macedonia
The +2 light radius helps, but not so much and I can't bronze faster then assy or yammi. In that case I want to have an advice from a macedonian expert how to defend with their slow vills?
Max_CRAZY
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 01:47 PM ET (US)     6 / 28       
Persian with no good hunting is the worse RM civ in AOE... No Wheel, no second wood cut, no more than 1 farm upgrade... slow vills, shit eco, no special unit from stone age to bronze age... even if u reach iron, Elephants cost too much and enemy can easily kill your economy with Cavalary Archers.

Greek is the 2nd worse for RM.

i barely played with macedonia, so i dont know well... but looks like its as bad as greek, not eco/military advantage, plus no wheel sux balls.
Nikokol
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 02:26 PM ET (US)     7 / 28       
The wheel is the most precious upgrade in RM I think, especially for the Hittites, which are crap in RM without CAs.

Tribulation Designs
I wish my English was better ...
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 06:52 PM ET (US)     8 / 28       
yeap!
but!
some people play persia in RM and kill their enemies!
Dean McCullough
Clubman
posted 06-12-07 07:40 PM ET (US)     9 / 28       
All a matter of skill I'd say. Some people are shittier than others.

To be fair, some, uh, aren't as good. I guess it all weighs down to that :P
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-13-07 05:20 AM ET (US)     10 / 28       
But an assy expert will always kill persian expert, right?
Dean McCullough
Clubman
posted 06-13-07 12:00 PM ET (US)     11 / 28       
Not if the persian expert starts in a nice spot, is more fluent in his expertise, and knows hotkeys.
Max_CRAZY
Clubman
posted 06-13-07 12:24 PM ET (US)     12 / 28       
of course if im much better than my enemy i can own him with any civ... in aoe an expert can beat 7 newbies vs 1 or 3-2 inters vs 1.

if both players have aprox. same |v|... of course the better civ will make a big diference... out of 100 games i would barely lose 1 game if im assy/yam and my enemy (who has same |V| as me) is using a slow civ such as greek.
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-13-07 06:16 PM ET (US)     13 / 28       
Persians can kill in DM, but what about Macedonia? It is much worse in DM then persia, but also hard to play in RM. So, who knows how to play Macedonians well?
LittleFreak
Clubman
posted 06-14-07 02:31 AM ET (US)     14 / 28       
The problem with Mace is that it's slow. Both, economically and militarily.

You shouldn't rely on hoppers at first. If you decide to attack in bronze, better combine your cheap stone throwers with cavalry or composites. You can still mix in some hoplites to mop up later.

While sausages are tasty, you might cut your finger with that pencil over there.
Dangrimm
Clubman
posted 06-14-07 09:29 AM ET (US)     15 / 28       
Macedonians shine when under the control of the a.i

Thats about all. :P
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 06-14-07 11:07 PM ET (US)     16 / 28       
Persies are really fast in RM - you can Bronze in under 13mins without much trouble if you explore well for animals. They suck in Bronze though, so I never use them in RM unless it's random civs.

As for Macey... tried them out before with Centy's hoplite rush, but it's too hard to execute. And with massed enemy archers, their shield doesn't really help. They're not good for DM either.

And yes, the extra speed due to wheel really makes a lot of difference when your villies are fleeing and rebuilding. It makes all the difference between losing right away and staying and putting up a fight.
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-15-07 01:37 PM ET (US)     17 / 28       
Duan Xuan, I agree with u. Persians could be very fast. Sometimes I bronze in 13 or 12 or even in 11 minutes!! In that case, persian player has to bronze early and make a cavalry rush? Otherway he gets to the bronze war.

And about macedonians - they are weak in DM, also in RM, so what for this civ is?
Dean McCullough
Clubman
posted 06-15-07 01:57 PM ET (US)     18 / 28       
Macedon can do a hopper rush in bronze, thats about it as far as i know. Effective if you're quick, and you're not against a civ that used alot of ranged units. (assyria, you'd be done)
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-15-07 03:12 PM ET (US)     19 / 28       
Yeah, I've tryed Centy's hoplite rush several times with comp. CP was dead hehe
but once I tryed it against my father (he is 45 years old hehe). Well it was gigantic map (I forgot that Centy's hoplite rush is bad for such big maps). While I was searching for his base, then marching with my hoppers and st, he destroyed my wall and started killing my vills! And I realised that I can't run away! However I destroyed his base, his vills ran to the safe place cuz their fast legs... (he was assy). And when I came back, we had a small battle where my hoppers were killed by CA's arrows. Perhaps if I played against yammi, I could kill his cavalry.

Here is the conclusion: macedonians ONLY can kill with their hopper rush on medium/large map against a civ that doesn't use CAs.
Am I right?

P.S.: perhaps there is a reason to combine compies with STs, but I haven't try this.

[This message has been edited by Blessed_Salmon (edited 06-15-2007 @ 03:13 PM).]

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-15-07 05:49 PM ET (US)     20 / 28       
The best way to play Mace against experienced players is to use villager and axer line of sight bonus to find enemy in late Stone Age and attack upon entering Tool with some upgraded Axers.

Upon entering Bronze Age mass a huge Compies/Stone Throwers/ Hoppies army. That combination is slow, but can destroy any army your enemies can mass. Don't save resources to go Iron.... keep pressure on opponent in Bronze. Mace Bronze army is probably the strongest in the game IF you can survive with the weak econ.

Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 06-15-07 06:10 PM ET (US)     21 / 28       
There are also some old threads about playing Macedonia, find them with the search function. One of them says that you shouldn't play Mace as if it's another kind of civ - rule one is you must attack, attack and did I say attack? If your macedonian army is harrassing the villagers and buildings of your enemies, odds are that their army isn't harrassing your peeps. If your STs are destroying their houses they need to rebuild them just to increase their pop, to mention just one thing.
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 06-16-07 02:19 PM ET (US)     22 / 28       
I guess Blitz is right - you need to take advantage of Macey's LoS bonus and execute a good tool rush. Once the enemy's econ is hurt, it'll be easier to follow up with a hoplite + ST combination. Otherwise... I really doubt it's going to be possible to beat any archer civ one on one. CAs aren't that bad yet... massed compies are even more fearsome - they're cheap and have 5 attack.
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-16-07 03:09 PM ET (US)     23 / 28       
Find my enemy, using LOS? But everyone can find his enemy without this bonus. Also every expert can defend against a tool rush.
Dean McCullough
Clubman
posted 06-16-07 03:13 PM ET (US)     24 / 28       
The way I see it, if you're on a large map, finding your enemy may be a bit easier with a LOS bonus... At the same time, you'll get to tool faster because your vils will be able to find where the resources are quicker, so you can plop down your buildings in the right spot to get to work. I guess if you're fast enough, you should be able to knick them over the edge...
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 06-16-07 10:55 PM ET (US)     25 / 28       
On a micromanagement level, even if Macey villies are slower than their Assy and Yammy counterparts, their LoS bonus does help you uncover resources faster, and more importantly - don't laugh it's true - avoid annoying beasts that attack you.
Also every expert can defend against a tool rush.
True, they defend better, but tool rushes are executed way more often in expert games than at other skill levels. They do work if you do it right. A 9min tool timing, of course, probably means a 11-12min rush, which would be too late.
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-18-07 06:25 PM ET (US)     26 / 28       
So, Macedonians have to use LOS with a good luck and then make a tool rush, killing or at least slowing an opponent - that's tha case, right?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-19-07 10:41 AM ET (US)     27 / 28       
Blessed_Salmon:

If you are playing somebody with similar skill level as you, and they are either a fast civ/or a chariot archer civ = you would have to have some sort of early attack.

The strength of Mace's army is Stone Throwers and Hoppies along with Compies. All of these units take more time to research/build buildings/mass - than chariot archers do.

If your opponent just finished researching the wheel, has multiple archeries built, and didn't have economy harrassed yet = you lose. You don't have anything to stop him for several minutes.

If you don't like to Tool rush, then plan on making some Cav right when you enter Bronze and raid villagers.

Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Blessed_Salmon
Clubman
posted 06-19-07 01:07 PM ET (US)     28 / 28       
Got the idea. Thx a lot!
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