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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » More Persian thoughts: that sucky Bronze Age
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Topic Subject:More Persian thoughts: that sucky Bronze Age
Imperius Jim
Inactive
posted 01-27-99 11:28 AM ET (US)         
By now we've all read Sheriff's Persian Guide and had a chance to try out some of his suggestions. Recently I've been using an upgraded clubber/slinger tool attack to give myself a cushion to build to Iron. That's not always feasible, though, especially when the rushee's partner counter-attacks and I'm often finding myself in a drawn-out Bronze war using stable units and Slingers. With that premise, I've been going for the following unit-to-unit matchups where possible. I'd be interested to hear other forummers' opinions. Would building an archery range (and Siege Workshop) and getting into a wood-drain situation be preferable to some of these matchups? Note that I'm assuming a Bronze vs. Bronze situation:

SHORT SWORDSMEN/BROAD SWORDSMEN: Don't see much of these but Camels are decent against them. Where possible, I'll use Cavs instead...

CAVALRY: Obviously countered by Camels.

CAMELS: Countered by Persian Camels and supported by whatever units are handy (Slingers and leftover Clubbers/Axers most likely.)

CHARIOTS: Camels and Slingers again.

ALL ARCHERY RANGE UNITS: Once more the Camel/Slinger combo is what I go with here. In the case of Chariot Archers, Camels close the gap and give the Slingers a chance to move into position. If the Chariots run, the Camels follow. If they stay and fight, the Slingers tear into them. Improved and Composites are harder hitters but less mobile.

HOPLITES: Ugh. The ONLY effective counter here (short of walls and towers) is Priests. A half-dozen Hoplites can kill six Cavs, six Slingers, and two Sentry towers (sometimes there'll be one tower left standing.) That's just for demonstration as I rarely build towers anyway. Better to spend the Gold on Priests and gain a couple of these guys since you can't build them yourself. Or you could double-wall and pick them off with Slingers...

STONE THROWERS: Cavs are best here with hit points to survive supporting archer fire and deal more damage when they reach the target.

PRIESTS: For the same reason, Cavs work here. Also, if they're converted, your Camels can deal with them better than vice versa. As for Priests behind walls, maybe it's time to reconsider that Siege Workshop...

TOWERS: Slingers (with Camels or Cavs going after the builders.)

WAR GALLEYS: Your own ships (if you have them) are outranged at this point and your woodcutting is falling behind, so what do you do here? Priests? Abandon the coast? Seems like when I see Galleys it's usually in bunches...

SLINGERS: Not a Bronze unit but still used there. Do Cavs get their charging bonus against Slingers? If not, they're still the best choice, unless you've got a horde of swordsmen (why?) or leftover axers (and Bronze shield.)

VILLAGERS: Whatever's handy. Villager killing is always a high priority.

Like I said, if anyone has any suggestions for better matches, I'd like to hear them.

Also, if I had my way, Persia'd get the Wheel and Chariot (and Scythes) to make up for their Range deficiency. They could also use Siegecraft to make their Slingers fully upgradeable. That would ALMOST give them a decent ranged unit. And throw in Coinage for the late game (all of Persia's post-Tool land units cost Gold.)


AuthorReplies:
NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 01-27-99 12:43 PM ET (US)     1 / 16       
Other than the obvious avoid a drawn out bronze conflict I would counter with towering, bowman (compie/improved) and priests. Your biggest problem would be ST's. Don't get in a woodchopping contest with persia, you'll lose.


[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 01-27-99).]

Ender
Guest
posted 01-28-99 08:04 AM ET (US)     2 / 16       
not so obvious to me, I feel persia has the worst iron age in the game, even yamato is better, win the game in tool, if you have to fight after tool win it in bronze, if they game goes iron your military sucks and your economy sucks so hope you have good allies or your better than your enemies.

Lets look at this supposedly good Persian iron that everyone is avoiding bronze for.

Barracks - fully upgraded legions, these are pretty cool but nobody uses them usually.

Priests - fully upgraded normal priests, again a good unit but no chariot archers so your gonna lose more than the enemy, also no coinage.

Academy - none

Archers - short range fully upgraded heavy horse archers, not a bad unit but with the poor economy you'll have fewer than the enemy and they will outrange you. Elephant archers, priest bait.

Stable - Armored elephants which are faster, but not enough faster to win against helepolis, horse archres, or priests, still more useful than normal against catapults. Cataphracts, probably not a good idea to use cavalry in iron as persia.

Dock - best trireme in game, too bad you have 50% less of them from the lack of woodcutting upgrades. They aren't twice as good as others so expect to lose the seas.

Siege - regular catapults without ballistics, these things can be beat even by regular horse archers.

Towers - guard towers, these are okay, nothing special.

Big economic minuses- No artisanship or craftsmenship, so with your maximum upgrades persia cuts wood at .75 units/second, this is slower than phoenician starts with and slower than every other civ from mid-bronze on.

No wheel - harder to run, harder to forward build, slower gathering on everything. You cannot run away from speed 2.0 units so you better avoid every commonly used bronze unit in the game.

Coinage - all your units use gold, not having this is a killer.

Ballistics - makes catapults almost useless, makes horse archers much worse than other civs with same upgrades.

All in all I see persia as an extremely weak versian of phoenician, there hunting isn't as good as phoenician wood cutting, and thier only other bonuses are offset by the huge economical minuses.


Ender
Guest
posted 01-28-99 08:13 AM ET (US)     3 / 16       
okay my last post got too long, lets look at persian bronze now.

Barracks - fully upgraded broadswordsman, wouldn't suggest using these but they are as good or better than every other civs except romes.

Priests - fully upgraded priests, these are as good as they come but again your probably going to lose more than enemy since you don't have chairot archers.

Academy - none

Archers - Composite bowmen lacking 1 range upgrade, in early bronze these are as good as any but minoans, by later bronze they are only lacking 1 range which isn't such a bad thing, at this pt in the game nobody has ballistics so its not a disadvantage yet.

Stables - All bronze age stable units except chariots, and all upgrades. This is probably your best bet, go heavy on the camels.

Dock - Normal war ships, at this point in the game you aren't as behind on the woodcutting so there is a chance you can take the seas.

Siege - normal stone throwers, as good as any but the big boys, hittite and sumerian.

Towers - same towers as everyone else, lacking 1 range upgrade but thats not a big deal.

economic minuses that matter - no artisanship, no wheel, yep thats right in early bronze your economy is almost as good as everyone elses, by mid bronze your wood cutting is trailing off a bit, and if you get to iron everything is behind. The lack of wheel makes the hunting bonus less than spectacular, since against good players to hunt you need to expose your villagers, your villagers can't run so they die, thus offsetting the food they got by hunting faster.

IMO Persia needs to win the game early not late, iron rushing and hoping to win with the fast elephants/poor horse archers might work sometimes, but against an equal opponenet I'd go with the tool rush followed by camels. You need to kill villagers to equalize the economy.


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 01-28-99 11:41 AM ET (US)     4 / 16       
In case it wasn't clear in my post, try and win the game with persia in tool because you will befast.


Sukhoi_27
Clubman
posted 01-28-99 12:01 PM ET (US)     5 / 16       
I think Persian is the worst civs of all. They have nothing in bronze. I hope the creator will just take out Persian civs once and for all to save people from using it.


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-30-99 01:14 AM ET (US)     6 / 16       
Ender: Once again you miss the point. the sherrif dosn't mean an iron to iron game, he means a quick iron jump to get a couple of those Eles to smash the enemy with. In bronze and iron if persia's trying to match any other civs economy, then persias gonna loose. Why? Persia has no wheel, no artiansan ship and no plow(big deal here). however no wheel or chop-chop upgrade means low wood supply. so if you tool rush dosn't work(say you haven't the skill for it) and your bronze rush of camels dosn't KO an opponent whats your best course? Stay in bronze and be outproduced and then have the enemy iron on ya anyway, OR hit'em with War elephants so freaking early that their totally unprepared. So whats the deal? no in any prolonged battle persia starts to lose...no upgrades means less effecient vills.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-30-99 09:15 AM ET (US)     7 / 16       
ENDER: "IMO Persia needs to win the game early not late, iron rushing and hoping to win with the fast elephants/poor horse archers might work sometimes..."

ELIJAH: "Once again you miss the point. the sherrif dosn't mean an iron to iron game, he means a quick iron jump to get a couple of those Eles to smash the enemy with."

I seem to have missed the point too. Isn't that what Ender just said? The point is that there are so many things that can go wrong getting to Iron fast, like not finding enough hunting, or gold on a hill or in a cliff that I would agree with Ender. You should win the tool race if you find game. Use your biggest advantage when you have it. Tool troops so dominate their Stone counterparts that to bypass that attack in a concerted attempt to jump to Iron is wasting a perfect opportunity.


Keep your stick on the ice.

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-30-99 11:07 PM ET (US)     8 / 16       
What i mean is that not everybody can do a tool rush. and to stay and do a slug fest in Bronze is stupid.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 02-01-99 09:58 AM ET (US)     9 / 16       
Oh, I see what you mean. But no one probably got the tool rush perfect the first time. I probably lost the first 30 or so games I tool rushed. I considered it an investment -- some lost games now for at least competency in tool rushing later. Now that I have another strat at my disposal, I am free to evaluate my position at about 4 mins and decide whether to hit in tool or bronze.


Keep your stick on the ice.

Ender
Guest
posted 02-02-99 09:18 AM ET (US)     10 / 16       
okay here is why I think the iron rush aspect is a bad move for persia. First off persia has the worst economy in the game, subtract from that the 1800 resources for iron and you should probably die in bronze on the way, but if your wheeless villagers do manage to survive, I'll assume you don't have a ton of resources when you reach iron. So lets look at your options, you can make poor ranged horse archers in small numbers, these will die to any large bronze army. You can make fast elephants, these die to priests and hoplites, and probably large chariot archer/comp armies. You can build heavy cav, this is a joke. You can build longswordsman, which are very bad at killing villagers. You can try to take the seas.

Now assuming you aren't playing morons you won't be able to kill the enemies with an early iron army, so you need to wait until later iron, by the time you get the kind of army you need to win with the enemy probably is going iron as well. They probably have a better economy since you spent 1800 resources early, and they probably already have a standing army to supplement. I just don't see how an iron jump is gonna win the game against an equal opponent. Though its fun to do, it isn't a good strat, especially with persia.


Mr Hanky
Inactive
posted 02-02-99 12:54 PM ET (US)     11 / 16       
I'm a big Persian fan. And I am forced to admit that against competent opponents 90-95% of games a Persian can't provide killer punch early enough to be devastating. But it's that 5-10% of the time when you do that keeps drawing you back (kind of like making one or two pars in a round of golf).

Most often in team games I find myself trying to pull a strong tool rush, and then a "respectable" 18 minute bronze. (Only respectable because of the massive tool attack). Often I won't even try to iron, because as everyone says, 1800 resources is a lot to pay for short range triremes and turbo elephants. I could give about 1400 resources to my hittite ally (+350 cost of tribute) and enable him to upgrade to HCats or HHA and actually do some useful damage to opponents.

I do bronze, because you need bronze units, even sucky bronze units, to defend after 20 minutes have gone by. If I do iron it will usually be in the mop up stage of the game. Which is another time frame the Persians excell at. Fast AE can clean up a whole lot of an opponent's left over town while your allies are actually fighting.

Mr Hanky


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 02-02-99 03:36 PM ET (US)     12 / 16       
Ender: Priests and Hoplites? Who use spriests and hoplites. First: Persia's "worst" Economy? It isn't worse untill you lose Shorefish and animals to hunt...So you can get the 1800 res for a good iron relatively fast...Oh and my vills will be killed? Well i will be using Cavs.Cams to kill your vills. not to mention my villagers will never been in huge clumps at any resource patch. And all i need for 5-6 eles is 850 food...which i can easily gather, or beg for 1-200 from an ally. and what'll kill my eles? Priests? well sorry most people arn't prepared for an eles raid. Also hoppers? Um ya need a stable for that and most people prefer Archery ranges. Oh and whats your good strat for persia that dosn't involve ironing?

Tool rush? Um dosn't always work. and with people doing that all the time they pick persia it'll be like saying...Hey don't bother checking achievemnts i'm gonna toolrush!
Bronze rush then fight in bronze? What happens when enemy Comps and Cas Hit the field in large numbers? You can't use your Stable cuz' cavs/camels will never close in on the units before they die. you can't use comps cuz they'll have less range. And you don't have Ca.
So what do you do with persia? their "worst" economy can support a quick iron jump that'll stun the enemy and Not to many units can counter Eles.


Ender
Guest
posted 02-03-99 08:33 AM ET (US)     13 / 16       
Like I said, every single non-cavalry unit in bronze can beat elephants. By the time you go iron, attack me with camels/cav in bronze, build up a large enough force of elephants to really bother a large group of archer based units either I've killed you, I've killed your ally or I'm iron myself. By iron jump I'm assuming you aren't going military. By worse economy I mean you don't get that 2nd wood upgrade or the wheel upgrade, thats a killer. My plan with persia is usually to tool rush one player, if I can't pull off the tool rush I'd rather stick in bronze and try to win there, the longer the game goes the worse your tech tree and economy gets.

I personally always build a stable, I think not doing so is a huge mistake, you need to scout, you need to be able to make cav in case of a large stone thrower army.

If people start assuming I'm tool rushing I'll be happy, because I'll start cav rushing instead, since they are ready for a tool rush I'll out-economy them and win that way.

That lack of 1 range on the composites will not make you lose a game, lack of 2 range might but not 1 range. I need about 1 maybe 2 more comps than an opponent to stay even in the comp race.


[This message has been edited by Ender (edited 02-03-99).]

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 02-03-99 12:47 PM ET (US)     14 / 16       
Good point ender. I love when my opponents assume I am going to all out tool rush, especially I have found because I have "the reputation." You can then send a clubber or two or a few slingers and when u still bronze in 15 mins your cav encounter 5 fully upgraded axers and some slingers to counter your massive tool attack that never came.


wedsaz
Clubman
posted 09-22-00 04:14 PM ET (US)     15 / 16       
top
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-16-01 11:51 PM ET (US)     16 / 16       
toppity twiddle

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