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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Greek Fastboom!
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Topic Subject:Greek Fastboom!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 09-29-03 05:39 PM ET (US)         
Just kidding.

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AuthorReplies:
LinkTheBrave
Clubman
posted 09-29-03 06:44 PM ET (US)     1 / 26       
Hmm, do I smell spam?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
I'm proud to be an American, a citizen of the the greatest country in the world.
I think, therefore I am.-Rene Descartes
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 09-30-03 03:08 AM ET (US)     2 / 26       
Lol.
Adamant Hoplite
Clubman
posted 09-30-03 10:40 AM ET (US)     3 / 26       
Bah!!! I was wishing there was one!! Greeks! My favourite civ! I had always longed a fastboom!! Now you... Ah-Noooooo!!!

Thou hast murdered my dream, wedsaz!!


_,~`Adamant Hoplite`~,_ - The Imaginary and Fantastical Hellenic Sovereign King
380 Health, 52 Attack, 30 Hack Armour, 12 Pierce Armour, Very Fast Speed, Inconvertible, etc, etc, etc.
"The people of Hellas shall rise - Hellenes, sharpen your Kopis, raise your Dory, wield your proud Hoplon in gleaming sunlight - time has inevitably arrived to cast down the corrupted Imperials."
AoEH | Zeus Heaven | MEO | Hoplites | The Allerian Empire
GreatWizard
Clubman
posted 09-30-03 04:54 PM ET (US)     4 / 26       
Hehehe. Good one.

In a population 50 game with fast civilizations banned, original AoE, Greeks have a decent chance. But even under those extreme limitations I think I would want a civilization with decent archers.

Do I hear you say "Minoans"?

Just kidding.


Pay no attention to the ManBehindTheCurtain.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 09-30-03 05:03 PM ET (US)     5 / 26       
hehehe... Well I do have some strats in mind for greek (and others), but I don't think any of them would cause people to switch to greek as their main civ. They might curse a bit less when they get them in random civs, but that's about it. Sort of a "barely surviving with (civ)" series.

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Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 09-30-03 06:55 PM ET (US)     6 / 26       
I am crap without range weapons, 50 pop or otherwise. I admire people who can rush with soldiers because I can't ever seem to get it on in time. Knowledge is one thing, but ability is certainly something else. Quite funny, I still meet EE experts etc who can't become good AoE or RoR players, despite the apparent 'simplicity'

My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 09-30-03 08:30 PM ET (US)     7 / 26       
Ok, I'll spill it: Hoplites and Stone Throwers. That's more micromanaging than I can handle, but I've seen it done. It's also very hard to counter if done right.

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Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 09-30-03 09:48 PM ET (US)     8 / 26       

Quoted from Phill:

I am crap without range weapons

Yes, I can remember my proud army of scythe chariots being crushed by Phills compie regiment

Welcome back wedsaz


DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
I of course meant bastard in a positive way! - Kor
I just sort of chop away at it when it gets long enough. The ladies love it. - Obese, on shaving
Lorenzo is kind of like that relative everyone knows about but won't talk about. - Crimson Knight
We already knew about the mass murders and gang rapes and ethnic cleansings, but now they've resorted to ENCRYPTING PEOPLES ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTS! - drahnier
GreatWizard
Clubman
posted 10-01-03 12:40 PM ET (US)     9 / 26       
Hey Phill, interesting point. But have you actually run into people who claim to be EE experts? Boy, for me that game was boring just about right away. I cannot imagine anyone staying with it long enough to become an expert. Geez, jet bombers showing up to nuke your clubmen, what a concept.

I think the problem for EE experts, and even for AoK experts, and even to a certain extent RoR experts is not that AoE is simpler. In fact, AoE is in a very significant way a lot more complex than the later games in the series. AoE doesn't have any shortcuts.

Your AoK expert orders a group of buildings to each produce a dozen or so, oh, say, pikemen, and then sets a gathering point where the pikemen will report for battle. The expert is then free to move on to management of the ever expanding economy, making new TC's, setting gathering points where the villagers will automatically begin gathering resources and then switching back to see how the battle is going, arrange the pikemen into some kind of formation, and setting them on patrol or some other kind of repetitive movement cycle.

In AoE, you have to instruct the building to produce that archer every single time you want to produce an archer. And then you have to go round up all your archers and send them to the front. You have to order the TC to produce a villager each and every time you want a new one and then you have to go find that villager and find a place to put him to work. Then you have to go find your archers again and make sure that they are actually engaged in military activity. Actually a lot more complex, wouldn't you agree?

Just a side thought here, have you ever seen the damage that can be done to an attacking force by a really, really large group of fully upgraded Minoan composite bowmen standing on a hill? I mean a really, really large group.


Pay no attention to the ManBehindTheCurtain.
GreatWizard
Clubman
posted 10-01-03 12:56 PM ET (US)     10 / 26       
The speedy Greek Hoplites and stone throwers?

I suppose that's possible against the right opponent and given the fact that since it is seldom seen you would have the element of surprise. I remember getting shellacked once by ballistas and chariots. It was partly due to my getting caught in a poor defensive position but the chariots ate my stone throwers and my emerging force of chariot archers fell apart under the onslaught of ballistas firing from a hill behind a wall of trees. I was trapped between trees and water and could not move forward and could not retreat in time. As I say, I got shellacked. As I recall, the game was, like nearly every game I ever played, fun.

Details of your Greek strat? Do you envision this as a mobile attack force or primarily defensive? Since we are discussing boom here I assume you mean a high population limit game. And if high population how do your hoplites survive against the massed archers that dominate high population limit games? For example, how do Greek hoplites and stone throwers survive against the force that Minoa can put on the battlefield at the same point in the game composed of, for example, hoplites, compies and stone throwers?


Pay no attention to the ManBehindTheCurtain.
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 10-01-03 03:22 PM ET (US)     11 / 26       
Interesting points, GW. However, I disagree that EE is boring and the situation with jets and clubmen is extremely unlikely to happen. As for expertise I'm probably not the best to judge, since most people are better than me.

My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-01-03 05:12 PM ET (US)     12 / 26       

Quote:

Just a side thought here, have you ever seen the damage that can be
done to an attacking force by a really, really large group of fully
upgraded Minoan composite bowmen standing on a hill? I mean a really,
really large group.

Many times. Have you ever seen a pack of compies "melt" triremes?

Quote:

Do you envision this as a mobile attack force or primarily defensive?

Definitely attack. Can you imagine stone throwers trying to hit moving chariots among your own houses and villies? Ugly, very ugly.

Quote:

Since we are discussing boom here I assume you mean a high population limit game.

Not necessarily. There was a time when "boom" meant anything over 24 villies and 0 boats. In this case I meant a standard large econ, which you may as well aim for since greek (like about half the civs) is gonna be slow to bronze no matter what you do.

Quote:

How do your hoplites survive against massed archers?

Firepower is more likely to be directed at the STs. If not, then the hoplites will likely last much longer than the archers do.

Quote:

How do Greek hoplites and STs survive against Minoan hoplites, compies and stone throwers?

Better than greek cavs against minoan camels.


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GreatWizard
Clubman
posted 10-01-03 08:49 PM ET (US)     13 / 26       
Phill-

Sorry if I overstepped there but I definitely did mean to say that I didn't take to the game. Hope this does not drag my karma down. On the dogma front, although I did not play EE an enormous amount, I did play enough to realize that the jet plane clubman thing was quite unlikely. However, even if you enjoy the game, you will have to admit that jet plane-clubber is possible.

As always, pay no attention to . . . well, it's in the signature there, isn't it.


Pay no attention to the ManBehindTheCurtain.
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 10-01-03 09:16 PM ET (US)     14 / 26       
No problem, I just thought it was a little judgemental and inaccurate. They would have to be worse than me to get out epoched enough to be that far behind, and since it is impossible to be a worse player than me... Plus, of course, you can decide to play only one age out of 15, or only 3 of them etc. Add custom civs to that and you have variety galore.

What I like about EE is that whatever you build has a counter. You can't rush with one unit, you have to use a combined force. The bonus and custom civ system make it easier to focus on the areas of your army you want to improve, and your econ if you want. I think it was Kronic Skier who said that unlike RoR, managing your econ is not an exact science - I think that's true, although some starts work better than others. But mainly I like it because it's the only RTS game to give me an adrenaline rush since RoR. AoK and AoM bored me to tears.

Regardless of how much repetitive strain injury you are saved by queueing, formations, attack-moves etc, you still have to be good with what you get. I don't think how fast you can click keys should be the measure of how good you are as a player, and I'm old enough as it is without bringing on arthritis any sooner than necessary - hey, I'm the greatest player ever, but my hands don't work anymore. I'll pass RoR, even with some things made easier, is not a game you are going to be good at because you have played AoK or EE - I gained new respect for it when I came back after playing EE a lot, thinking I would be better, and turned out to be just as crap because it's a whole other pace.


My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

SnakeEyes
Clubman
posted 10-02-03 01:42 AM ET (US)     15 / 26       
Personally, the whole epoch thing in EE is cool, Having an advanced civilisation tear apart a bubble of ancient culture and technology...

`..`._.SnakeEyes..`._.
Resident Ferry-Master
.:Woad creations:Blackstorm Inventions:.
AoE is my game,
SnakeEyes is my name!!!

GreatWizard
Clubman
posted 10-02-03 09:21 PM ET (US)     16 / 26       
OK, you convinced me. I will load it up again and give it another try. But if any jet planes show up and nuke my army of clubmen . . . well, I'm gonna be upset.

Pay no attention to the ManBehindTheCurtain.
Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 10-03-03 05:25 AM ET (US)     17 / 26       
EE is a great game, but it never really took off.

DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
I of course meant bastard in a positive way! - Kor
I just sort of chop away at it when it gets long enough. The ladies love it. - Obese, on shaving
Lorenzo is kind of like that relative everyone knows about but won't talk about. - Crimson Knight
We already knew about the mass murders and gang rapes and ethnic cleansings, but now they've resorted to ENCRYPTING PEOPLES ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTS! - drahnier
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 10-03-03 02:00 PM ET (US)     18 / 26       
I think one problem was that everyone was really waiting for AoM, but with Empires on the way I think we'll see a bit of an EE revival. Like us they have a small core community which could just get revisited.

My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

Dangrimm
Clubman
posted 10-04-03 02:28 AM ET (US)     19 / 26       
Quote:However, even if you enjoy the game, you will have to admit that jet plane-clubber is possible.

Tut-tut now, my friend, in world war 2, the itallians attacked tunisia or some other country like that, they assaulted with bombers and ground troops, they fought back with spear armed tribsemen, and thats a fact...

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-04-03 03:27 AM ET (US)     20 / 26       
Well, the zulus did pretty good considering... and the mongols, and various native american tribes and... not poland vs germany in ww2.

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GreatWizard
Clubman
posted 10-04-03 06:20 PM ET (US)     21 / 26       
Dangrimm-

Well, sure, okay Dan, there is historical precedent. And that was Ethiopia by the way. It would be my position that historical precedent does not necessary make for interesting and entertaining game play. I bet the Ethiopians would concur. I repeat, if jet planes show up and nuke my army of clubmen, I am going to be upset.

Earlier today I was replaying an AoE scenario, the Wonder of the World from the Egypt campaign and scout ships, short swordsmen and archers keep showing up before I even have time to get my economy running. It is a long time since I last played that campaign and I don't recall what I did to beat it before. I think I need some jet planes.


Pay no attention to the ManBehindTheCurtain.
Adamant Hoplite
Clubman
posted 10-04-03 06:38 PM ET (US)     22 / 26       
*The Oracle of Delphi appears before the eyes of GreatWizard*

Put your trust in skillful flesh, haste!
A far reaching stick renders the stoutest blades useless.
Put your trust in the wooden walls afloat,
Bide the Second of the Dimensions from layered stone,
And when the Wheels roll, massed weaks shall conquer.

If you need me to decipher it, do ask.


_,~`Adamant Hoplite`~,_ - The Imaginary and Fantastical Hellenic Sovereign King
380 Health, 52 Attack, 30 Hack Armour, 12 Pierce Armour, Very Fast Speed, Inconvertible, etc, etc, etc.
"The people of Hellas shall rise - Hellenes, sharpen your Kopis, raise your Dory, wield your proud Hoplon in gleaming sunlight - time has inevitably arrived to cast down the corrupted Imperials."
AoEH | Zeus Heaven | MEO | Hoplites | The Allerian Empire
GreatWizard
Clubman
posted 10-04-03 07:42 PM ET (US)     23 / 26       
Nice turn of phrase AdHop. I got it. Ships first, even before economy. It feels very wrong for a person with experience mostly in multiplayer. Multiplayer is always about the strongest economy, you have to get food and villagers as soon as possible. This one rewards you for chopping wood first. As I say, it just feels wrong even if it works.

It ends up being too easy though. I sank the first scout ship and the transports with troops never arrived.


Pay no attention to the ManBehindTheCurtain.
Adamant Hoplite
Clubman
posted 10-05-03 07:44 AM ET (US)     24 / 26       
Troops not landing at all? Wow... I have to try that somedsay.

Well... I actually meant create some villagers really quickly at the start... Since, besides ship, I also meant creating Bowmen to defend, just in case. And putting the trust in "Wheeled massed-weaks" (Chariot Archers) later on.

I guess I still have a lot to learn myself.


_,~`Adamant Hoplite`~,_ - The Imaginary and Fantastical Hellenic Sovereign King
380 Health, 52 Attack, 30 Hack Armour, 12 Pierce Armour, Very Fast Speed, Inconvertible, etc, etc, etc.
"The people of Hellas shall rise - Hellenes, sharpen your Kopis, raise your Dory, wield your proud Hoplon in gleaming sunlight - time has inevitably arrived to cast down the corrupted Imperials."
AoEH | Zeus Heaven | MEO | Hoplites | The Allerian Empire
Colonel here
Clubman
posted 10-05-03 01:19 PM ET (US)     25 / 26       
Hey, I am coming back player. About the Wonder of the World scenario. I survived the biggining the following way: I trained short swordmen on all gold I got, than added axemen and bowmen and got an army enough to take out the landing party. Than I built two new docks (I left the old one to the slaughter of Scout Ships) one dock builds a ship the other one upgrades it to War Galley. Than I got 5 ships and had enought to stop any naval threat.
Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 10-05-03 10:05 PM ET (US)     26 / 26       
Welcome. Is Wonder of the World GoG?

DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
I of course meant bastard in a positive way! - Kor
I just sort of chop away at it when it gets long enough. The ladies love it. - Obese, on shaving
Lorenzo is kind of like that relative everyone knows about but won't talk about. - Crimson Knight
We already knew about the mass murders and gang rapes and ethnic cleansings, but now they've resorted to ENCRYPTING PEOPLES ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTS! - drahnier
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