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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Cataphracts in Iron
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Topic Subject:Cataphracts in Iron
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storm
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 09:56 AM ET (US)         
Just curious but does anyone us catapracts in
iron as their main unit? And if so why and how.


AuthorReplies:
Ender
Guest
posted 01-03-99 11:06 AM ET (US)     26 / 43       
except while you are trying to take out my docks with your fire galleys I'm coverting them with my priests, then you have to face my triremes and my fire galleys. Fire galleys lose to massed triremes, seen it in game, know its true. They sit there and jockey for position while the triremes rip them apart.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-03-99 11:38 AM ET (US)     27 / 43       
The key point is massed triremes! They have 13 AP and 10 range , 16 shots kill a Fire Galley. Thus in a large battle ie 15-20 many Fire Galleys die before they do any damage to the remes. Trust me.. I play lots of island games. To defend your docks vs FG's use towers/priests/and ranged units. Then at least you need your own ranged boats and lots of em. If you can out ship me that badly I was toast on the water anyway! Don't get me wrong.. FG's have their place indeed.I trashed a minoan 12 galley raid yesterday on 2v2 med w/8 FG's many created as he was attacking ( I was iron he wasn't). It like cavalry vs comps or CA's.. when you get 15-20 ranged units together the non ranged ones take heavy losses.


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-04-99 01:00 AM ET (US)     28 / 43       
i dont know why you guys think a massed tireme attack is effective against a fire galley attack you say you beat them all the time?...maybe you guys play against people who dont know sea warfare...fire galleys dont get ripped apart by any massed tirme attack...when they get in range( dont tell me you guys have towerws on the water top warn you when they come)you have time to get off maybe two shots before you click on your tiremes and attempt a massed fire on one unit...the fire galleys are fast enought to move around the tireme fleet(even flets that are bigger then thme) and wipe them out....as for your priests on the water defending your dock?...i hope the water is that important to you that you dont pay attention to your town being invaded...thats fantastic that you play lots of h2o games....fire galleys still dominat tirmes on the h2o...that was their entire point on adding them in ror


Ender
Guest
posted 01-04-99 06:43 AM ET (US)     29 / 43       
well ricktsu I think your 100% wrong, all I can say is that in game every single time I've seen the 15+ trireme vs 15+ fire galley battle the fire galley's got their butts kicked. As for priests guarding my docks, since I usually have 4 or 5 docks next to my town its not a problem, and I would only biuld them if I saw you building a lot of fire galleys.


PippinTook
Banned
posted 01-04-99 10:48 AM ET (US)     30 / 43       
Now I havn't accurtly used the Fire Gally...but overall hand to hand units aren't turning out that great in AOE...espically slower ones.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-04-99 01:53 PM ET (US)     31 / 43       
I just ran some tests of 15 remes vs 15 FG's the scenario builder. All boats were post-iron fully upgraded. I have to admit I think I was wrong ! I placed each set of 15 basically in two rows with the fron about 8 tiles apart so my remes could easily kill a couple of FG's before they could get next to me. No matter what I did with the remes I lost every battle and I can't even say it was close. The computer player always managed to get his FG's spread out and around me and my remes were quickly toasted. Even with ballistics many shots missed as the FG's closed. Then I turned the battle around and my 15 FG's wasted the comp's remes. The comp basically ran away and tried to dance and fire but to no avail. The whole point is that the FG's, once they are in range, do over 4 times as much damage per sec. as the remes. Ender if you can try this same test and teach me how on the open seas to beat 15 FG's w/15 remes I'd appreciate. I admit I am not very good at tactics and win my games by a combination of fast attacks and overwhelming economy, not by expert unit control in battle.
However, FG's really can't do much near the shore vs a good player w/defences like towers/priests and missile weapons on shore. If you make FG's I will tower my docks and other shore areas I want to defend. Sure when I have little to defend with and you've hurt me on land you can burn my docks and any other building near the shore down, but it won't be easy until then.
Sorry, that this thread has turned into a FG thread, but I do have a new and greater respect for them !- neilkaz -


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-04-99 06:10 PM ET (US)     32 / 43       
Intresting..how many fire galleys were left? I wonder how 15 catapult remes would do versus them. I also wonder if they would still be superior with two groups of 25 ships.


Thrawn
Inactive
posted 01-04-99 08:51 PM ET (US)     33 / 43       
Cat remes don't work that well against fire galleys unless they have ballistics (and not that well even then). It's too easy to evade a cat shot, and once the fire galleys close to within the minimum firing range, the cat remes are all dead.


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-04-99 10:11 PM ET (US)     34 / 43       
yes cat tiremes are effective vs f.galleys...they do twice as much damage to a fire galley....that was the purpose of the introduction of fire galleys to offset the ability of a huge tireme fleet and to make the cat tireme an actual worthwile upgrade...yes fire galleys are horrible by the shore that is why they are so powerful at sea...since most of the newer boards in ror have h20 it has become a strategic element to the game....now instead of massed tiremes you need a more effective distribution to gain control of the waterways.....and ender about your 4 docks you build....i think im a good enough player not to attack 4 docks w/ a small fire galley fleet that broke through...that wouldnt be my purpose to wipe out your sea capability...in reality the docks that you have wouldnt matter to me in the slightest....i would use the sea attack to throw you off as i invade your town...or maybe i would send a couple of sea attacks in as i build up my land forcers let you concentrate on my apparent sea attack and by the 3rd wave of f.galleys and tiremes(of couse i would use tiremes i never said they were useless) you would be dealing w/ a land war also...note that no where in this post did i say i would beat you....i just think maybe you underestimate strategy by 100%.....


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-04-99 10:44 PM ET (US)     35 / 43       
Everytime several FG's were left. I also tried 9 reme/w/6 cat tri's in back( w/ballistics) and that did no better. Maybe if they were phoe jugs ! One problem is that FG's have speed 2.0 vs 1.75 for remes. Indeed I was amazed how bad I got beaten. I play a lot of phoe in watery games and usually you the wood bonus to win the sea .. which prevents the enemy from building FG's effectively. - neilkaz -


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-04-99 10:45 PM ET (US)     36 / 43       
hey neil thanks for the post i appreciate your honesty in running that scenario....my main point here was that since all i play is ror...most people do not use firegalleys...and many people underestimate them...it is hard to kill firegalleys with tirmes..there is really not much strategy to counter the f.galley attack with just tiremes..since i have never come on the recieving end of firegalley attcks i do not build a defence to them..but if i was i would build tiremes and block in the rear w/ c.tiremes...the tiremes would effectivly be a death squad and do nothing more then buffer the fire galley attack while c. tiremes pound on them from behind the tiremes...


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 10:17 AM ET (US)     37 / 43       
I'll definantly try more to takeover the sea with carthage now :-). I didn't realize fire galleys were quite as good as they are.


Chanchito
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 11:16 AM ET (US)     38 / 43       
I have fought many sea battles vs fire galleys and here is what I have found. In smal numbers that are close to even they will beat normal triremes. If you use combined arms using cat triremes behind regular triremes (alchemy, plus ballistics upgrade) I have gotten 1 dead fire Galley for every 1.5 cat trireme shots, and generally beat them. The person that said firegalleys can run around triremes forgot one thing, they have to stop to shoot. Then the triremes get to shoot back. I also try to have a line anchored on both shores. This prevents the fire galleys flanking you. Also, fire galleys cost gold. Gold is scarce, and I will win the war of attrition. A really dangerous combination is the CIV's that get triremes and fire galleys. Having triremes firing from the rear over fire galleys is a killer. Fire Galleys may be a little to good, but its not a major problem.


Ender
Guest
posted 01-05-99 11:55 AM ET (US)     39 / 43       
you need a partner to test the battles with, the computer micromanages unit movement better than a human, and micromanages concentration of fire worse than a human. The key to beating fire galleys is to concentrate on 1 at a time. Run a bit if you need to, and repeat. Its a pretty darn even fight in the wide open sea, try to get into a narrow place and you'll waste them.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 12:58 PM ET (US)     40 / 43       
Since this is actually a Cataphracts in Iron thread, I was waiting to see if a new thread would open for this topic. IMO, the purpose of the fire galley is two-fold.

1. It comes out of the dock quickly, making it very good for combatting people destroying your dockblock with hand to hand troops. They will fill the void in front of the dock, which is also helpful. They will bite it badly against missiles, though.

2. It is incredibly useful for destroying transports. It outruns them, while the others ('cept Greek) simply pace them. A couple FGs is a very cost-effective way to deal with those invasion fleets of Cents and HCs. (Those 200 HP go down much faster, easier and safer than the 1500 or more HP that are about to land.) And if they are one of those unfortunate civs that only get light trannys, hope they swim well in armor.


Keep your stick on the ice.

lshaul
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 01:05 AM ET (US)     41 / 43       
Cats have their uses. Esp. in AOE.


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-07-99 11:37 PM ET (US)     42 / 43       
thats fine keep using your tiremes and ill keep controlling the seas....


The_Who
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 01:04 AM ET (US)     43 / 43       
All i know about fire galleys is that it is so funny to watch them flame a unit that wandered too close to the shore


The Who

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