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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Cataphracts in Iron
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Topic Subject:Cataphracts in Iron
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storm
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 09:56 AM ET (US)         
Just curious but does anyone us catapracts in
iron as their main unit? And if so why and how.


AuthorReplies:
Ender
Guest
posted 12-30-98 10:50 AM ET (US)     1 / 43       
In ROR I've never seen anyone build a cataphract. Every single civ now has a counter to the unit. Scythe chariots own them, helepolis own them, even priests own them. Legions own them, HHA own them, Triremes own them, camels can still overwhelm them occassionally, especially considering you spent all that money on the upgrade. And even composite bowmen do ok against them.


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 11:52 AM ET (US)     2 / 43       
The unit itself is a decent unit. IMO the bigger problem is the cost of the upgrade. I dont agree with a few of the units that Ender mentioned, although the introduction of Scyths has definately taken away _allot_ from Cataphracts.


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 12:16 PM ET (US)     3 / 43       
Only time I've used them in ROR is when I'm playing a random civ game get yamato..and am facing catapult armies. Normally yamato is better served with getting heavy horse archers. They should have made cataphracts a good deal more powerful to make them worthwhile.


epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 02:12 PM ET (US)     4 / 43       
Cataphract is by far the useless super unit. The 2000 food, 850 gold upgrade cost is just prohibitive.

A good idea to fix this is to give cataphracts 240 hp. Then they will become good cat/helio killers. The seige weapon dominance problem will be eased.


Josh the Great
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 04:11 PM ET (US)     5 / 43       
I would rather use HHAs for an iron attack, probably supported by a few infantry and some catapults/heles. The HHAs are not as powerful as cataphracts and get torn to bits by siege weapons but throw a few villagers or priests in there to take care of that. I don't mind using cataphracts as supporting units if I can afford them but the upgrade is expensive. Oh and BTW: another iron age unit, why are them ele's so hungry!

Live long and conquer


Josh the Great

KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 05:05 PM ET (US)     6 / 43       
I used to build Heavy cat/cataphracts in classic AOE for defending my Heles against enemy cats.

Now in ROR, I use Scythes for doing that. Scythes don't need gold and that's why it is a much better combo because Heles use enough gold already.


Brey


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 11:01 PM ET (US)     7 / 43       
Cataphracts simply cost too much for what they do.. the upgrade cost is extreme and still the cost per unit is high unless you are yam. Epic_Hoplite is correct in saying that increase their HP to 240 would help make them more worthwhile. As for fighting cats/Hcats with HHA .. unfortunately the HHA have to stop to fire and then if there are massed cats the HHA usualy get hit back. I can only imagine cataphacts being employed under low pop limits and usualy by yam. Clearly, in most situations they aren't either worth the upgrade cost or if you canmake them you could/should be winning easily and without them. IMO - neilkaz -


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 11:15 PM ET (US)     8 / 43       
This is what bothers me about the game the most. The shang "problem" doesnt even measure up.

In history, infantry was the most common unit and were the "grunts" of the army. Cavalry/more advanced cavalry were excellent at taking out ground troops. First of all, I think that ES should make some major changes. But lets face it, ES and MS are pretty ignorant at times. ES is decent, but they have no care to listen to anything we, the gaming community, have to say. Players who play single player could care less, so why not release an online patch just to humor us?

This is what I propose: Make cavalry stronger like epic_hoplite said. Make the upgrade to phracts about the same price as the scythe upgrade, except with food instead of wood.

All archers cannot hit units within two tiles. The reason I say this, altho this may be a bit disputed, is because in real life if some guy is hacking away at you you wont be able to fire arrows right in his face.

Infantry recieve large amounts of piercing armor, because they should/would carry a shield to block raining arrows on them. Infantry should be faster, and the axe upgrade should not be required (they are after all two completely different units, its not like axemen turn into short swords anyways!)

Scythe chariots. Well all I can say is that something should be done with these things. I dont think they are completely dominant, but they are definently too powerful for not costing any gold...any ideas on this one?

More civ bonuses. I think that there should be more bonuses for civs. Not any particular bonus, but I would like to see another bonus for yamato (faster firing rate on HA/HHA would be nice, so that they arent considered a weak civ anymore...I used to like em)
I would also like to see assy get engineering on their catapults.

Notice how I didnt mention the little shang problem,because I think it has been debated enough as it is. Tell me what you think about these suggestions, im tired, and I have a headache so I probably wasnt thinking well when I wrote this anyways


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 12-31-98 01:24 AM ET (US)     9 / 43       
All of those are very good suggestions. I really doubt ES or MS is going to do anything on em. Just have to hope AOK is better in those respects.

One note on the scythes, I liked em a lot at first but now I'm starting not to like em. Why? Because I think they are too dominating. The upgrade is too cheap for em..if you plan it right you can hit the scythe button the second you iron. There really isn't anything that can stand up to em until late iron. About the only things that kill my scythes in early-mid iron are other scythes .


Desert_Fox
Clubman
posted 12-31-98 01:42 AM ET (US)     10 / 43       
I have to totaly agree... The other night I was playing a 2v2v2 (as always) when my Pard, FanatiC KaBaN was having some touble and had to run to my base... The second I hit Iron I ploped the Scyth upgrade in the cooker... and a few min later.. I had not only pushed the guy that was attacking KaBaN's town away, but I had slaughtered his villagers... While he was wadting his gold I sat back with the ability to trib away my now useless gold..

Maybe make the upgrade cost more?

DF


Desert_Fox
Clubman
posted 12-31-98 01:55 AM ET (US)     11 / 43       
Also there needs to be another super unit, say a tracker? (replacing scout). This would have attack and hp about 3/4 of Cav.. so maybe 110hp, 6 attack 0 armor. This would alow Non-Chariot civs to play on after they have run out of gold... These would in no way stand up to Scyths.. but they would give Yamato, Persian, Geek ect a CHANCE in Late Iron.

Also.. why no Composite Bowmen super unit? I think that there should have a Iron Upgrade to these units. As it is.. Minoan had Cats and hele in Iron.. nothing else... thier comps just get rolled over in Iron...


Just random thoughts of a mad man.. err fox.. :-)

DF


Ender
Guest
posted 12-31-98 06:56 AM ET (US)     12 / 43       
I think the mistake with scythes was the 0 gold cost. They should of cost like 15 gold each so they wouldn't just be an endless supply unit. That way late in the game with trading you could still dominate with them, but throwing away 30 to attack someone would actually hurt you. As it is now with a high pop limit 70 villagers can keep biulding scythe chariots forever nonstop.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 12-31-98 10:23 AM ET (US)     13 / 43       
My opinion on super units and scythe is different than most. Re: scythe if it were not for the wide area damage this upgrade would be expensive ! Just think, scythe only have 20% more HP than regular chariots, they only have 2 more armor and 2 more attack. They have no piercing armor, so hit them with missile weapons. Use walls to slow them up and prevent their easy infiltration. Most importantly, use lots of towers to defend against them. I vividly remember the aftermath of a huge mid iron battle between my Shang and a Roman opponent. I had more stuff than him and at the conclusion of the battle my 10 remaining scythe ent into his heavily towered to pillage ! While winding their way past many buildings/farms/and towers everywhere my scythes took tons of damage from the towers(and Rome can't even make Guard Towers). Scythe get wasted by hele's. IMO, the scythe upgrade costs the right ammount. .... The HHA upgrade is somewhat too expensive since their attack is only 1 AP more and their HP is 50% more. The legion upgrade is priced reasonably well since legions are far superior to long swordsmen due to having twice as many HP. I think the AE upgrade is too expensive..they are nice to have and the siegecraft can be useable, depending on the civ. The Hcat upgrade is priced properly since they have twice as many HP as a cat, IMO. I think the jug upgrade costs somewaht too much food. The cent upgrade is expensive but cents are way stronger than phalanx so if the cent upgrade cost just a bit less it would be perfectly priced IMO. The cataphact upgrade should cost about 1/3 of what it does !! Hele's shoot twice as fast as a ballista and I feel that upgrade is properly priced.


epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 12-31-98 10:48 AM ET (US)     14 / 43       
Scythes are most useful when supported by archers or balistas. Scythes + balistas is a very powerful combo in early iron. It works great against scythes only players.


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 01-01-99 06:02 AM ET (US)     15 / 43       
I completely agree with Ender and have thought this for some time. A simple add on cost of 10 or so gold for each Scyth unit in addition to their normal cost now would dramatically change the use and effectiveness.

AoK will be a completely different game people and I would definately recommend checking up on all the info they have over at Age Of Kings Heaven right now just to see some of the early info released.


Ex_Akaval
Inactive
posted 01-02-99 03:24 PM ET (US)     16 / 43       
I agree with Desert Fox about making Composite bowmen superunit, because I often had troubles with minoans, when I ran outta gold the are just about helples, the only thing they have is navy, no balista towers, no chariots nothing.


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-02-99 03:45 PM ET (US)     17 / 43       
To make sythes cost gold would be totally cruel! However 'phracts should cost less, and maybe do like 2 more damage. Oh someone said HHAs are expensive for only +1 aP and +50% HPs. also they get +25% speed. HHA's are worth it. however Juggers are useless. The only good thing siege ships are good for is taking out towers. but hell Heles or STs with engeneering clean up Juggers. Triremes STILL dominate the water. firegalleys cost gold, and have 1 i repeat 1 range. Their not worth it. i'd rather have Triremes. Um welll Legions are awasome...But 2 legions can't take one Cent. believe me i tested it. only roman legions do anygood. hell choson legions blow even more! why? No iron age armor upgrade. a greek cent has enuf armor just from the storage pit(+6) to take on choson.


JustGreg
Inactive
posted 01-02-99 06:18 PM ET (US)     18 / 43       
Well...I don't use cataphracts. I've seen hardly anyone use them.

All I have to say...


-JustGreg

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-02-99 06:19 PM ET (US)     19 / 43       
HA's have 2.2 speed HHA's have 2.5 speed.. for sure and I tested it !. Jug's/Hele's/ST's w/engineering all get 12 range. I usually only make more than a token(if any ammount) of siege ships unless I am Phoe. With other civs I make make a few cat tri's to back up my remes vs FG's and/or to hit towers. Jug's cost too much food just to have 48% more HP, 1 more range, and 14 damage area vs 9 for cat tri's. IMO Jug's should cost only 1300 food or so. Only w/Phoe will I make jug's if I got food coming out of my ears maybe !If phacts had 2 more AP, 1 more Piercing armor(PA) and 20 more HP they'd make more sence.


Spam
Clubman
posted 01-02-99 08:32 PM ET (US)     20 / 43       
There is only one possible use for Cataphracts: rubbing it in. When your opponent sees that you can spend 2000 food and 850 gold on a COMPLETELY WORTHLESS upgrade, he will be so awed by your economic might that he will resign. Maybe.

Spam


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-02-99 10:12 PM ET (US)     21 / 43       
i dont know if you took notice but tiremes do not stand a chance against massed fire galleys sure 1 range.....i use fire galleys always in iron and i guarantee i have never lost the seas to any tireme fleet...there is simply no arguement on this one....tiremes due 12 damage and firegalleys do 24.....both have 200 hitpoints and sure the fire galleys may cost gold but watch how fast they burn any attempt to build a dock...but then you guard your dock w/ cats or towers?...ill send in a couple of tiremes or cat. tiremes....point being fire galleys dominate the water


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-02-99 11:11 PM ET (US)     22 / 43       
Seems to me that triremes start to beat fire galleys when you are using very large numbers of em. If you have say 20 triremes vs 15 firegalleys quite a few of the firegalleys won't even make it in to attack. The triremes will then be able to kill the rest that get into range.

In small groups though firegalleys do awesome. They do 30 damage with alchemy and fire once per second. Triremes do 13 damage with alchemy and fire every 1.8 seconds. Big big difference.


Angel Mack
Clubman
posted 01-02-99 11:16 PM ET (US)     23 / 43       
I have NEVER used them, so I can't comment


Angel Mack

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-02-99 11:39 PM ET (US)     24 / 43       
I agree with what was said, Cataphracts either need to be better, or make the upgrade cost far less. As for the SCs costing gold, I disagree. It is one of the few that can keep the game from going on after the map has run out of gold until someone decides he has better things to do with his time and quits. What I would like to see is a gold-free version of *each* troop. They should only have about 30-50% as good armor, attack, etc, but would give a means of finishing a game that has run its course.

Just one guy's opinion.


Keep your stick on the ice.

ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-03-99 01:44 AM ET (US)     25 / 43       
like i said tiremes still dont stand a chance against firegalleys....take note that once the seas lose control to the firegalleys you wont get the chance to build more tiremes....by the time you are pumping out more tiremes i ahve already built tiremes while the fire galley war is going on...you wont have docks to build any tiremes..and the coast will be locked down...i really dont care either way because firegalleys simply rule tiremes..i just played a 3v3 tonight two of my team members lost there connection but i played on and i repelled a 2v1 tireme attack over and over again w/ firegalleys...the only reason i didnt take their docks i s because i had to deal w/ a land war also..and w/ sume...control of the seas is not important..you have to remeber that the fight wouldnt be just tireme vs firegalley while the villagers just sat around...you would have to repel a land attack at the same time....i was a big tireme fan myself but once fire galleys were introduced i quit using them as my main sea power...


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