You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.22 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Helepoli are strong, but can be beaten
Bottom
Topic Subject:Helepoli are strong, but can be beaten
tetra46
Inactive
posted 12-29-98 04:43 PM ET (US)         
I am a helepoli lover and have won many games using this weapon but you must play them against the right foe. Just over two months ago my friends and I started testing games to find out if hele's was the most deadly weapon. I always thought that if you could mass at least 20-25 hele's then your chances of winning must be around 85%. But against the real big boys (and some of my friends believe I am also one the the better players) I was soon put into my place. Follows is what happened in some of the multiplaying games we played. Please note that we normally play our muiti-games up at Wireplay (British based with some of the best players around), because of no lagging.
Or we play direct without a server. Anyway I played most of these testing games using Assyrians because of their speed and ofcouse their hele's. If Yamato came in early (as they should) I could normally hold on. The out come of this testing changed my mind about helepoli within hours not days. Against the best I was smashed time and time again. One of the best players called Enki beat me every time and in one of the games I amassed 25 hele,s and just as I started to attack I was hit by war elephants in three different positions and I thought no problem until I notice Priests following with cats (but not many) behind them. My hele's fell like stones, smashed to pieces. Enki had Priests healing elepants and cats (not converting my hele's) at the same time as he was attacking, I starting attacking his Priests but then out of the blue I was attacked from a forth position by Chariot Archers and though I used other units to attack back my hele's were now almost destroyed. The nice thing about his attack was that when my main units were destroyed his elephants just carried on and hit me lelf right and center. In a later game, also against Enki (by the way he used Egyptians in the game above), to prove he could use almost any civ (he only uses Yamato for attacking in bronze) he used Palmyram, a slow starting race and with weakened Priests. Again I was hit by elephants but this time they were Armored and them rotten Priests were still there. In the end he proved to me that Hele's can be defeated. To rub my face in dirt the next game he gave me no chance to even build up a mass of hele's. What he is good at is tactical planing, and this is something I am normally good at too. I did finally beat him but I used one of my old tactics and this maybe of some use to any of you who are reading this. I used Assyrian again making him think I was building hele's, but I attacked him with groups of Chariot Archers (15 at a time) and stopped him gathering the surplies he needed. After sometime he did come at me with elephants and Priests but my archers were too good. He started to moan that I was not using hele's as this was a test game too but within a minute I attacked him with 5 Hele's (yes only 5) to make him think my main attack had started. He pulled back some units to counter this only to allow me to hit him with heavy cats and heavy archers, I soon got the upperhand but the only hele's I used was them 5. So if anyone else believes helepoli can be defeated or not, I would love to hear your view. The above games were all 13-17 minute bronzes, iron age times are not needed because of the tactical play of the games. I end by stating that in no-way do we always play the same type of game, also, something to remember is that if you play against a player who uses hele's or cats, if that the case, that player needs gold and a lot of it too. That's where I errored in thinking hele's were great, by massing loads of Chariot Archer's you can hold on to your gold until you are ready to attack. Your archers only need wood & food and if you keep attacking tactically you could gain the time you need to hit back big.

tetra46


AuthorReplies:
postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 05:01 PM ET (US)     1 / 22       
While I do not believe Heles to be overly dominating, I must point out some serious problems with your examples.

First off, having priests follow your Eles to heal them is absolutely useless. priests cant heal and walk at the same time so I dont know why your opponent wasted his gold on them. His priests would have blindly followed and once the Eles fall it only takes one shot to get rid of that moronic priest who was innocently walking behind.

You said he only had a few cats behind. Guess what, thats all it takes. 5 Cats can take out 20 Heles in seconds, maybe even to the point that not one single shot would touch the Cats. Even less Heavy Cats are needed.

Of course Heles can be defeated, but every unit has its own time. Yamato cannot stand up to Heles at all. Period. Hittite could not laugh harder at Heles. All archers die to Heles. Cats destroy Heles. etc etc etc...


Spam
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 05:51 PM ET (US)     2 / 22       
Actually, helepolis can be used to good effect against hittite if you combine them with armored ellies. This is how carthage can beat hittite in DM. The hittite must target the ellies with his cats, and the helepolis (sent in one by one, from different angels and spaced out) can kill the cats on a one-for-one ratio at least. Try it out in the scenario editor if you like - I was very surprised at how well carth did against hittite.

My 2 cents.

Spam


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 06:53 PM ET (US)     3 / 22       
Well, if you want to combine units into this scenario, then I guess my Priests will just convert your Eles. Or maybe I will answer with my own Armored Eles.

Anyway, if you think that heles are a good unit against Range 15 Large Splash Damage 300 Hp Heavy Catapults, then I dont know what else to say.


tetra46
Inactive
posted 12-29-98 07:33 PM ET (US)     4 / 22       
Thanks for the input. Keep it up.

One thing I agree with.....Hittite Heavy Cats can and should beat Hele's.

But Hittite HC's are much easy to destroy now with RoR. Two things you might like to try. 1....Attacking cats with scouts has been overlooked by some players. Mind you, a bit of skill is needed but your be surprized at the results, and a scout only cost 100 Food. 2....Try camel's, their speed out run the cat's attack. But the idea I have used in many a game really gets up some players noses, that is to form groups of villages and send them to attack the cats, but be careful, not too many at once. If you have upgraded the villagers hit points just send two at a time, and send them into the nest of those cats. Watch how the cat's start killing themselfs, believe me I have used this many times with a 60% chance of a win and these only cost 50 food. Remember though, learn the skill first to iron out the weaknesses and when you finally do it a smile will light up your face but not your foes


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 11:38 PM ET (US)     5 / 22       
Scythe chariot/helepoli combo is better than a scythe chariot/catapult combo cause most of the time your cats take out just about as many of your scythes as they enemy's units. Helepoli fire faster than cats, and can still defend themselves when left alone. So I say wheel a few SCs in, draw out the enemy, sacrifice SCs to take out catapults, and clean up with helepoli/ballista


Phantom_lord_72
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 04:00 AM ET (US)     6 / 22       
To be honest, all I ever do is be Greek and make ALL seige weapons, not just 25 helopoli, about 50 of each seige weapon, cats just to take buildings and towers, and the hopoli to sit in back and kill anything close to the cats. I attack from two points if possible so they have to fight 50 seige weapons there and another 50 here, works good( on DM ).


Ender
Guest
posted 12-30-98 06:47 AM ET (US)     7 / 22       
actually priests with the speed upgrade can walk and heal elephants at the same time. Or at least they could in aoe.


tetra46
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 02:29 PM ET (US)     8 / 22       
Thanks for all the input folks. I like the idea of attacking with cat's and hele's, this I must test. Also the SC's need to be worked on a lot more, this I will test too. I will set up a new topic when testing your new ideas are finished...thanks tetra46


KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 05:05 PM ET (US)     9 / 22       
To Tetra46,

Assy helepolii are not the best. They only have range 10. The only strong hele civs are Roman, Minoan, Greek and Carthaginian who have range 12. You should have tried the test with these ones.

To Sting & Phantom_Lord_72,

Sting says Hele-Scythe combo (AAA).
Phantom says Hele-HCat combo (BBB).
I always use AAA, except when the enemy has no siege weapons at all. AAA also has the advantage that you have a fast superunit and once you got the upgrade, they don't cost gold. BBB will always loose against Hittite or Sumerian, while AAA still got a chance.

But whatever, with Roman, you can use them both, hehe.


Brey


tetra46
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 07:42 PM ET (US)     10 / 22       
Hey Bray I do agree but Ass are still a great bronze race that if used right (and I feel I can) reach iron so quick that many a foe don't even get the time to upgrade to Heavy Cat's. I do thank you from your input though and I did know that the 4 civs have a 12 square range. I believe that when testing civ's against civ's and units against units we all seem to forget about the different scenarios. If hittite can gain a strong advantage on high ground then it can be so hard for any civ to beat them, ofcouse if they want to win they may have to come off high ground and in some cases because players attack but never break through soon run out of gold. Then hittite can attack.

Just to enlight you to the lastest test. Hittite cat's (22) smashed to bits by 5 groups of 4 camel's with a 75 pop. This test is continuing but we may have to build the scenarios ourself to get a better picture.

Results to follow as soon as posible...tetra


KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 07:54 PM ET (US)     11 / 22       
Hittite cats against camels? Sounds great. Is it with the speedy Palmyran camels?


tetra46
Inactive
posted 12-30-98 08:13 PM ET (US)     12 / 22       
Spot on Bray. Only drawback is the dam civ can be slow at first because of the 75 food cost. But with early walling (and don't upgrade wall) one can gain some time to give the Palmyran villager it real advantage. Please note that if your wall is attacked early don't bother about rebuilding the damaged walls, just build a second wall right behind your first wall. This is why I stated not to upgrade, with a few archers behind you can gain the time needed. And for the players who are getting a bit fed up with early Slingers, we have already found that two or three scouts murder them, one scout kills 2-3 slingers. It can be surprizing the things you can do to gain time if you have had one of them bad start through having a bad scenario.

More ideas or tips are welcome...tetra


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 08:33 PM ET (US)     13 / 22       
wow, I must be missing something here. Send scouts or peons against against cats!? Only if your opponent is completely clueless about mixed armies. You should always have back up for your cats. Use Some HA behind your Cats, or a number of different combos. I can make any unit look weak by comparing my unit of choice against it, which is what this discussion is turning into. Mixed armies are the key here in the end. When comparing single units, its rock/paper/scissors. And why are you using camels in the first place? Cavs, Chariots, Scyths all work much better. Oh well, I could go on but forget it.

Ender, even if the priests could heal the Ele, which I dont completely agree with, it would be minimal. Maybe about 20 HPs at the very most, which means one more shot from the Hele at the very most. I would rather try to convert some of the heles, much more fruitful. Then heal any eles that are left.


[This message has been edited by postapokalyptic (edited 12-30-98).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 11:39 PM ET (US)     14 / 22       
Hele's are an awesome unit due to speed of inflicting about 40 hp of damage but still they get trashed by cats/hcats with engineering. As for fighting cats with scouts/camels just try it vs any fair player who knows how to mixed ranged units with those cats to kill the charging units.


Kleitus
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 11:59 PM ET (US)     15 / 22       
best and only recommended way to kill helos --- cats or heavy cats, preferably with engineering.

other ways --- tons of scythes -- 2nd best, but still is iffy

armored ele, ele archer combo --- they lose a lot, but they do kill em off....

nothing else works all that well....


tetra46
Inactive
posted 12-31-98 00:29 AM ET (US)     16 / 22       
To Postapokalyptic

Why do you keep telling us what we already know. OFCOUSE a mixed force is the answer, all good players know that, incuding myself.
I am not stating that any single unit can beat cat's, hele's or dog's. The ideas is what this Topic is about, trying out things that are different since the release of RoR. Lets face it if you don't try you don't gain. In any game one improves by, well!, losing. I am a very strong Chess player who has won many tornaments and money over the years, but only by improving my game and this improved at a greater rate when I lost games rather than winning them. Not to say I threw the games. RoR is new and I don't believe everything has been tested like AoE yet, I/we also always test at first with a single unit and then start mixing units to find the results that suit the player. Not all players like the same civ as you know. Enki (who I have already mentioned) believes you seem to be talking about DM games to a point. Well that's his view but he has made it clear to me that you are wrong about Priest being able not to heal elephants while attacking. He also says he can prove it and would take anyone on in a default RoR multigame, but I would like to add he would need to know that the player he faces is using hele's.

Myself, I am only interested in other people's ideas, like games that they have won or lost by using what they think are their best units. This topic is only about beating hele's because alot of players think they are too powerful, I don't, and thing the power they do have is about right.

Because of your well welcomed input though Enki and I and will be starting a new topic soon based more on your idea's and then we can give a clearer picture if we (rather him) think your game play could have faults within it. Personally I believe Enki is one of the best players of AoE and RoR with another player called Philboy. But these players don't win all the time just most of the time, and are they good. They use skill and tactics to the highest level and have already proved to other players who believed certain things would not work have worked. They don't attack with single units, but like you stated, mixed units. But what makes them different is the speed and control over hotkeys, I can't do it and admit it. They put me in my place and I now feel better for it, at least I know my limits. But I finish with a message to you from Enki...."My skill is only down to the hours and hours of muliplaying night after night, and hints from what were better players than me at one time. So I will just mention what I believe is the answer to being a great AoE/RoR player. Simply.......speed with hotkeys plus tactical knowhow".

Well that's it, and I don't care anymore. I thought this was my topic just on hele's. I will add though that Enki is also a strong Chess player but at Chess I am stronger. hehe

tetra46 (Chessplayer at Yahoo Chess)


Bastyrdus I
Inactive
posted 12-31-98 04:55 AM ET (US)     17 / 22       
This is one of the few instances, at least for myself, that I still find cavalry (and Heavy Cav) useful. If you can run up on those nasty things, the range is nullified, and that's it. Get lots of chariots involved if your cav isn't that great. Chariots, CA's, and SC's are great siege weapon killers. It also takes care of any priests hanging around... which you'll often find. Coming in from the sides and behind ensures victory. If you have the patience and the nerve, and are willing to lose some folks, then start an attack on his town at the same time. A small distraction, at best, but it will keep him away from the micromanagement necessary for ballista/hele attacks. Unless he's much better than you. At which time, you resign by sending every single unit you have, including villiagers, after him... my favorite way to die.


-Bastyrdus I

Ender
Guest
posted 12-31-98 06:48 AM ET (US)     18 / 22       
oops wasn't saying the elephant/priest was a good tactic, just saying that you can indead heal elephants while they walk with speed bonus priests.


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-31-98 10:12 AM ET (US)     19 / 22       
I would definently not send priests to follow my eles around in battle, splash damage from cats will take em out easily...

and I know you werent saying it was a good tactic ender, just saying it could be done
I was just saying why I wouldnt do it


tetra46
Inactive
posted 12-31-98 01:28 PM ET (US)     20 / 22       
To Bast

Thanks for your input, and your idea's with Chariots and cav's is excellent if used right. Infact I am more likly to use your idea than others because I hate Priests and Chariots Archers always have done the job for me.

Thanks tetra46


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-31-98 05:44 PM ET (US)     21 / 22       
20 CAs vs 12 Helepoli= 20 dead CAs


KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 12-31-98 08:20 PM ET (US)     22 / 22       
I fully agree with Sting


You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames