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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Specific Civilazation Approaches in Multiplayer
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Topic Subject:Specific Civilazation Approaches in Multiplayer
Composite Bowman
Clubman
posted 01-21-02 06:43 PM ET (US)         
If you're good with a specific civ, then you can post what strategies you use with them. For example, I'm pretty good at archer war with Yamato, but if I try to play Choson War, I get beaten every time pretty much. And hey, you never know, there might be some players here who excel at playing with Persia, or maybe Babylonia...I would like to here your strategy.

Plus, has anyone ever played a 'Chariot War'? I'd really like to see that...

AuthorReplies:
Noble
Clubman
posted 01-22-02 05:18 AM ET (US)     1 / 22       
I once saw afew people playing chariot wars but it didn't excite me enough to join.
CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 01-22-02 03:40 PM ET (US)     2 / 22       
I've played a load of 'Scythe Wars' with everyone using Egypt. But I find Stable Wars more fun.

Say Noble, why not have a stable war sometime?


CenturionZ_1
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Composite Bowman
Clubman
posted 01-22-02 08:20 PM ET (US)     3 / 22       
Soo...anyone have any strategies for civs? And I usually play AoE, though I do have AoE:RoR. Scythe Wars....whoa. And I challenge someone to a 'Yamato War' (not Archer War..)with Centurions and Cataphracts. Man I'd suck at that so badly...
Noble
Clubman
posted 01-23-02 04:46 AM ET (US)     4 / 22       
While we are at it how about a Bowmen war?? lol or axeman war?? maybe even tower war?? bad idea tower war lol.
curious
Clubman
posted 01-23-02 12:36 PM ET (US)     5 / 22       
if u want a quickie, try Persia. Persian elephant rush, if done right, is faster than cho or yamato archer rush, and far stronger.
So why is it a quickie? Cause u live or die in the first 15 min into the game. here's Persia's weaknesses,

1. Persia has by far the worst economy. It can not support massive army for long.
2. If u choose Persia, your opponent knows that you will use elephants, so they will counter with centurions and priests. If they do, u r dead. (Good news is that not too many players use these units so u may get lucky)

I've seen good Persian players with 140 villagers all working on food... so if u are good enough, you can prolong the game even with Persia.
Lastly, Persia is most effective in small to medium map (your opponent can not rebuild) and on 1v1 scenario.
Try it, it's fun and it will be quick.

Composite Bowman
Clubman
posted 01-23-02 11:06 PM ET (US)     6 / 22       
Sadly, I have actually played tower war...
Noble
Clubman
posted 01-24-02 05:12 AM ET (US)     7 / 22       
Persian is one of my least favorite civs. It is a cheap way to win since it is so easy so most experts don't use persian and the only people who do are rooks who will get beaten easy.
curious
Clubman
posted 01-24-02 10:32 AM ET (US)     8 / 22       
Persia is not a rook civilization. It takes a super xpert to master Persia (rooks don't have 140 villagers man). If done right, hardly anything can stop Persian rush. The counters you have against a good Persian rush usually takes too long to build and upgrade (remember, elephants need no upgrade).
Yes, any decent player can defeat mediocre Persia, and that actually support my point that Persia a difficult civ to master. But I tell ya, a supa Persian (which I'm not) can finish you off with 30-40 elephants in 4-5 minutes (even legions can't be pumped out that fast - since it requires an upgrade).
Centurion
Clubman
posted 01-24-02 11:37 AM ET (US)     9 / 22       
Are we talking AoE or RoR?
Noble
Clubman
posted 01-25-02 05:17 AM ET (US)     10 / 22       
If you talking about AOE I can't say much but in ROR persia is often considered as bad as a person who paints.
People complain all game and if they lose they blame it on the persians. Why? Much to easy to win with Persian.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 01-25-02 07:50 AM ET (US)     11 / 22       
Noble:
Really? Then why is wedsaz always boring us with strats for Persia when Persia is so good?
curious
Clubman
posted 01-25-02 09:53 AM ET (US)     12 / 22       
I was talking AOE (does anyone still play ROR?).
Speaking of ROR, why is Persia so bad in ROR games? I'm just curious (like my name) since I don't have ROR.
Noble
Clubman
posted 01-26-02 04:49 AM ET (US)     13 / 22       
Peter: I'm talking DM not RM here.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-27-02 06:11 AM ET (US)     14 / 22       

I'm amazed! Persia has plenty of support units, why don't people use them? In fact, persia has one of the widest arrays of iron units along with hittite.
 
Legions - Good army backbone after the AE wars are over, these guys don't cost much and train fast once researched. They're the 3rd best after cho and roman, no bonuses but all upgrades available. With legions there's no need to worry about priests, as I'm sure any cho player knows.
Cats - Good support for AEs, since the latter can act as a front line and withstand the stones longer than cents for example. Can also wipe out large groups of annoying priests and HHAs with these.
Priests - To convert enemy priests, AEs, cats, cents, and whatever else costs a lot. With martyrdom, you can break up packs of cats, even if they're on a towered hill, so your AEs can get up close and smelly.
EAs - They lack ballistics and a bit of range, but they do get the speed bonus, full armor, and alchemy. They can take out HHAs, cents, and fare better than AEs against old men with paint buckets.
HHAs - Again lacking ballistics and range, but otherwise perfectly good. Speed helps make up for the range deficiency, somewhat. Probably useful enough for the usual HHA roles, especially if combined with other units.
Cataphracts - Yammy without the cost bonus. I don't see why you'd use them when you have fast AEs, though.
Towers - Missing ballistics and two range, they can't really shoot back at ranged units. Still, they can stop units from just running through, and that's enough to stop scythes for example.
 
Their economy does have some problems compared to a civ with full econ upgrades.
1. Their farms last about 3/5ths as long. They need a lot of food, so this is bad. Use up all the berries and hunting if you can.
2. Their gold mining is 3/4ths as fast, and will lose 20% of the gold. At least you don't have to mine it.
3. Their stone mining is 3/4ths as fast, but you probably won't have much use for stone.
4. Their woodcutting is only about half. Luckily their army isn't wood-heavy, but the farms will suck up a lot of wood.
 
Surprisingly enough, the problem isn't one of market upgrades. Sum total, persian produces food 90% as fast as civs such as hittite or egypt, who have all the upgrades. So why is their economy so weak?
 
As it turns out, the farming rate is the main culprit, and it's the same across all civs (except palmy). Persia just happens to need a lot of food because people always focus on hordes of eles, ignoring all else.
 
AEs are 80% food.
EAs are 70% food.
Legions are 70% food, cents 60%.
HHAs are 36% food, scythes 40%, cataphracts 42%.
Cats and heles are, of course, 0% food.
 
I hope some of you find this interesting, maybe even useful.

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Noble
Clubman
posted 01-27-02 06:33 AM ET (US)     15 / 22       
Now thats a mouthfull of stats lol. In theory Persians rule but like always it comes down to the skill of the player and the skill of the enemy.
CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 01-27-02 10:49 AM ET (US)     16 / 22       
I can't believe you lot are saying Persia is for rooks and people who don't want a fair game. 1 year ago that civ was Hittite.

Persia is hard civ to master. You have to make sure the AE rush is devastating, otherwise a load of cats will send you back to your maker.

Then you have to remember that they lack the scythe and legions + HHAs only work in an early rush. If AEs fail and cats come in, your dead.


CenturionZ_1
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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-27-02 07:11 PM ET (US)     17 / 22       
CenturionZ_1:
Cat problems? You've got priests (w/full upgrades), cataphracts, fast AEs, legions. Surely you can come up with something.

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Noble
Clubman
posted 01-28-02 05:06 AM ET (US)     18 / 22       
1 simple elephant can do the job against cats. Thank god for friendly fire.
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 02-01-02 11:35 PM ET (US)     19 / 22       
Curious: Persians are much stronger in RoR because of the AE upgrade. This gives their elephants +3 attack and +2 armor (cents are now useless as elephant defense unlike AoE and legions get owned), and, equally as important, siegecraft (so that they take down towers faster than anybody else). In AoE, massed towers + some other unit owned elephants...but in RoR, elephants take out towers so fast, it's sick. Heles and priests take too long to build vs. Persia (same prob with those two units as in AoE...) You can also try the HHA thing, but you'd better have a large enough map...and usually your map won't be large enough. Or, you could just play Carthage, they have 750 hp elephants that can kill Persian eles 1v1 and heles in the midgame which makes it very ugly for Persia. (And Carth actually has a good econ.)

Wedsaz, he is talking about DM here, and the most important resource is the one you didn't mention: time. In terms of power vs. BT, nothing can match a mass of Persian AE early in the game. Support units are used by good Persians as the game progresses. The most important part early is to get a lot of elephants out, and fast. I sometimes get legions for the hell of it with Persia in the midgame because you can pump out a lot of them even with a crap econ, but they die to everything an AE dies to except priests, so they're no use in a rush. (With Persia, you MUST rush.) Cats without ballistics are useless after 5 min or so when hcats start showing up. They're decent support units for Persia if you're going against a hele civ, but that's about it. Priests are a good ele support unit, esp. when going up vs. another ele civ, and something that I think you neglected to mention. The cataphracts and HHA are useless because of the excessive cost for upgrades and lack or range for the HHA, so the fact that they get those units isn't too special.

The problem with Persia, as everyone has mentioned already, is that they're so one-dimensional. With such a crappy econ, they can't possibly hope to keep up in the midgame unless they seriously hurt the opponent in the rush phase. (BTW wedsaz, their econ sucks because you lose if you get into a woodchopping war - and wood is the basis of everything in this game - but more importantly, their non-wheeled villagers are absolute sitting ducks for scythe and archer raids.)

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 02-03-02 02:09 AM ET (US)     20 / 22       
RomanGladius:
You can afford about 4 legions for the price of 1 ele. A total of 80 dam and 640hp. Add the 3 shielding, and they make a better buffer vs archers. Priests are also less of a problem.
 
Cats with 14 range and large area damage help not only vs heles but also vs cents, archers, and priests. They can also be an alternative to AEs vs towers, if you're using other units at the time. (or if he has heles guarding the towers)
 
You thought wrong. I did mention priests, and they're one of persia's best assets within manageable numbers. I also mentioned martyrdom for causing havok amongst massed siege, since you can always martyr a cat before its stone falls. Once their numbers are down, bring in the AEs.
 
Cataphracts aren't very useful, I know, but they do work well vs siege - even dual siege (unless there's really a lot of them, then you should use martyrs). Persia's fast AEs usually do a better job, but cataphracts offer a different resource balance (more gold and less food), which can be useful in a crunch. The advantage of cataphracts over hcavs is an extra 35 hp, or 4 cat stones instead of 3, which lets them do the siege-killing job better. It's probably better to stay with hcavs though; unless you're making a *LOT* of cavs, I agree the cataphract upgrade is very steep for what it offers.
 
HAs having 20% less range isn't the end of the world, especially for a fast unit. As for whether the +50% hps the HHA upgrade provides is worth the cost, I think it depends on the situation. Sometimes it's enough to win the game, where more units couldn't have done it.
 
The problem with persia, is that people are too one-dimensional. With such crappy food-obsessed strats, they can't possibly hope to keep up in the midgame unless they seriously hurt the opponent in the rush phase. If they'd just use this untapped resource called a 'brain', they'd probably do just fine.
 
Persia doesn't have a wood problem because persia doesn't use much wood. Hittite, greek, any siege civ uses more wood. Any scythe civ uses more wood too.
 
Wheeled villagers? Sitting ducks? Geez man, make an army already! Once mounted units are in your town unopposed, villies are sitting ducks regardless of whether they're wheeled or not. The only thing the wheel is really good for, is to make chariots. Econ impact is negligible, as is the difference in villager survival rate.
 
As I said, food is the problem. Food is slow, takes up waaay too much villie time. The difference in market upgrades here is 10%. The fact is, that farming rates are just plain *****SLOW*****. Wouldn't you agree that no civ uses up nearly as much food as persia?

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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 02-03-02 11:47 AM ET (US)     21 / 22       
wedsaz: Cats without ballistics? How can they be of much good?

Oh, and priests vs cats? Done before, gold cost so much. 1 priest for let's say 5 cats. Fine that's good in first glances but then they still cause your AEs havoc all day. And what are you going to do when they start using scythes when they see your priests?

I'm saying that using Persian AEs when cats start coming out everywhere is pretty hopeless. If you plan for a full on struggle, build some legions with the AEs.


CenturionZ_1
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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 02-04-02 08:49 PM ET (US)     22 / 22       
CenturionZ_1:
All ballistics does, is help you hit targets that move at a certain speed. If the target moves too fast (cavalry, scythes, and IIRC persian AEs?), even ballistics won't help you.
 
Funny thing is, against slow units like siege, eles and priests... the large area damage is enough to hit them without ballistics.
 
Buildings and towers don't move, so ballistics is irrelevant there.
 
That leaves infantry, eg legions and cents. That's the only units you'd need ballistics against.
 
Martyrs vs cats... interestingly enough persian AEs work great against scattered cats, and a few martyrs taking out 4-5 cats in the middle of the front line will cause exactly that kind of setup.
 
Scythes are irrelevant; by the time they get to the priests, they already martyred and took his cats, and you're left with AEs vs scythes+scattered cats. AEs are good vs both of these.
 
AEs have higher hps and speed than legions, and have area damage. Greater numbers won't help, in fact they'll slow you down more and you'll take more stones. Legions can help you keep the pressure up between AE waves, and can supply the raw mass when fighting priests and archers (saving you time-intensive food), but against siege and towers AEs are better. So use both, but not at the same time.

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