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Topic Subject:wedsaz
JK_daddy
Clubman
posted 12-18-01 06:31 AM ET (US)         
lol this is my feeble attempt to get some strat discussion going.I guess practically everything has been covered at one time or another.Hmm i have read many things and this is my conclusion to the current state of aoe.Whether things have changed from yesteryear im not sure...Firstly assyria wars still dominate the landscape.Ive started playing in gp/expert rooms in the last month or so(no rev inland 3v3)every single game everyone has chosen assyria(myself included).I know of only 1 expert who plays yamato and it saddens me there isnt the variety of civs used nowadays.I guess the current logic is that in order to be competitive u HAVE to play assyria.Frankly i would like to try yam,shang,hell even persia but for ease of playing assyria is no 1.Btw i have played persia on rev yep they are a great civ if..the map is kind to u.ive pulled off some of my fastest tool times with them and club/scout rushed but in a 3v3 im not sure if they could hang.Usually if u try to fast bronze 11/12 mins by the time u get cav opponent is all walled.If u try to paint inside opponents base the lack of persian speed catches u out.Dont get me wrong i like persia but hmmm i wish i had the neccessary skills to utilise them effectively.
AuthorReplies:
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-19-01 02:55 AM ET (US)     1 / 27       

Quote:


Firstly assyria wars still dominate the landscape.

Assyrian problems? I've got an old strat exactly for that, which I can dust off for you. It takes some practice and a complete departure from conventional wisdom, but it's very difficult for assy to stop it. Assy's nemesis, I guess.

Quote:


Btw i have played persia on rev yep they are a great civ if..the map is kind to u.

Yes, persia does better in RoR. More fish, more bambis,
slingers, camels...

Quote:


Usually if u try to fast bronze 11/12 mins by the time u get cav opponent is all walled.

(mumble)Nobody walls in RoR anymore, maybe it's the slingers. I miss AoE.(/mumble)

You could make a scout earlier to check it out first, if there's a wall then skip the cavs and move the the next step.

The next step is, get STs and massed compies out. The STs take out walls, and the compies take out anything else.

Quote:


If u try to paint inside opponents base the lack of persian speed catches u out.

Agreed. Persia has an advantage there though, against most if not all civs.... they can afford to let the fight go to iron.

Ok, I'll list some good AoE civ choices now.

I won't take about assy or yammy, except to mention that their fastbronze is 14:00 unless they're lucky enough to have lots of shorefish.

However, some better civ choices would be...

shang - 12:00 fastbronze, choice of cavs, CAs and compies.

egypt - 16:00 fastbronze, 1/3 chariot 2/3 CA combo can take out anything in bronze except compies.

hittite - 16:00 fastbronze, CAs w/upgrades can take out assy, STs can flatten compies. Good iron, if it comes to that.

phoenie - used to be good, but I hear they've been "fixed" ... in a biological way.

persia - 10:30 fastbronze, good for cav rush, and like yammy they can fall back on compies. Good iron, if it comes to that.

minos - 12:00 fastboom, great compies.


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peter
HG Alumnus
posted 12-19-01 07:23 AM ET (US)     2 / 27       
On islands yams should have good chances against Assy - strong navy, cheap cavs can do some real harm.
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 12-19-01 01:27 PM ET (US)     3 / 27       
On water maps Yam are arguably the best. I like using Mace or Rome against Assy on land maps in ROR, above any other civ. In AOE I'd use Yam or Shang.

Greece work well on islands but I suffer a bit with no archers.


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[This message has been edited by Phill Phree (edited 12-19-2001 @ 01:30 PM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-20-01 00:05 AM ET (US)     4 / 27       
peter:

Quote:


On islands yams should have good chances against Assy - strong navy, cheap cavs can do some real harm.

On islands people don't play assy very much. You'd see mostly minos, hittite, egyptian, yammy.

In short, what does that have to do with it?

Phill Phree:

Quote:


On water maps Yam are arguably the best. I like using Mace or Rome against Assy on land maps in ROR, above any other civ. In AOE I'd use Yam or Shang.

Yam and shang have bee tried again and again against assy, yet their CAs still dominate AoE. Figure it out already.

Quote:


Greece work well on islands but I suffer a bit with no archers.

Not to mention no econ bonuses, or even so much as spear chariots. You're completely dependant on cavalry, as they're your main bronze unit. If you get rushed early, or your gold supply gets cut off, or your opponent is yammy, or he walls and masses CAs, you're scrooged.

Why do I get a feeling you haven't played much multiplayer?


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JK_daddy
Clubman
posted 12-20-01 04:15 AM ET (US)     5 / 27       
Hmm im looking 4 a counter to assyria on inland.now minoa interest me because basically there comps stomp anything in bronze if u get a few together.plz can u dust off that strat of urs wedsaz il be interested to give it a try 4 sure.Even on inland maps most assyrian guys in 1v1 double dock (i do too)so if the strat involves that hell itll be worth a go.most experts are locked in the mindset of playing assyria so i think anything thats out of the ordinary and can be performed easily will crunch em.thx 4 ur feedback guys.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 12-20-01 05:11 AM ET (US)     6 / 27       
wedsaz:
You're asking for it, aren't you? How long haven't you played at all? Over two years? It urprises me that you're still advertising strats that you have admitted yourself don't work - you couldn't repeat the minoan fastboom yourself on a medit map. That's pathetic.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-20-01 01:56 PM ET (US)     7 / 27       
peter:

Just read what RageOMatic has to say here.

http://aoe.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aoecgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,3732,1,all

For some reason I've been unable to reproduce it in RoR since the latest patch. Maybe they changed the wood rates or something, I don't know.

Also almost everyone takes a naval civ in RoR, and makes tons of scout ships. This is not at all the situation the minoan fastboom was designed for.

The situation it was designed for was to counter the assy CA rush in AoE. I didn't want to fight players who had been playing assy for months, on their own terms. I wanted to beat them using something they didn't know, so that they'd be the ones needing to catch up. This seems to be exactly what JK_daddy is looking for.


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-20-01 02:35 PM ET (US)     8 / 27       
JK_daddy:

The key with minoan, what I absolutely had to solve, was getting to bronze in time to make compies as early as assy could make CAs.

The fastboom was the solution I found.

Goals in Stone Age
1. build a house. Just one, not two.
2. Build a wood pit near a forest.
3. Build 2 docks, preferably blocking the only pass into your lands to help deter tool rushes, don't worry abouto checking for fish. Just get the FBs out.
4. Train 12 villies, 11 of them on wood and one building houses a bit in advance of your needs.
5. Train lots and lots of FBs, should come to about 18 of them before tool. Keep them uncluttered, 3-4 per sea fish spot or 2 per shorefish spot is usually about good.

Goals while tooling
1. Build a granary and a barracks, but don't use them.
2. Continue training FBs, about 8 of them I think.
3. Build a 2nd wood pit, and split your woodies evenly between both of them.
4. Add a 3rd dock if the fish are/become rare around your 1st dock, or if your FBs are too cluttered.

Goals in Tool Age
1. Make 3 more villies, and put them on gold.
1. Build a market and an archery, 2-3 villies each, simultaneously if possible.
2. Research woodworking.
3. Continue training FBs.

Goals in Bronze Age
1. Research improved bow, composite bow. This is the top priority, even if your FBs are being shot up and you have to run your villies away from an invading army, research this at all costs.
2. Build at least 5 more archeries, and start pumping impies from them as soon as possible. Build more archeries as wood becomes available, get up to maybe 3 packs of 6 archeries. I like to clump them into 6-packs, 2-3 tiles between clumps, so the compies can group but don't get too cluttered to walk around.
3. Research artisanship, to give range to your archers and cut more of that precious material, wood.
4. Add 2-6 stables near your archeries, so you can make a pack of cavs if STs show up, since they're the only thing that can give compies much grief in bronze.
5. Build a Government Center, research architecture, build more TCs, train more villies and spread them to various resources. Might be a good time to put some of your new villies on those berries now.
6. If at 50 max pop, delete FBs as the fish get depleted so you can replace them with more villies. If above 50 pop, try not to forget to keep training more of both.

Ok, you'll want to start with the 3-minute drill. Build a house, a wood pit, a dock, a house, and another dock by 3:00. Keep practicing this until you get it down to no later than 3:30.

Then, the 7-minute drill. Click on tool upgrade at 7 mins, with all the stone age goals done.

Then, the 9-minute drill. Add the stuff you have to do while tooling. When you reach tool, evaluate and start over, till you get it right.

Then practice up to bronze age, again evaluating and restarting till you get it just right.

Finally, practice up to a horde of 40 compies or so.

Remember, nothing you do afterwards can fix a slowdown before tool, so practice that part till you're mumbling about docks and fishing boats and 12 villies in your sleep. Name your stone age villies after the zodiac symbols and the minutes to tool after the 7 days of the week if you have to if you have to. This is the part you have to set in stone, so you don't hesitate for one moment.


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Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 12-21-01 01:11 AM ET (US)     9 / 27       
Wedsaz - You're right I haven't played much multiplayer AOE, but there's more to any game than just CAs. It's also down to the player - no point someone having Assy if they are not as good as their opponent, they will lose.

As for Rage's comments, so what? One person got on with your strat, everyone else thinks it's bollocks.


My Karma ran over my Dogma

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JK_daddy
Clubman
posted 12-21-01 05:01 AM ET (US)     10 / 27       
I had a lil play around with your strat in single player.settings were coastal large reveal.results were 13 20 bronze 32 vills 19 fbs 13 reals.its a nice strat on water.im a lil worried if i went no rev inland the time it would take finding a decent place to dock would set me back.plus if i dock block shallows i kinda think there wont b enuff decent fishing there to support my mainly fb population.if u got time wedsaz coulds u come on the zone and show me how its done.ill keep it 4 coastal rev 4 sure..
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-21-01 01:13 PM ET (US)     11 / 27       
Phill Phree:

Quote:


It's also down to the player - no point someone having Assy if they are not as good as their opponent, they will lose.

Right, but having the right tool for the job can go a long way, too. Who cares that your opponent is armed with Excalibur and is the best swordsman who ever lived, when you've got an m16.

Quote:


As for Rage's comments, so what? One person got on with your strat, everyone else thinks it's bollocks.

The key thing is, it worked. Sure the other ones may thing it's a bluff, but if one does it... then doesn't that mean it can be done?

Or is Rage simply a better player than blitz and co, and then why are you listening to them if you only listen to good player(s)?


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-21-01 01:35 PM ET (US)     12 / 27       

Quote:


Settings were coastal large reveal. Results were 13 20 bronze 32 vills 19 fbs 13 reals.

With a good map and some practice, the results can go to 12:00 bronze, about 42 vills 28fb 14 reals.

Also, there's possible variants like delaying bronze a bit to raise your reals to 16-18 for more wood/gold, or moving more reals from wood to gold for a cav rush, and so on. You could even do a scout rush, think of all that food you've got!

Quote:


its a nice strat on water.

Not so good on islands though, people tend to take naval civs and fight over the sea a lot there. Most AoE players think of coastal as being a land map though, so they play assy as they would on inland, hehehe.

Quote:


im a lil worried if i went no rev inland the time it would take finding a decent place to dock would set me back.

Water is in one of two places on inland. It's either a river in the middle, in which case you should dock-block a pass or two, or it's on the edge.

Usually I'd prefer coastal though, in AoE RM it's the best.

Quote:


plus if i dock block shallows i kinda think there wont b enuff decent fishing there to support my mainly fb population.

FBs move quickly and carry lots, compared to the time they spend fishing. Distance isn't as much of a problem, so don't worry about having fish right nearby.

Also, the key is to get your first two docks up and pumping out FBs. If there isn't much fish there, use your FBs to scout for a better dock spot. Ever notice how they're not only fast, but have a good LoS too? Then once you have a good spot identified, have your builder go there and build a dock, so you can move your fleet of FBs to fish in that area. Again, their speed makes that move less of a delay. Don't forget to build enough houses, I find that's the single biggest source of delays with this strat.

Quote:


if u got time wedsaz coulds u come on the zone and show me how its done.ill keep it 4 coastal rev 4 sure..

Firewall, can't connect to the zone. I'm getting DSL though, maybe connecting a computer outside the firewall won't be as much of a hassle. Hmm, maybe I can even play on the zone regularly again. Don't get your hopes up though.

Oh btw, it doesn't have to be reveal. You just have to factor in the exploring your builder will have to do, and send an earlier villie. Practice will tell you which one, the idea is he should find water just as you have enough wood for your first dock.


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Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 12-21-01 01:39 PM ET (US)     13 / 27       
Well for starters I never only listen to anyone or anything - that's your assumption, not mine, I listen to everyone. I know damn well I'm not a great MP but I have no delusions about my advice ;-)

As for any of the players you consistently try to insult, any player who is good doesn't become suddenly worthless, as you suggest, just because there is a better player out there - there is always a better player out there - it just isn't you ;-)


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-21-01 10:54 PM ET (US)     14 / 27       
Blitz cleans out the cob-webs from past forums debates, thinks about the legendary Minoan Fastboom, scratches himself for a few seconds while opening another beer, then drifts back to an ever-peaceful rest in RoR Heaven where simple truths are revealed --- there is no Santa Claus and there is no good wedsaz Minoan Fastboom strat.
Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 03:38 AM ET (US)     15 / 27       
Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. At least until Microsoft squeezes the toy market and puts the jolly fat boy under. As for all those elves though...well...their height gives them an edge in the porn market. Prolly nuff said bout that...lol.

Yes, I am still as rude, crude, and socially unacceptable as always. Merry Christmas all. Been awhile. Hope this post finds all of the old timers in good spirits. Too busy doing crap to find time for the riveting discussion here.

Btw, Blitz, I don't know if the Beer is a good idea. You are already fat enough. At least drink the "light." I would hate for you to have to start shopping at the store the "Tele Tubbies" get their threads...lol.

Moving to Montana in a couple of days. Once settled in I will try and get back to the forums for some fun. I have missed you ppl...Leper fights back the tears.

wedsaz: If there is a Santa, and you were real good this year, maybe he will bring you an alternative strat to the mystical "Mino Fast Boom." Just clowning you man.

As for the topic...Assy rox in AoE. Beatable...yes...however not easily. But I prolly couldn't Tool under 10 mins if my life depended on it...being as rusty as I'm sure I am.

Merry Berries to all and to all a good spot!!!


Knowledge is not power until it is formulated into an organized plan of action.
JK_daddy
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 05:38 AM ET (US)     16 / 27       
hehe obviouly theres some history between u guys i wont ask...lol.btw i find wedsaz to be pretty informative.he brings to light things that i havent thought of.but plz i pretty sure all u guys have something to offer on how to beat assy plz do share with me.any other civ strats would be much appreciated cheers
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 12-22-01 06:21 AM ET (US)     17 / 27       
One way to do it is agree not to play Assy for a change. I take it that you aren't eating fastfood all the time just because it's an easy way to get some food in? If playing AOE were your job it would make sense to do it in the most efficient way but heck, it's a game.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 10:36 PM ET (US)     18 / 27       
Phill Phree:

Quote:


Well for starters I never only listen to anyone or anything - that's your assumption, not mine, I listen to everyone. I know damn well I'm not a great MP but I have no delusions about my advice ;-)

I never said you did. Listening to all suggestions and seeing what works for you is probably the best thing to do, I would think.

Quote:


As for any of the players you consistently try to insult, any player who is good doesn't become suddenly worthless, as you suggest, just because there is a better player out there - there is always a better player out there - it just isn't you ;-)

Who, me? I'm not the one throwing insults at someone just because he offers a strat I can't do, or don't find useful for stopping the strats I have problems against.

As for the good/not good thing, I was poking fun at the way some seem to think a good player can do anything and will still beat a less experienced player, regardless of strat. Personally I think that's a misconception, how about you?

Either way, if RageOMatic did well with it, then it obviously isn't worthless now is it?


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 10:40 PM ET (US)     19 / 27       
BlitzkreigComin:

Quote:


there is no Santa Claus and there is no good wedsaz Minoan Fastboom strat.

Glad to see you're still scared it might come back and turn out to be true.


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 10:42 PM ET (US)     20 / 27       

Oh, I'd like to mention something else.

Insteresting how those who criticize solutions the most, are often among those who don't have anything constructive to offer.


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Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 11:03 PM ET (US)     21 / 27       
"As for the good/not good thing, I was poking fun at the way some seem to think a good player can do anything and will still beat a less experienced player, regardless of strat. Personally I think that's a misconception, how about you?"

Of course it's a misconception, because it never actually happens. Good players don't just 'do anything' - that's why they are good. They are flexible enough to adapt their strat on the fly, which is where experience counts. And is also why the phrase 'regardless of strat' has little meaning either - if you know or see what the opponent is doing you won't stick to just one strat just to see it through at the expense of suicide. Plus it's all very well to talk about any particular strat being virtually invincible but if you're not quick enough and organised enough to get it on it's as much use as a chocolate kettle. Which is where experience counts again.

Bottom line - if you want to get better, you don't talk about it, you play.


My Karma ran over my Dogma

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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 11:29 PM ET (US)     22 / 27       
JK_daddy:

Quote:


hehe obviouly theres some history between u guys i wont ask...lol.

Most RTS players seem to follow basic rules that they consider to be true, like "The best defense is a good offense" and "If you can't beat them, join them" (or copy their strat, in this case).

I follow these three rules.
1. "Rules are for fools, and for the wise to make and break." - Winston Churchill
2. "measurements are from the land, quantities are from measurements, figures from quantities, comparisons from figures, and victory from comparisons" - Sun Tzu, "the Art of War"
3. "Never never never never never give up." - Winston Churchill

Quote:


btw i find wedsaz to be pretty informative.he brings to light things that i havent thought of.

That's what I try to do, make people think.

I don't want you to copy my strats exactly. I want you to come back and share strats none of us knew of, or better yet some we hadn't imagined possible.

Quote:


but plz i pretty sure all u guys have something to offer on how to beat assy plz do share with me.

Yes! I want to hear too!

Quote:


any other civ strats would be much appreciated cheers

Persian, shang, minoan and yammy are fast enough to reach bronze in time to reach bronze in time to fight assy's CAs with compies. I'm sure there's a wealth of strats for shand and yammy, they were very popular in the old days.

A standard boat boom (5 villies on berries first, then add a wood pit and a dock or two) should give mino and yammy bronze times comparable to assy CA rushers. Unfortunately, that means they'll have CAs 30 seconds before your impies can turn into compies, but with walls and cavs you might be able to hold them off long enough. Not sure.

Shang can bronze in 12 mins with either a fastbronze or a boat boom strat, fast enough to get compies before assy does. You can also send some cavs or CAs to mess them up, if they didn't wall in.

I've seen persian bronze as early as 10:30, but their speed relies completely on hunting. If you don't hunt, you'd be better off with a slow civ like egypt or hittite.

I don't know tool rushes well, but since AoE has no slingers assy can stop any tool rush with walls, so I would say you can't really rely on them. Cav rushes would be stopped by walls as well, unless you bring slow and late stone throwers to take them down, by which time they'd have massed enough CAs to kill your cavs... and your poor helpless villagers.

So I would say that aside from opportunities to cause early damage using your opponent's mistakes, compies are it against assy rushers. Also the best civ would be either shang, or an unconventional strat.


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-22-01 11:44 PM ET (US)     23 / 27       
Phill Phree:

Quote:


Of course it's a misconception, because it never actually happens. Good players don't just 'do anything' - that's why they are good. They are flexible enough to adapt their strat on the fly, which is where experience counts. And is also why the phrase 'regardless of strat' has little meaning either - if you know or see what the opponent is doing you won't stick to just one strat just to see it through at the expense of suicide.

You'd be surprised.

Practicing a strat until it becomes a ritual or even a reflex, means you can do it faster. That can be the difference between victory and defeat. However, it also means spending less time considering possibilities, instead focusing on the next step of the strat. Funny thing is, when everyone does the same strat, be it the assy CA rush or the RoR overboom, that generally isn't a problem because you can assume that your opponent will do the exact same thing as you. Therefore whoever does it faster will win, and the one who does it without wasting any time thinking will be faster.

As for suicide, they usually don't know it until it's too late, because they don't start thinking until something goes wrong.


Quote:


Plus it's all very well to talk about any particular strat being virtually invincible but if you're not quick enough and organised enough to get it on it's as much use as a chocolate kettle. Which is where experience counts again.

See above concerning being quick and organised.

Quote:


Bottom line - if you want to get better, you don't talk about it, you play.

That's exactly what the least flexible ones keep saying, in fact "just play" is a more common variation, probably because it's shorter. Does wonders for teamwork, not.


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ManBehindTheCurtain
Clubman
posted 12-31-01 10:50 AM ET (US)     24 / 27       
First off, I wish to give Wedsaz a much belated thank you for his yeoman services to the game and to this forum. Without Wedsaz sticking his nose in here and throwing down opinions about just about everything, this forum would be much less rich. Without his stirring of the pot the game would probably have even fewer players than it now has.

For example, I suspect that without Wedsaz I would not still be able to duck in here once every couple of months or so and still see familiar names. Hello to everyone on this thread.

Having said thanks, I now feel free to say hogwash.

Bring it out onto the Zone my good man. Let's see it in action.


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-31-01 06:37 PM ET (US)     25 / 27       
ManBehindTheCurtain:

Quote:


Bring it out onto the Zone my good man. Let's see it in action.

Remember last time I said I would be there? I was there.

I don't know when, but I'll show you how it works.


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JK_daddy
Clubman
posted 01-01-02 08:21 AM ET (US)     26 / 27       
yeah baby im keen to play my zone name is _chessdaddy_feel free to zm me if u see me.
Dave
Clubman
posted 01-14-02 00:37 AM ET (US)     27 / 27       
Well, well, well ...

Hiya everybody!

Been a while so I thought I'd drop by and see how y'all doin' in AoE Heaven ...

I see the same old strat arguments rage on ...

I figure that since the last time I was here and read one of wedsaz' ancient strats I must have played a couple hundred RoR games on the zone. I would have played more but I have been pretty busy lately and don't have much free time ...

We should try to get some Heaven people back on the zone and have those RoR parties like we used to ...


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