You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.21 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Dock first revisited
Bottom
Topic Subject:Dock first revisited
Jehu
Inactive
posted 12-25-98 12:01 PM ET (US)         

I've been playing around with the dock first strat lately on contenintal maps with pretty good success. I've been using Hittite instead of the more obvious Phoenicia and my bronze times are as good or better than a more traditional pit or granary first strat only my food supply is much better once I reach bronze.

Mediteranean will work also, but there are certain advantages to Continental. First the water is always close to your TC. I will have a dock built at a spot with at least 4 fish before my sixth villager pops out. Because I am able to build my dock so soon, and because there is almost always a forest near my TC, I have all 7 on wood very soon and I get a steady flow of boats while I wait to get ahead on my wood for a pit by a sweat spot.

After I pit wood (my second building) I build a granary and start putting my new villagers and a few woodies on berries. I haven't mentioned scouting because that is business as usual, but since I am relying so heavily on boat fishing for my early food I have berry patches and plenty of hunting available for use later.

I see couple of advantages to docking first. I have more food once I reach bronze for a major bronze attack or iron jumping. And I will have done a great deal of fishing before I have to worry about scout ship attacks. By the time the enemy sends scoutships or war galleys I will have just about exhausted the close fish so even if I loose the seas It wont hurt nearly as bad.

I haven't tried docking first with Phoeny but their bronze times and food levels should be very impressive with this strat because it plays to their strength.

If you haven't tried you should, especially on continental maps.


[This message has been edited by Jehu (edited 12-25-98).]

AuthorReplies:
Ender
Guest
posted 12-25-98 01:25 PM ET (US)     1 / 21       
Just an idea for you. When you do hit bronze que up about 10 villagers asap, in the long run fishing ships are way less effecient food gatherers than villagers, and while you are fighting they tend to go idle even more. So unlike a normal strat where you build villagers and boats once you do bronze, I'd go all out on the villagers since you already went all out on boats.


Potejon
Clubman
posted 12-25-98 05:40 PM ET (US)     2 / 21       
Well I have tried it with Phoen on Cont, worked great, I could have gotten a great bronze time if it had not been for me pumping out ships very fast, to fast in fact, no wood for the bronze buildings, but one thing that is great is that you have lots of food in bronze.
But you need a forest close, but it is fun, u loose some on tool times, at least I do, but bronzes works good/better.


POTE!!!!!!!!!
"Delirant, isti Romani!"
(These Romans are crazy!!)
Asterix_FC

lucifer
Inactive
posted 12-25-98 08:06 PM ET (US)     3 / 21       
Potejon..I'm not an expert but I think you should write:

"DeliranTES, isti romani" or better "Insani, isti romani"

Lucius Cifero


Potejon
Clubman
posted 12-25-98 08:33 PM ET (US)     4 / 21       
really?+
I would not know since I got it from another forumer, only saw it in Norwegfain and english u se. Delirantes, also??
hold on, thanks!


POTE!!!!!!!!!
"Delirant, isti Romani!"
(These Romans are crazy!!)
Asterix_FC

Jehu
Inactive
posted 12-25-98 08:48 PM ET (US)     5 / 21       
Ender

Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't done that exactly although I always start pumping more villagers out after bronzing. I'll give it a try.

You are right about idle boats. I'll see my food level getting low and look over to find several fishing boats sitting idle. Grrrrr!
What goes along with this is the need to eventually delete fishing boats later in the game when the ocean has been stripped clean.
I noticed after doing so that my "losses" total on my military score went up by the number of deleted boats. ???? Not that it matters.

Jehu


Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 12-26-98 07:42 AM ET (US)     6 / 21       
hello Jehu, I've been practicing with a guy that uses just Phoeny, regular AoE. He does wood (yes wood) pit first. Sends 2 villys to build docks and does some houses. A different strategy but I have the screen shots of his 20 min. strong irons. He has 70 villys (half are boats) by the 20 min mark his 3 or 4 transports have infested the map and he builds by the enemy. LOL, he may get RoR, I told him about it. Also told him you're a boomer and he said "whats that?" He said he hates to do berries/hunting. The 20 min iron is what he expects in most games. Amazing!!


Tenaciti

Sting
Clubman
posted 12-26-98 08:56 AM ET (US)     7 / 21       
Tenaciti: That must really put a dent in his villager production to pit by wood only, no?

Is this on medium resources or something? And if this is in AoE what map is he using...I would never go for a dock first on anything but continental or medit or narrows...cause I can trust that these maps have enough water on them


Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 12-26-98 10:03 AM ET (US)     8 / 21       
Hi Sting, That was the first thing I asked him about the strategy. His delay is only about 20 seconds. He sends 2 villys to water, builds docks. 2 close together and one further. The other villys do houses,pit and chop. He does many boats in stone. This is on default, AoE, water type maps. If the 2 dock builders die (happened to me both times I tried in a real game)Then there's a setback. Hehe makes me nervous to see him skip berries and elephants.


Tenaciti

Angel Mack
Clubman
posted 12-27-98 02:16 AM ET (US)     9 / 21       
The sad thing is, with the dock first strat...Shang virutally has no villager delay. They are really the strongest Baby Boomer out there. It only takes 1 1/2 boat deposits to make up for a shang villager. It is not very hard at all to get a 20 min iron. The civs that I tried and have done it successfully with is: Phoenician (19 mins flat), Palmryan (late 19 mins), Shang (early 18 mins), and Minoan (19 mins). There are really about the only civs I have tried the strat with, just too bad Greek doesn't get fast boats
BTW: With Shang, at the 20 min mark I had a dozen or more fully upgraded ha's attacking the enemy, was walled off, and was considering getting Heavy Horse Archers or not by the 22 min mark, I had them! Just remember to get some control of the seas as EARLY as possible, really possible with phoenician or Minoan. Easy to get the Sea later with Palmryan with the wood upgrades, just remember to keep building more SP's by the wood, it goes really fast with them


Angel Mack

Ender
Guest
posted 12-27-98 11:45 AM ET (US)     10 / 21       
Shang build order on continental map if you want to boom. Pit by forest, preferably by 1 shore fish. 1 villager on shore fish rest on forest, build dock asap, build boat, build another dock, keep boats pumping from 2 docks plus build villagers, all villagers go on forest. Build granery by berries at some point and wall in when posible. Hit tool upgrade at around 9-10 minutes.

On way to tool build 2 or 3 more docks, keep pumping out boats but keep enough wood for 2 buildings, once tool build stable+marketplace, get scout and pump out some ships, go bronze, get woodcutting upgrade, gold digging upgrade. Put pit by gold and put 5-6 guys on gold, put pit by stone put 2 guys on stone. should be able to hit bronze at around 14-15 minutes with 20 villagers+25 boats easily.

Once bronze put down gov center, que up 10 villagers and drop down 4 archery ranges, get wheel, pump out some chariot archers if you feel you'll be attacked by land. Upgrade to war galleys, keep putting guys on wood, when you have 200 extra drop another TC by forest to double villager production. Once you hit 800 gold go iron, should be able to iron by around 20-22 minutes.

While going iron supplement fishing ship food with natural food that most would of used to get to bronze, keep building villagers. Try to hold the sea but if you lose it at this point you should have so many real villagers it doesn't matter. Should be able to hit iron with around 70 villagers.

On the way to iron get nobility, once iron upgrade to scythe chariots, plop down 8 stables and run over enemy. Should be able to have at least 24 scythe chariots, 100 villagers, and 1 super upgrade of your choice by around 25-30 minutes. Walk over silly opponents who are still in bronze age.


[This message has been edited by Ender (edited 12-28-98).]

Stooge_Jay
Inactive
posted 12-27-98 02:04 PM ET (US)     11 / 21       
That sounds fine Ender but what pop limit are you using... seems to me to do that you need at least 150. If you have 25 boats and 70 villagers you need a big pop to have any army. Hope you don't get tool rushed also. They hit your woodies and you got problems.


Ender
Guest
posted 12-28-98 06:46 AM ET (US)     12 / 21       
This works well with 125 pop, I messed up the post though, I try to hit the tool button between 9 and 10 minutes, I find that most tool rushes fail if you can tool by 11-12 minutes with a good boom, If I notice someone tool early I put down 3 barracks and as soon as I hit tool I can pump out the slingers, since most tool rushes don't hit until about the time I tool the damage they do is minimal. Also since I have so much food coming in I can even pump out some clubmen in stone and upgrade them in early tool. I wouldn't use this as a standard strat but if you are the middle civ in a 3v3 it works great.


Stooge_Neuf
Inactive
posted 12-28-98 02:15 PM ET (US)     13 / 21       
I also love the dock first strategy but usually use Minnows. Can bronze in the 12s but usually always less than 15 and a 20 min Iron is easy. When I'm in middle I always try to take the sea to keep fishing rolling in. But if I'm on the sides I won't boom so much with the boats and go for more "real" vills.

Dock first helps counter the tool rush because you will always be spread out and are unlikely to get hit on land and on sea at the same time.


nokiaphone
Inactive
posted 12-28-98 02:16 PM ET (US)     14 / 21       
I've tried Dock First before, but how do you do it well? I can't figure it out. What's the build order?

Thanks!


Boneser again
Clubman
posted 12-28-98 02:58 PM ET (US)     15 / 21       
I think I know why tool rushers fail against you Ender. With 70 plus villagers running around it would take at least half an hour to hunt them all down which gives you lots of time to iron. Seriously though I have to agree with Stooge Jay. I wish more people would take the time when decribing their strategies to perhaps make more of a point of listing the pop, game settings, map type and civ. for instance. (ok Shang/ continental)map size I assume huge/gigantic) default resources) These things to me have an important bearing on the success of any strategy used. It seems you are describing a simple villager boom which I would say is pretty common strat with shang. But 100 vills + 25 boats. Pop 125. Arent you forgetting something. What do you do with your 100 vills when your opponent attacks? Do you just allow them to be killed and then build military units? Unless you have 10 or so of each military building to quickly raise an army arent you vulnerable? No offense but these are just questions I have after reading your post. Sorry if I sound painfully ignorant.


[This message has been edited by Boneser again (edited 12-28-98).]

Ender
Guest
posted 12-29-98 07:47 AM ET (US)     16 / 21       
I'm one of those crazy people that uses walls and towers I also locust a lot so anyone killing my villagers won't kill a lot at once, I usually have 7-8 TC by iron age using this strat so rebuilding is easy especially with 35 food villagers.

In a perfect game I kill the person next to me, in tool I wall off from him in case he kills my forward base. After killing him I wall off that section and start building villagers in his section, this way I can never be fully killed by 1 attack. I rarely build more than 25-35 units at a time all game, I just always keep 25-35... pop limit is always a problem but with more than 125 I lag too bad.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 11:20 AM ET (US)     17 / 21       
While I don't think docking as the first building is optimal under most circumstances, docking early is extremely strong. Many times if you pitted first by wood and even 1 SF (esp. as Shang or Phoe) you can dock as your second building. I never build a 2nd dock until I have sufficient wood intake(as well as manditory food intake to create peons w/no delay) to support that 2nd dock's boat production.
Here is an example of what Shang can do by docking early. On A large med map I bronzed at 11:55 w/24 peons and 12 boats. Note that it is virtually impossible to bronze 24 peons any earlier than 11:35 do to build times ! This means I got 12 boats built and only lost 20 sec from perfect ! Off course, I had a superb staring spot and pitted 2 SF by gazelles and big forest. It seems on good maps quite easy to create 10-12 fishing boats and only lose about 30-60 sec of one's bronze time. - neilkaz -


Jehu
Inactive
posted 12-29-98 05:24 PM ET (US)     18 / 21       
Nokiaphone

I dock first almost every time on coninental maps. The build order is pretty simple really. Your first building is a dock and your second is a wood pit. After that the build order depends on the circumstances. You may want a second dock, or granary, as your third building. the trick is in getting a steady flow of boats and eventaully villagers as you spend wood for additional buildings. I didn't mention houses and barracks since those are necessities regardless of pit first, granary first, or dock first.

If you dont find a forest relatively close to your TC you should forget about docking first. But on Continental maps I have almost always had a forest nearby.

I tried docking first on a coastal map the other day but it didn't work nearly as well. In fact, because of my starting position it didn't work at all. I had enough fish but because the water was narrow and very near the border, I effectively dock-blocked my fishing boats from half the fish. And as you may have guessed the dock only spit out boats on one side. I eventaully had to build a second dock in an indention and delete the first one after exhausting the fish on that side. A stupid mistake on my part and it slowed me down enough to really cost us against some good opponents.

Jehu


Ender
Guest
posted 12-30-98 06:53 AM ET (US)     19 / 21       
If you don't get a forest by your TC try to go storage pit and then dock next time. It doesn't take very long at all to get the dock up and the optimized wood cutting will get your second dock up faster. I've been able to do 14 minute 48 villger/boat booms with phoenician going sp/dock first... Of course I can do those on occassion with granery first but I just started the sp/dock first strat.


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 12-30-98 10:08 AM ET (US)     20 / 21       
Really ender...that sounds pretty scary to me How long does it take you to get food for the 8th viller? Are you completely ignoring land food? What map type are you trying this on? Mediterranean seems a little harder to me then continental since you have to walk so far to the water on med.


Ender
Guest
posted 12-30-98 10:47 AM ET (US)     21 / 21       
last night I did it on continental with phoenician, not sure how much I delayed on villagers but I only used 1 berrie patch (built at about the 6-7 minute mark) and I only used 2 guys on the patch, I mainly built it so I could upgrade to small walls. My times were 11:00 tool with 38 villagers/boats, 14:30 bronze with 42 villagers/boats. I could of bronzed 30 seconds faster but I lost a forward builder building an archer range and had to wait on food... I also built 2 barracks in stone and pumped out 4 slingers as soon as I hit tool because I thought I was going to be rushed. By bronze age I had 4 archer ranges, the wood and gold upgrades, 6 scout ships and 5 docks. Also 3 different storage pit wood gathering areas since all my villagers were on wood.


You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames