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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » 6 popular Medit map starts...wich is the best?
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Topic Subject:6 popular Medit map starts...wich is the best?
Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-20-01 11:29 PM ET (US)         
Ok the setts are standard defaults...Wich start is better and why, were gonna pretend you can do all of these =). please rank them in number order.

1.Granary first --> pit
2.Pit with 2 eles
3.Pit with gazelle
4."close forest"--> dock first
5."close forest"-->granary -->dock
6.pit w/o animals--> dock

I define a close forest by one that you can see when you start the game. That has very little walking distance to your TC. Also when You have a close forest when should you pit? I've been pitting after I tool but I think this may be too late.

Also a little off topic but I was surprise how good palmy can be.While playing random Civs today my Kronic_skier and Kronic Ashes played SGT_peon Broken_king and Broken_basic. I managed to get FAST berries and had started villager production again by 1:45 any way I managed to be bale to boom almost as goodas with shang and mino...very weirdgot to bronze at 25:30 with 45 villagers...not bad too make a long story short I overan king with CA and we eventually won. But I still think palmy has a fighting chance =).
Strange how 1 game I play with em I do great and the next I suck =).BTW if any of u 5 read this thread it was a gg.

~~Shiny_411

AuthorReplies:
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-21-01 04:18 PM ET (US)     1 / 12       

As usual, I will start by stating that there is no single best [insert item to be ranked], though some may be better adapted for a given situation.

1. gazelle/wood pit = Early villies flow as usual, and you can spend some of that 120w on docking earlier. You don't really start chopping earlier since you still need as many people on food, except for persia whose hunting bonus is a strong incentive for going with this start.

2. ele/wood pit = Since they don't run like gazelles, you can pit while waiting for the 2-3 extra villies you need to kill them without losses. Other than that, see #2.

3. granary+pit = Stable combo with any civ, maintains villie production so you'll eventually have more woodcutting power. Takes a while to start up your boat production though, most granary+pit starters don't dock before 5 mins.

4. close forest + dock = Not good. Even 2-3 tiles of walking distance will affect your early woodcutting, which will snowball into slow boat production, then long villie delays, thus slower villie production, and so on... try #6.

5. "close forest"+granary+dock = not as bad since you at least aren't relying on your dock for early villie production, but you'd still be better off pitting before docking imho. Try #2.

6. pit+dock = Less villies/more boats, which translates to less wood/more food. You're likely to lose the sea when the booming behemoths come out to play, but you can have a fast bronze (mino=12-13 mins) *and* large food stockpiles to take the land with. Also simple and not very map-dependant, all you need to worry about is woodcutting and fishing, neither of which requires much scouting work.

7. pit+granary+dock = Slight slowdown due to having to get some wood before placing the granary, but if you can't find food early this could be a way to keep your villies productive while you search.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-21-01 05:10 PM ET (US)     2 / 12       
Well my first priority at the beginning of any game is to experience no villager lag. That means having 5 villagers gathering berries/hunting, or 4 villagers shore fishing by 1:00 to experience no lag.

By the time you build a pit and drop either 2 eles or 5 gazelle, you are going to have villager lag. If you pit wood and go dock, you will have severe villager lag.

Having stated all of this, here is how I rank the various starts:

1) Granary by 1:00=> Pit by 4:00=> Dock by 5:00 This should always be the ideal. It gives you the safest food early, hence the best woodpile later in Stone.

2) Pit Eles by 1:00, experiencing 0:20-0:40 villager lag (1-2 villagers)=> Dock by 4:00. You are risking some villager lag looking for that sweet spot by eles, hoping for no dead hunters, to get a faster dock than the standard start. These times can easily become having one dead villager, and no constant food flow for well past 2:00 if not careful (and lucky)

3) "Close forest" so dock by 1:00. No need to pit early will give you your boom earlier. This should be an early Tool, but must be backed up with a massive land attack in early Tool because you can't win sea because you lost 6-10 woodies doing this.

4) Pit w/out food and dock. Little later than #3 and a little more real villager lag. Have to Tool attack on land also.

5) Pit w/ Gazelles. You just have to have 5-6 villagers hunting Gazelles initially, and it takes time to get 5-6 Gazelles dropped and some will be far enough from your pit that you will have to have 6 villagers on them to maintain constant villager production. That is after you have experienced a long villager lag at the beginning getting the pit up and gazelles dropped.

6)"Close Forest"=> granary => dock. I have learned that if you have to pit a forest, pit it before you dock. If you don't need to... then have your foragers build one when they are done with the berries. This combo happens rarely to me though.

Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-21-01 09:48 PM ET (US)     3 / 12       
I find some of the feed back kinda odd. I would think eles +a wood pit would be the best start.5 villagers take out an ele easy and eles can be leaded a little with a small amount of villager lag and an instant wood pit + about 1-2 minutes of faster wood cutting equals faster dock more FB and a quicker tool. the one place where I have trouble is theres about a 20-40 sec villagers lag between eles and when the boats pick up the slack but I have 5 extra cutters so thats some extra boats up and running faster anyway. I can get to tool without having to stop much villager production at the end and ina good time. Where am I wrong here? =)
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-22-01 02:51 PM ET (US)     4 / 12       
BlitzkreigComin:
"Well my first priority at the beginning of any game is to experience no villager lag."

You're trading villie lag for FB lag. This may be a good trade if you're going for wood-intensive naval warfare, but not so good if you're looking for food to make axers or bronze early. So which start is better would depend on what you're trying to achieve.

"By the time you build a pit and drop either 2 eles or 5 gazelle"

That seems to be a common mistake, scattering the gazelles by building the pit first and only then hunting them. The thing to do is first kill the gazelles so they're all in one nice clump, then build the pit. Sure there's some loss of meat, but it's nothing compared to the slowdown from walking further for every chunk of meat.

"You just have to have 5-6 villagers hunting Gazelles initially"

Wrong. 2-3 villies hitting one gazelle at a time is all it takes, and is in fact the most efficient. With a bit of practice you can kill a whole pack of gazelles without any of them moving, so you can pit beside the nice clump and have amost no walking distance.

That means if you do it right, pit by gazelles should bring food as fast as berries with the same amount of villies. IF that pit is also by wood, you save the 120w granary for later and use it now for an earlier dock. Also you don't have to chop stragglers to afford a pit, so you gain some time there too...

It all comes down to food vs wood though. Which do you need more in tool? Go for the other early on.

Shiny:
"I would think eles +a wood pit would be the best start"

Problem is it takes 5 villies to slay an ele, 3 or 4 can't do it very easily. That means you have to wait till you have 5 villies before you can get food from an ele spot, whereas that's not the case with SF, berries or gazelles.

"the one place where I have trouble is theres about a 20-40 sec villagers lag between eles and when the boats pick up the slack but I have 5 extra cutters"

Try it with persian if you didn't. They only need 3 villies on gazelles/eles instead of 5, you'd have 2 more choppers still so your boats could pick up the slack even earlier.

Mino with their cheap boats might be able to make more faster, so you might get started early with them too.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-22-01 06:25 PM ET (US)     5 / 12       
I think starting patterns all boil down to risk. You risk villager lag if you pass up your berries to find a sweet spot. On Medit maps wood is so important because of the early navy battles. This risk usually goes against you and you produce a "no show" because you are so far behind your opponent's economy early.

Sure a ele/wood pit is better, but you bring on new challenges. Your exploring needs to be better with your first 3 vills, your initial hunting/pitting requires perfection, and the outcome if achieved "perfect" is docking 0:40-1:20 earlier.

Conti maps are less risky. I always look for 2 sf by a forest to pit for initial start. I can dock by 3:00 then, and be on my way to some serious villager numbers and Age times.

If I get 3-4 sf by a forest/coast on Conti I can guarantee victory against almost anybody at 4:00. That is because I will have Tool times close to 10 minutes with pops over 40 and I can wall in my coast/forest area to protect me until I win, which won't take long with starts like that.

Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-22-01 06:33 PM ET (US)     6 / 12       
Blitz:If I see berries I'm gonna drop a granary becase I don't want to look for that sweet spot but every 7 games or so I find the eles and wood before my berries. That is when I'm wondering if it works well too use this.

Wedsaz: I'm not playing persia because there bronze sucks and so does there Iron economy. I might If I was good at tool rushing.

Also You said that.:

Problem is it takes 5 villies to slay an ele, 3 or 4 can't do it very easily. That means you have to wait till you have 5 villies before you can get food from an ele spot, whereas that's not the case with SF, berries or gazelles.

I noticed u mentioned that you primarily play reveal map game. on nonreveal usually you have 4-5 villagers before you find your food source. Therefore this would be a much smaller problem.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-22-01 08:34 PM ET (US)     7 / 12       
BlitzkreigComin:
Hunting does not require more exploration than berries. In fact, in the games I've played lately I haven't found my berries in the first 3 mins but usually found 2 hunting spots.

Hunting spots are more common on medit than berry spots, and there are usualy 2 at about the same distance as said berries, though there's no certainty as to whether they'll be eles or gazelles until you find them of course.

On medit wood is everywhere, so you have about the same chance of finding hunting+wood as you have of finding your berries, and at about the same distance. Occasionally you might even get a gold mine near the same spot, though that of course is rare.

Shiny:
Yeah, going for the first food source you see seems like a good idea if you have strategies based on both. You should get no villie lag with either start if you know how to do it right. If you hunt, you can dock earlier so take advantage of that. If you pick berries, your early food comes in faster so you can tool earlier.

"I'm not playing persia because there bronze sucks and so does there Iron economy."

Let's look at their weaknesses, their strenghts, and how their strengths can be used to patch their weaknesses.

Persia's Weaknesses
Doesn't get chariots as goldless units. Big deal, more than half the civs don't get chariots, not the least of which are yammy and mino.

Doesn't get coinage or siegecraft, but neither does ever-popular shang. Doesn't get craftsmanship, but neither do mace and sumerian. Palmy doesn't get the farm upgrades either.

No artisanship means they don't get that extra +20% woodcutting 2 mins into bronze. That only applies once the opponent gets it, which nowadays isn't before 16-17 mins.

Doesn't get +1 range from artisanship, which hurts their galleys and compies. However, it's a much smaller difference than shang's galleys vs hittite's, or shang's compies vs mino's. Again this doesn't apply until about 16-17 mins.

Animals don't last as long as berries, so you can't rely on your hunting bonus the whole game.

Persia's Strenghts
Probably persia's greatest strenght is their ability for fast age times. I've only been able to do 11 min bronze / 18 min iron with them (after an 8 min tool), but I've seen some players bronze in 10 mins and wipe everyone out with them.

They do have fully upgradeable stable units all the way to post-iron, missing only scythes at that. Their archery suffers from missing ballistics and range upgrades, but they do get the full variety from compies to HHAs to EAs.

Moving Mountains to Fill Canyons
Alright, first things first. How to turn that early hunting bonus into economic advantages that could last the whole game.

I usually put only 3 villies on eles/gazelles once they're down, the rest go to wood. Because I'm chopping for a pit and didn't spend on a granary, I can start docking almost immediately. About 1:30 later, those 3 join my woodies after gathering enough food to last me 4:00. That means I get a big jump on boat production without losing villie production. To make a long story short, by 6 mins I'm clicking on the tool button with 18-20 land villies and an unknown (but good) number of boats. That's the short-term hunting advantage turned into a strong long-term economy.

Tooling earlier but without any loss of villie production means getting woodworking earlier, which has a large effect on wood production. That means bigger wood stockpiles, or more scout ships, or more FBs - whichever you prefer.

...

Ok, now let's talk about artisanship. You bronze in 11, they bronze in 15. What economic gains can you make from that, with no market upgrades to research?

Town Centers. You have a good stockpile of food and wood, and 4:00 to spread TCs and villies all over the map before your opponents can start doing the same. By the time they bronze, you could have 50+ reals and a dozen TCs popping more out. That's a lot of villies, chopping a lot more wood that that 20% you'd get from artisanship.

...

Your compies are missing a range. Oh, sob sob. Well, there's several things you can do. Mixing other units might help, everything from cavs/camels to STs and even slingers. As a general rule you should try and stop them from getting there, but that doesn't have to mean tool rushing. Remember those fully upgradeable stable units? Well, you should use them almost every game. While bronzing put some guys on gold, get cav leather, toolworking, pump out a scout and build 1-2 more stables. Once in bronze pump out a few cavs, group them with your scout (so you can see something) and rush those annoying little danahibs. You should catch them just as they're starting tool age, putting up their first market, and kill off at least half their woodies. Switch to camels after your first cavs are out, and get ready to make compies and STs.

Ok, not much can be done about the galleys' missing range though right? Well, you get those 4 mins earlier too. You can bronze about the same time as they tool, so your galleys will be fighting their scout ships and your scout ships...
well, you know.

What if, with a lot of help from all the deities anyone ever believed in, they somehow live long enough to get artisanship with more than 2 pitless villies to apply it on? You can tough it out for a while, battles can take time with economies on that scale, but you'll want to be ready to iron by then. HAs/EAs and cats can handle compies, and your triremes (with 7 base range to a galley's 6) will have equal range but a lot more firepower.

So the key then, is how to use that hunting bonus to get ahead, and how to gain from your blazing speed at each step.

"I might If I was good at tool rushing."

As I mentioned above, cav/camel rushing is fine too. I'm not much of a tool rusher either, but rushing a stone age opponent with cavs can be pretty entertaining even so.


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Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-22-01 09:26 PM ET (US)     8 / 12       
Well well well where do I start.

BlitzkreigComin:
Hunting does not require more exploration than berries. In fact, in the games I've played lately I haven't found my berries in the first 3 mins but usually found 2 hunting spots.

This is 100% BS. End of story.

If you can't find berries in 3 min than something is seriusly wrong.

About sweet spots with gold. not worth it the gold block your way unless it is behing the pit and usually slows ya down way to much for the 120 wood savings IMO.

Persia's Weaknesses
Doesn't get chariots as goldless units. Big deal, more than half the civs don't get chariots, not the least of which are yammy and mino.

agree with ya here there nice but not needed

Doesn't get coinage or siegecraft, but neither does ever-popular shang. Doesn't get craftsmanship, but neither do mace and sumerian. Palmy doesn't get the farm upgrades either.

would only play shang/palmy in those groups and that's only because of there economic advantages.

No artisanship means they don't get that extra +20% woodcutting 2 mins into bronze. That only applies once the opponent gets it, which nowadays isn't before 16-17 mins.

Don't know about other out there but I get asap at 15 min

Doesn't get +1 range from artisanship, which hurts their galleys and compies. However, it's a much smaller difference than shang's galleys vs hittite's, or shang's compies vs mino's. Again this doesn't apply until about 16-17 mins.

agree with ya here

Animals don't last as long as berries, so you can't rely on your hunting bonus the whole game.

I usually put only 3 villies on eles/gazelles once they're down, the rest go to wood. Because I'm chopping for a pit and didn't spend on a granary, I can start docking almost immediately. About 1:30 later, those 3 join my woodies after gathering enough food to last me 4:00. That means I get a big jump on boat production without losing villie production. To make a long story short, by 6 mins I'm clicking on the tool button with 18-20 land villies and an unknown (but good) number of boats. That's the short-term hunting advantage turned into a strong long-term economy.

I think this is BS I'll try it some but tooling by 8 min with 30-40 villagers...

Your gonna have a relatively small economy and a 4 minute window where the opponent is open It would be a mistake to not attack now I highly doubt you will have the resources to put down a dozen TC's and boom villagers from all of em...and have enough boats for a navy...

So lets recap. You make an army of galley to defeat a mino's navy while putting down 12 TC's and booming out of all of them and making a forward base with 3 stables cranking out cav/camels. Also your getting to Iron while doing this and crankin out HA and AE.

Well I can some 90% of this by one word

BullSh*t

have a nice day =)

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-23-01 03:08 PM ET (US)     9 / 12       
Shiny:
Try an RM medit w/reveal (vs computer if you like) and look for yourself how much hunting there is. It looks to me like there's as many hunting spots as berry patches, though the berries contain more total food.

As for me not finding berreies before 3 mins, yes there's something seriously wrong. It's probably just my very poor scouting skills - but I always seem to find wildlife first for some reason?!

> I think this is BS I'll try it some but tooling
> by 8 min with 30-40 villagers...

> Your gonna have a relatively small economy and a 4 minute
> window where the opponent is open

A 3 min window in tool and a 4 min window in bronze.

~20 reals and ~20 boats is bigger than assy/yammy rushers
worked with, but less than modern booms. That's why I opt
for a scout+cavs rush, it's a very cost-effective to kill
a lot of villies very quickly, leaving most of your econ
for growing itself.

I'd recommend attacking on the sea in that 3 min tool
window for easy FB kills, then in bronze upgrading to
galleys and adding a land attack.

> It would be a mistake to not attack now I highly doubt
> you will have the resources to put down a dozen TC's
> and boom villagers from all of em...and have enough boats
> for a navy...

Not right away of course! Start with 1-2 extra TCs,
and have the extra villies you pump out chop wood
or pick berries. Keep making more villies and TCs
as fast as you can, and I think you could easily
get to a dozen TCs by 15 mins. Must make all those
extra villies pay for themselves.

> So lets recap. You make an army of galley to defeat
> a mino's navy while putting down 12 TC's and booming
> out of all of them and making a forward base with
> 3 stables cranking out cav/camels. Also your getting
> to Iron while doing this and crankin out HA and AE.

Not quite.

The galley navy would be relatively small, but they
would already be near mino's docks shooting up FBs
when mino pumps out their first few scout ships. You
won't need many galleys until ~15:40, since mino will
still be at scout ships until then.

I don't see a need to make a forward base for those cavs,
that's another advantage of cav rushing over tool rushing.
They can cross the map quickly, so you can build 2-3 stables
at home and get back to your econ. I usually go for only
2 stables actually, I find the scout helps the cavs enough
that 3-4 of them can wipe out a whole army of villies,
but the resources should be there for a 3rd stable if you
really like having large cavalry armies. It's just 150w.

> Also your getting to Iron while doing this and crankin
> out HA and AE.

Normally you shouldn't bother ironing with persia, your
opponents should be out of villies and FBs by then, but
I wan mentioning it was an option if for example you
"forgot" to rush or if you're in the pocket of a 3v3...
As usual it's preferable to rush properly of course.
cats, persian eles (=oversized scythes) and HAs would be
my choice of units in early iron, since they're hard
to stop using bronze units... or even iron units...

> have a nice day =)

I'll try, but I've got insane amounts of work to do...
maybe I can set up the connection to play RoR tonight,
we'll see... (zone: wedsaz)


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Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-23-01 03:29 PM ET (US)     10 / 12       
> Your gonna have a relatively small economy and a 4 minute
> window where the opponent is open

how big would your economy be? by 16 minutes the mino will be very close to knockin u off the sea and by 20 minutes your sunk since they get artisanship.

most dock block now so cav from home base are gonnma be screwed.

tell ya what when ya get on tonigh co-op with me and show me the strategy on the comp? won't take long...and the comp will be a push over.

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 06-23-01 04:07 PM ET (US)     11 / 12       
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-24-01 03:50 AM ET (US)     12 / 12       
Shiny:
I'd be happy to try, but I don't think I can give a good demo unfortunately.
 
Your econ upon reaching tool would be about 20+20, bronze could be 22+30 but I'd recommend spending the wood on warboats to secure the sea instead, and making more FBs after it's fairly safe.
 
Once you bronze you'd have enough for a cav rush, galley and impie/compie upgrades, and to start growing from 2-3 fresh TCs. Increase the number of TCs as your economy grows, and you should be fine.
 
"by 16 minutes the mino will be very close to knockin u off the sea" - That shouldn't be the case unless you intentionally let him. 2 scout ships at an enemy dock can kill 3 scout ships as they come out, and besides by then mino should have little or no woodies left. Start dominating him on the sea while he's still in stone, then hit him with cavs and galleys just as he tools - I wouldn't be surprised if most minos simply resign at that point.
 
"most dock block now so cav from home base are gonnma be screwed" - I see 3 easy solutions. The third is to just hack away at the dock with your cavs, it's surprising how little time it lasts. The second is to bring in STs, which you can then use to smash houses while your cavs hunt down villies. The first and possibly best option is a rarely used unit... the light transport. The main reason it isn't used much nowadays is the sheer size of armies (moving 30-40 CAs by transport isn't very practical), but a scout and 4 cavs in a transport is just right and can do a lot of damage. Come to think of it, I haven't seen this since playing with CD and friends back in AoE trial - damn I miss the good old days.

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