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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Most underused unit in RoR?
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Topic Subject:Most underused unit in RoR?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-17-01 00:13 AM ET (US)         
Well, what units are good but rarely used?

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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 06-17-01 11:00 AM ET (US)     1 / 18       
The cataphract in my opnion is a great anti-siege unit but is hardly used.

Also people really do underestimate the power of camels in bronze.


CenturionZ_1
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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-17-01 02:30 PM ET (US)     2 / 18       
Personally I think the Cataphract is the worst Super Unit in RoR. Too expensive and not dominating on the battlefield against anything.

Units that have been put on the back burner are the slow foot units. Acedemy and Barracks units in Bronze can be a good offensive weapons flooding opponent's land. 5-6 Rax booming Shorties is cheap and can sure make a big mess of an opponent.

The chariot in Bronze hardly gets used. Camels and Cav are used a lot more out of the stable than the Chariot. That is kind of strange because the Chariot gets upgraded to the best super unit in the game - the Scythe Chariot while the Camel and Cavalry are duds as the game progresses later and later.

The Scout is great unit in Bronze and Iron. Few people get the most out of Scout after they find their opponent's initial base in Tool.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-17-01 11:16 PM ET (US)     3 / 18       
BlitzkreigComin:
cataphract - expensive scythe lacking area damage, but still the best anti-siege alternative for civs that lack real scythes
 
common chariot - fine mounted unit, even disregarding the fact that he later turns into one of the best iron units
 
scout - goldless cavalry available to any civ.
 
infantry - Yes, they're cheap but villies can simply run away from them, especially once they have the wheel. I think a scout, a few cavs and a handful of slingers can demolish an opponent far more effectively in early bronze.

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 00:18 AM ET (US)     4 / 18       
wedsaz:

Any mounted unit does good against Cats. Cataphract drains the gold and can't compete well against Scythe and Eles. I'd save the resources and spend elsewhere.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 02:50 AM ET (US)     5 / 18       
BlitzkreigComin:
I agree scythes would be a better siege counter, but not all civs have them. For civs like mace which lack scythes, cataphracts may be the best available anti-siege unit. Obviously, considering how much they chew into your gold supply, you'd want to use them sparingly; luckily, it doesn't take many to demolish a lot of siege anyway.
 
I know they aren't that good against most things and cost a lot of gold, but as anti-siege support for non-scythe civs they're worth their weight of the stuff. Just so long as you're using them to counter something really expensive like large hordes of catapults of ballistas, it shouldn't be a problem. The moment enemy siege is gone, back them up into your towers (you do tower in late iron to stop waves of scythes, right?) and advance your other troops (phalanxes+compies are nice w/mace) to start clearing the map again.

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Boneser again
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 06:17 AM ET (US)     6 / 18       
Cmon wedsaz, you can do it! I know you can. Just repeat after me.

Blitz is right...
Blitz is right...
Blitz is right...

There that wasn't so hard was it?

Cataphract is a complete waste unless you are swimming in resources with nothing else to spend on. I wouldn't even waste it on a civ that doesnt have scythes. HHA's maybe but not phrax.

Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 10:19 AM ET (US)     7 / 18       
Nuff said!

Knowledge is not power until it is formulated into an organized plan of action.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 06-18-01 11:57 AM ET (US)     8 / 18       
Yup. The Cataphract upgrade cost is way too high - the Cent upgrade is about as expensive, but the Cent gets something for that.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 01:09 PM ET (US)     9 / 18       
Boneser:
I *know* cataphracts are good vs cats and helos, because I used them and they worked fine. The cataphract upgrade is important specifically *because* simple hcavs are so weak, the extra 30-35 hps often makes the difference in allowing them to get the job done.

Aside from that, yes they're the worst unit that was ever seen in RoR, including the blind lame priest.

So, I think there's this small but important exception to what Blitz was saying, but aside from that yes, blitz is right.

The reason it's important is that some non-scythe civs, mace especially, have a reputation for being completely unable to stop advanced siege. This is not true, mace can use cataphracts to take out said siege for less than the cost of said siege, though still more than a scythe solution. If there's any other effective option at all though... such as scythes, or persian eles, or even greek cents... Blitz is right.

peter:
Ever tried cents against helos? Not pretty.

That's where the cataphracts come in. They can take 4 cat stones or 5 helo shots, and run fast enough to avoid most of it. That means they can get close enough to wipe out siege weapons.

However, I wouldn't use them for anything else than killing siege. They're specialists, ok?

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 01:33 PM ET (US)     10 / 18       
wedsaz:

Cataphract (or any Stable/Barracks/Acedemy unit) is not going to be effective against Helos. Maybe Scythe, but only because they cost resources that never run out.

Cataphract kills Cats, and so does Scouts. I'll stick with the Scouts and spend my resources elsewhere.

CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 02:50 PM ET (US)     11 / 18       
Have none of you seen a Yammy cataphract rush? They destroy you town to shreds and cents vs cataphracts isn't pretty.

CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
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Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 02:58 PM ET (US)     12 / 18       
ROTFLOL!

Knowledge is not power until it is formulated into an organized plan of action.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 03:20 PM ET (US)     13 / 18       
BlitzkreigComin:
Against massed helos I would choose EAs or compies for cost-effectiveness. However, both of these units get slaughtered by the cats in a dual siege mix.

With non-scythe civs against massed cats I do usually go with scouts, actually. The problem is when there's helo or archer support, in which case the scouts die too quickly to be of any use.

Against dual siege, the only option is something fast (unlike eles or infantry) and short-ranged (unlike HHAs or CAs) with a lot of hitpoints (unlike scouts or even camels). That leaves only scythes (first choice if your civ has them), or if you really must, cataphracts.

So many people believe mace is totally helpless when facing dual siege, that I always research cataphracts with them. I'll be using lots of those cavalry guys like it or not, so they might as well be as good as I can make them.

Cataphracts suck but they're better than letting enemy siege waltz into your town without any resistance...

CenturionZ_1:
207/28 = (rounded up) 8.
160/5 = (no rounding needed) 32.

In short, a centurion could take 2 cataphracts and come out with a quarter of his hps. Not pretty indeed.

As for destroying a town, killing villies, or simply causing chaos among vulnerable civilians, you could do that with armored clubbers too.

Sumerian Leper:
ROFLMAOWCCOMN!


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peter
HG Alumnus
posted 06-18-01 04:09 PM ET (US)     14 / 18       
wedsaz:
You forget one tiny detail, and that is that it takes 2.5 minutes to get the cataphract upgrade. that means you have to spend that awful 2000 f + 850 g before you actually see those cts + helos enter your town. If your opponent then thinks better of it and attacks with summat else you wasted quite a bit of recources. Cents at least get a decent +10 attack; and consider armoured eles: much cheaper upgrade cost but you get a big bang for your buck there
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-18-01 05:28 PM ET (US)     15 / 18       
peter:
That is indeed a detail. Between craftsmanship and the helo upgrade, it takes about the same amount of time to research helos.

Likewise, considering you only need a few 'phracts to take out a whole lot of cats and helos, the initial investment is a small matter. The gold cost is only slightly morethan researching scythes, and the food cost is... well, if you're not using eles vs helos food isn't such a big deal in iron imho, you can get a lot of it very quickly with either boats or farms.

Phalanxes get the job done just fine, the cent upgrade is overkill. AEs rock, but mostly on the offensive once you're winning anyway - for defense you're better off with phalanxes, EAs/compies and scythes/phracts.

Besides, we're getting lost here. I don't think cataphracts are underused - it should be experts using them instead of newbies, but they aren't underused.

One unit which I think is severely underused is EAs. They are imho the compies of the iron age, when massed they do a great job of taking out HHAs and even helos with minimal losses, as well as infantry and possibly even scythes. Their only weaknesses seem to be vs cats, AEs and priests, two of which can be easily dispatched by scythes. The selection of civs which has them is quite nice as well - persia, phoenie, hittite, egypt and carth, all great civs in their own way.


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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 06-19-01 01:39 PM ET (US)     16 / 18       
Right I agree with the masses: Cataphracts are a load of pants in RM but in DM they can be a saving grace against cats, especially when you mingle a couple of martyrs with them.

EAs are underused mainly because people reckon they burn through resources. BUT... one of the most underestimated forces in RMs is the might of sentry towers. Usually I stroll into a town with not a tower in sight and my Mace ST/Hoppers/Cav/Compie army wipe out any villager in sight.

Secondly, many people overlook the helo in DM opting for the catapult and forgetting the cheapness of helos. Finally, my last overlooked unit has to be Fire Galleys. In most sea wars it's Triemes and Juggernaughts. No one realises Fire Galleys are very powerful.


CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-19-01 02:00 PM ET (US)     17 / 18       
Ahhhhh Centy thanks for reminding me about the Fire Galley. I had forgotten about them, and they are very underused. They can alter the battle against War Galleys and Triemes. I really don't know why more people don't use them, other than they cost gold.
Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 06-23-01 08:00 AM ET (US)     18 / 18       
I agree with most off ya'll on the underused-but-not-useless units, I don't think any unit is useless.

The fire galley is awesome, it makes people build afew tiles inland (even towers!) and building inland is time consuming...

Carth has a powerful Fire Galley/Trireme combo, the best (by far) in the game, send in the Fire Galleys to take out the triremes and docks, now send in the Trirmes to take care of the Juggernauts and inland targets.


*The might of Carthage, victors from the Cedars of Lebanon to the Pillars of Hercules,
the great traders and the worlds greatest navy.
Prepare to be defeated!
*We are Macedonians, we don't convert that easily.
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