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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » King of the seas
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Topic Subject:King of the seas
Shiny
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 10:21 PM ET (US)         
I was thinking about it wich civ do you guys think are the best on the sea? I was thinking Hittite,I know it sounds strange but even though minoan can make 4 war ships to you 3 after 12 hitite ships the tide begibs to turn with 15 hittite ships beating 20 minoan ships with a few left over, It just gets uglier from there on. The way I see it is..

Yamato owns early tool when everyome can crank out 9 SS immediatle but don't have the docks for it

Minoan get competitive after there first 12 or so

but Hittite owns all if they can mass 12-15+..wich isn't too hard not to mention they OWN yam/minoan on land. the Thing is you HAVE to rush the hittite on sea or he gets too powerfull and by the time your first 3 SS get there he has 3 and while u fight his next 3 pop out while you start sending yours and they get out numbered UNLESS you can build your docks close to him...I think yam would do a LOT better here than minoan.

Hittite can also Iron after they win the sea or get 6 ST wich can demolish LARGE numbers of compies while there CA just run by the compies and kill villies(wich is extremely annoying...).

could I be wrong here?

pls comments are very welcome =)

AuthorReplies:
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 11:10 PM ET (US)     1 / 16       
There are areas that all of these top 3 water map civs can exploit other's.

I know that I have used Yam the most in my 1v1's that I have played. I always would go up against Mino and Hittite. I can't ever remember losing the sea as Yam. When I lost it was due to early land Tool attacks. Whenever players just battled it out with me on the sea, it seemed like Hittites die fast on the sea in Tool.

Having said that I know in 3v3's when an opponent can mass a huge Hittite navy it gets very difficult. You see arrows shooting from 5-6 ships deep while your front line of 1-2 deep return fire. I have had a mass of Hittite War Galleys along coasts and at dock blocks and there is no unit that can get the range to get to the coast until Cats come out to play.... then even it is costly to trade Cats for War Galleys.

In Iron though my Yammie power always makes quick work of any other civ. Hittite, Minoan, Phoenician... bring them all on. Yam has no other use for wood than lots and lots of boats this late in the game.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-01-01 00:01 AM ET (US)     2 / 16       
In chronological order?
 
1. yammy - before mino's advantage can amount to much
2. mino - you save enough on 20+ FBs for extra docks
3. hittite - once you can mass 15+ scout ships
4. carth - we're talking pure navy right, not survival chances on land? carth fire galleys + triremes might be able to compete with hittite's warg/fgal combo
5. persian - once they add a few cat boats (11 range w/engineering) to make up for their fast-firing triremes' poor range
6. phoenie - massed phoenie juggernauts kill anything, they even seem to do well vs hittite hcats if they come too close to shore!
Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-01-01 00:31 AM ET (US)     3 / 16       
Your right about the first 3 but...I'd ya atleast 90% of games the sea is decided in tool - bronze. rarly do I see much Iron age naval combat...

Still wavering between minoan + hittite just can't choose who to play. *sigh*

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-01-01 01:17 PM ET (US)     4 / 16       
Shiny:
Agreed, the fighting does usually happen in tool and bronze.

Of course, I think persian and phoenie can still hang with yammy/mino/hittite in tool/bronze for other reasons...

I would say which civ to take depends a lot on what your allies and opponents are playing.

mino vs yammy - only a bit slower but larger navy and stronger bronze

hittite vs mino - again only a bit slower but stronger bronze and does better in large boat wars

yammy vs hittite - the difference in dominant timeframes is large enough to swallow hittite whole, they just can't survive yammy's early bonuses... and even if they do survive in a weakened state, yammy's bronze units and bonuses are almost perfect for beating down a weak hittite

Of course other civs can play too like shang, phoenie, palmy, persian, mace, roman, assy, egypt, sumie...

RFR_Gold
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 10:19 AM ET (US)     5 / 16       
1. hittie
2. yam
3. mino
4. phoe


Perisan dont stand a chance. their wood cut sux, and range

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 12:58 PM ET (US)     6 / 16       
RFR_Gold:
1. Persian doesn't spend much wood on CAs or siege.
2. If you add a few cat triremes (w/eng) to their trireme pack, those will outrange enemy triremes.
3. If the enemy doesn't shoot at the cat triremes, they die from the area damage. If they go forward the few tiles needed to shoot at the cat triremes, they come within range of your fast-firing triremes and die anyway.
4. Persian can be first to tool, bronze and iron if you know how to jump-start them. That means your scout ships meet fishing boats, war galleys vs scout ships, and your fast-firing triremes fight war galleys of *equal range* (except hittite, but any cat trireme backup and hittite's navy swirls down the drain).
 
So the key to the persian navy is cat triremes. A 4/1 ratio of triremes and catremes/juggs is about right I think.
Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 02:07 PM ET (US)     7 / 16       
I've never thought of it that way, Perisia has good Triremes, bad range, but good Triremes, but with catapult-Trireme support... that might be something there...

*The might of Carthage, victors from the Cedars of Lebanon to the Pillars of Hercules,
the great traders and the worlds greatest navy.
Prepare to be defeated!
*We are Macedonians, we don't convert that easily.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 04:31 PM ET (US)     8 / 16       
Caesar_Constintine:
Yeah, persia is a very interesting civ.
 
I think their biggest bonus on medit isn't their eles or triremes though. Their biggest bonus is they can skip the granary and pit by wood+deer (their hunting bonus is 25% faster than SF!!!), getting a big head start on boat booming which can propel them to a solid (22 villie+16 FB or so) 11 min bronze. That means multiple TCs, cavs vs axers, war galleys vs scout ships.
 
And deer herds are about as common as berry patches in RoR. Lately I've been finding deer more often than berries in my early exploration.

[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 06-02-2001 @ 04:31 PM).]

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 06-02-01 05:39 PM ET (US)     9 / 16       
wedsaz:
you forget that you lose much food to rotting that way - a gran start is still better, then when you got a fair amount of vills you can have the lot of them on gazelles to get the max amount of food from them. Only a dumbo start is better cuz dumbos don't rot so fast as gazelles.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 06:16 PM ET (US)     10 / 16       
peter:
You forget that long before those gazelles are rotted away, you're getting all the food you need from your FBs and your villies are best used chopping wood.
 
Dumbo start would be less effective because you need 5 villies to kill a dumbo, and you want to get started as fast as possible.
 
In other words, it's the fastest possible way to get docks up without any delays in villie production. A wood pit, three villies picking meat, and everybody else chopping away for those docks and FBs. By the time your gazelles are rotten, your FBs should be bringing in enough food to maintain villie production by themselves.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 06:34 PM ET (US)     11 / 16       
wedsaz:

I hate to do the usual "Blitz raining on wedsaz parade" but Persia isn't gonna be fastest to Bronze and Iron if you "jump start them". After your initial deer and eles are used up, Persia is a dud civ. Shang will be faster, and Yam has more to offer in Tool and Bronze armies.

All of Persia's military bonuses are in Iron and you never get to use them because Persian gets crushed in Bronze. You are left with Compies, Cav, Stone Throwers, and War Galley's with no bonus.

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 06-02-01 07:07 PM ET (US)     12 / 16       
wedsaz:
Rubbish. Must be one of your strats in the Minoan fastboom line.
Fishing by FB is even slower than farming - that simply means that you get food faster any other way. At the start of the game you need that edge. So if you spend only 3 Persian vils on hunting you really waste their bonus. And you waste lots of good food. Fout vils can gather 273 food from a dumbo - you just have to build your pit at a safe distance from the dumbo then lure it to the pit - that way you can do with less than four vils too.
Persia can't compete with other civs in Bronze - so your investment in several docks and many FBs is lost then. The only other thing I can think of is use your earlyTool time to build many Scout Ships (I won't use that hateful abbreviation) before the others can ever get them and when you've about lined the coast of the medit with ships so you can you can prevent the others to build anything there start fishing if you've a mind for it.
Read the Persia strat article in the Academy, there you'll find something useful.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 07:37 PM ET (US)     13 / 16       
BlitzkreigComin:
1. Snowball effect - fast wood pit = fast dock = more/earlier FBs = fast bronze with more food
2. Shang 1.0 - Most civs need 5 villies on deer (or berries) to maintain villie production. Shang's cheaper villies mean only 4 on deer (or berries) to maintain villie production. Persia's hunting bonus means only 3, so 2 extra woodies within those first few minutes of stone age while shang gets only 1 extra villie.
3. Shang 2.0 - An extra woodie for those few crucial early minutes means persia can get its docks up faster and crank out earlier FBs - let's say three extra FB over shang. Those three measly FBs gather 162f in the 3 minutes between 3:00 and 6:00, another 108f by 8:00 for a total of 270 extra food by tool. Add 50f from the gazelles and persia has 320f more than normal, while shang saved 210f on villies so persia is ahead of shang by 110f and three FBs at arrival in tool around 8 mins. Or if you stop producing FBs at the same number as shang, you're ahead 110f and 150w.
4. Shang 3.0 - The missing wood upgrades don't affect you until your opponent can research them, therefore I submit to you that persia's hunting bonus is economically superior to shang's villie bonus for at least the first 12 mins (or a minute after whenever your favorite shang opponents bronze).
5. Yammy 1.0 - In tool, yammy has cheap scouts and tougher scout ships. If both tool at 8 mins, persia (with *two* extra woodies early on, as yammy doesn't have shang's cheap villies) has +590f and +6 FBs - or you can build less FBs and keep the wood for scout ships, but persia's ahead in resources either way.
6. Yammy 2.0 - Persia, because of their extra food and/or extra FBs, can bronze first by 2-3 minutes. That means they can start making multiple TCs and boom woodies like mad. They can also have war galleys vs yammy's scout ships (and FBs) and cavs vs tool units (and villies) for 2-3 minutes.
7. Yammy 3.0 - Yammy finally bronzes, so now they get to make war galleys and cheap cavs. Persia however has camels and more woodies.
 
Don't worry about the rain Blitz, I always try to hold my (LAN?) parties indoors.
 
Note that not once did I mention iron in the above analysis. As I was telling Caesar_Constitine, persia's iron is just icing on the cake.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 07:59 PM ET (US)     14 / 16       
peter:
That would give you more food in the short run yes, but less FBs for the long run and what will you do with all that food in stone? There's only two options.
1. tool earlier - With less villies, which you'll catch up when your opponent tools. Meanwhile you have access to the tool units and can get the woodworking upgrade early so you'll end up with more wood. However by the time you tool, your opponent will have FBs bringing in food while you're picking berries, and those villies aren't chopping wood meanwhile. So if you forfeit boat booming in favor of tooling early, you have to rely on your ability to kill your opponent with a tool rush.
2. hoard it until tool for a really big rush - Why bother? With the boat boom method you'd get as much or more food by tool, and would still have the FBs so your villies can all be chopping wood - or can work on those other deer and eles you didn't hunt early, giving you so much food you won't know what to do with it.
 
3. It's more efficient to get wood once your villie production is stabilized, since you can't make villies faster than 1/20s out of your single TC while you *can* have multiple docks.

4. Yes it was a strat from my fastboom line, the 5th I think (after mino, phoenie, shang and palmy). The big advantage of this one is uninterrupted villie production, which is usually the downside to the fastboom. The reason I brought it up is I noticed a great similarity in blitz's guess at popov's conti strat the other day. Here you're restricted to persian as a civ but free to use other maps such as medit.

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 06-05-01 10:28 PM ET (US)     15 / 16       
Unless you get a lightning tool or something, I wouldn't try Persia on water...their woodcutting is sickengly bad in Bronze and Iron, and Yam remes are better anyway. Also their catremes and juggs (who uses those anyway, just use the wood on more of your faster firing remes) have no ballistics, so they're next to useless in sea combat. Also their boats early on are nothing special unless you get there really really early...and your advantage evaporates pretty fast because of no naval bonus + poor econ.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-06-01 00:40 AM ET (US)     16 / 16       
RomanGladius:
1. Their woodcutting in bronze and iron doesn't matter if the opponent never gets there.
2. You're thinking of triremes and juggs as separate groups - don't!. It's more like a water-based a cat/helo combo. If you advance to shoot at the juggs, the triremes get you. If you stay put, the juggs get you. If you run away, what good is that going to do? Besides, it's all irrelevant since you should win easily before 15 mins anyway.
3. Persian can bronze in 11 with a fair econ (about 23 vills 16 FBs I think). From there they can TC boom, cav (or camel) rush, and upgrade to war galleys. Yammy won't catch up for at least 3 mins, and you can do a lot of damage in 3 mins.
 
In short, it's as if you were comparing shang's iron with hittite's, and saying about shang 'your advantage evaporates pretty fast' because of no naval bonus and poor econ (what?! you play a civ that lacks coinage and siegecraft and a few government techs???). Who cares, when hittite is dead by then? Same thing with persia vs yammy, mino, and even more so vs hittite.
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