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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Build orders and Bronze times.
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Topic Subject:Build orders and Bronze times.
Shiny
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 12:32 PM ET (US)         
Lately I have been playing against some advanced gamers. I've noticed that I'm usually out boomed by 3-7 villagers and they usually hit tool a minute before me. What I'm curious about is what are your build orders and tool/bronze times.

I usually go (excluding houses)

Granary>Pit>Dock>Dock>Dock>Pit stop building villagers at 8 min, Giving me tool times of 12-12:30 and bronzes of 15-16 minutes if eft unmolested.


What do you experts do? I'd really locve to here from Blitzkrieg and SuN_Cam_popov if ya could, I would love to hear how you build up to get these times. That is amazing.

Quote Sun_cam_popov
Thread What's the best Civs against hittite in RM?

BTW, Yams can easily tool under 7:00 or brz under 12:00 (or a 13:00 with boom...meaning over 35 easily...which isn't too bad).

I prefer brzing in 12:00-13:00 with Yams (or 30 secs slower with slow civ) and having 'bout 35-40 villies


So please If anyone has comments or suggestions pls help me =).


FYI, always looking for someone to play intermediate lvl play throughout the day, just Email or ZM me Shiny_411 and Shiny_969@hotmail.com
AuthorReplies:
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 02:17 PM ET (US)     1 / 25       
WARNING: Here comes yet another long post from Blitz!

I have actually been doing a lot of research and practicing with this in the last two weeks.

For the fastest times, you can't dock until you are Tooling. Last night in our last game, the Egyptian by you didn't dock until he was Tooling. I think he did 17-19 villagers, had all on food, and was able to hit the Tool button immediately after making his last villager (his TC never went idle).

So if you have a ttl of 20 vills... making 17 and having the 3 you start with... puts you at (17*0:20=5:40). If you have no villager lag you can get to Tool in 7:40 with 20 villagers.

On Conti if you can pit a forest by 2 sf you can have a great start. You should be docking by 3:00 and have no villager lag up to that point. You can easily have 38-40 vills and hit Tool button under 9:00. Popov has done lots better, but I haven't yet. I came into a room after he did a 80 villager 15:00 Bronze a couple weeks ago. Those ppl were mad..lol

Now here is my Medit theory:

With proper dock spacing (a full screen apart) you can afford to make villagers up to the time you hit the Tool button at 10:00-11:00. Last night in our first game you had Tooled before me and had a decent navy at one of my four docks.

What I had going for me was a huge stockpile of wood and a spread out economy on the sea. Once I Tooled, I had 1300+ wood and made 3 Scout Ships at each of my four docks (I was Minoan), and gathered my navy at the dock closest to your navy (without you seeing them). You killed 3-5 fb,s and soon I had a bigger navy, and I knew I had more wood. I boomed Scout Ships out of all four docks until you and Korean were 100% off the sea.

Doing this I use basically the same building pattern as you do, I just make more real villagers in Stone Age.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Shiny
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 02:59 PM ET (US)     2 / 25       
15 min with 80 villagers...does this guy ever lose? The best I've ever done was 55 villagers in 15:20 thought that was good...

so Blitz after your berries run out do you get anothre food source or pit?

I know SF spots are awesome but on medit pretty tough to come by...


FYI, always looking for someone to play intermediate lvl play throughout the day, just Email or ZM me Shiny_411 and Shiny_969@hotmail.com
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 03:19 PM ET (US)     3 / 25       
BlitzkreigComin:
80 vills/boats in 15 mins? What civ was he playing?
Shiny
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 03:33 PM ET (US)     4 / 25       
double post.

FYI, always looking for someone to play intermediate lvl play throughout the day, just Email or ZM me Shiny_411 and Shiny_969@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Shiny (edited 05-31-2001 @ 03:34 PM).]

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 04:25 PM ET (US)     5 / 25       
Popov is one of the three best RoR players ever. He ranks with The_Sheriff and maimin_matty. I have only been in two 3v3's in which he lost, and I have never played, seen, or heard of him losing a 1v1 in the last year or longer.

I will say that he is so good I used to question (long long ago)if he was "too good" if you know what I am saying. But I know for a fact he doesn't cheat.

That game was Yams for him and he claims he can do more with Shang. He claims in a "perfect" game he can have 2 docks up by 3:00 if he gets a storage pit start by 2 sf and a forest. Even if you have 2 up in 4:00 you have really accomplished something. I aim for 1 up on a Medit map by 5:00!

He will basically dock a screen apart until he finds you on the coast (NOTE: this is just one of his strats.... he is very unpredictable). If you get such an early start on your boom like he does... you can have lots of options. Conti maps don't require an immediate navy in Tool, so I'm sure he has found the best way to optimize his resources.

If I can do a 50 vill 12:00 Tool and have 1000+ wood on a Medit map with first dock at 5:00... I can see how he can get more boats and faster times by docking before 3:00 and experiencing no villager lag in the process. That wood can go into more docks and fb's as well as have a nice Axer/Scout attack with all of that food surplus.

That is my guess to how he does it. He sure as hell isn't gonna give me the specifics though.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 04:56 PM ET (US)     6 / 25       
BlitzkreigComin:
I did the math, and a 34v/46b (80t) 15 min bronze seems barely possible.

I assume he wouldn't produce his FBs in the middle of a boat war so they have to be out before, say, 12 mins.

~ Mathematical Facts ~

I calculated:
1. how many vills he'd need on food (6)
2. when he could start chopping stragglers (1:00)
3. when he could get a pit up chopping stragglers (2:30)
4. how fast he could get 4 docks up (6:00)
5. by when he could have 46 FBs from 4 docks (11:30)
6. optmistic wood income after docks are up (528/min)
7. wood cost to produce 46 FBs at 8/min (340/min or 460/min)
8. How much wood he'd have at 12 mins (1128 or 408)
9. How much for 2nd pit, barracks, market, archery (545)
10. How much 4 warboats and 1 house cost (406 or 570)
11. How many warboats he could produce with what he had left (4)
12. And how fast he could make more (5.2/min or 3.7/min)
13. How fast food would come in with 46 FBs (600-800/min)

~ My Opinion ~

Overall, his strat seems to have the same strenghts and weaknesses as a fastboom only bigger and slower - a slowboom if you will.

Strenghts - huge econ a few mins into tool, especially food.

Weaknesses - vulnerable to an early rush (8:00-10:00) that would force him to flee+rebuild, which you can follow up with an attack on his large fishing investment while he has no wood to defend with.

Defeating - Axers/slingers followed by a rush on his FBs a minute or two later seem good. Following up with towers to prevent him returning to his wood pit would be a plus, so rome/babs would be good. Also starting up faster - with a mostly land economy - would be beneficial, so some points should go to persian/roman/yammy/phoenie/shang. Finally a good start on an early navy is useful, so some points to phoenie/yammy/roman/mino.

A amphibious roman takeover would therefore seem like the best strat to defeat popov's slowboom.

Of course, that's just a theory - please feel free to debate the significance of the numbers in the math section above.

Shiny
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 05:04 PM ET (US)     7 / 25       
Ya I guess I can see that on Conti a little better. Still amazing though. I have a big problem with exploring...often I explore too little and miss a sweet 2-4 eles and a storage pit or some SF...I usually get my dock up from 5:30 to 6:30...

Also blitz in some of your strategy guides u mention that you put only 5 villagers on berries. Don't you need 6 too keep a constant villager flow? And once again what happens to your berrie pickers after there berries run out?

if ya can spare the time I'd love to watch ya play a game =) because you consistantly out boom me by 5-10 villagers. sometimes more.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 05:10 PM ET (US)     8 / 25       
BlitzkreigComin:
Hmm, posted that before I saw your response - conti maps are indeed very different.

On the analysis side a sweet spot would mean he'd only need 3 docks and his initial pit could be the wood pit, so he'd tool faster.

However he'd still be just as wood-starved by 8 mins,
with the same kind of econ. If you attack his FBs from both sides at once, there should be no difference in the 'how to defeat' section.

Shiny
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 05:41 PM ET (US)     9 / 25       
This may help us understand a little better abut what he might have done.I could see this on conti because you don't need as many SS...


Neilkaz said

I have been away for a long time and while I was FX, being a member of the DaRq (Boomers) clan like me, has really learned how to super boom .
Huge totals are achieved by simply using a straight forward fish-to-tool/bronze method. This style is enhanced by only placing 5 vils on berries to accelerate wood chopping to get the first wood pit and then docks. Having 5 on berries means that you gather at best 45 food every 20 sec and must HC each vil, which can take time with lag vs my normal method of 6 on berries to build a slight food surplus w/out any delay in vil production. As a result, I typically end up with one more real vil when we both have 16ish and FX would have maybe one or two more FB's. Anyhow, I am unsure which method is better, but I feel better not having to panic to HC each vil at the exact moment in real games until my fishing gives me over 50 food intake every 20 sec. I also want the extra vil for more than just chopping wood later.

Anyhow, to run up huge boom totals and bronze by 15 simply put as many dudes on wood as you can afford and make as many as you can to tool by 12:15ish w/300 wood to slap up a market and stable or range while Qing a new vil. Click the bronze button by 12:40 and pump out FB like crazy all thru the transition to bronze. Do nothing but gather wood during the bronze transition with ALL vils.(Off course make houses as needed) Personally, I think 5 docks could be supported during the bronze transition by Phoe/Mino and possibly 6 once you have the wood chopping upgrade which still, from my calculations, will help you pump more FB.

Off course this leaves you with nothing but defenceless FB/vils and tons of food , but it is usful as a skill to practice micromanaging your booms. The food can be used pump upgraded clubbers/slingers and scouts, but in a real game I make VERY FEW FB after I click bronze with a normal bronze boom in the 14's-15 because I make some scout ships and military buildings to attack/defend.

How many FB can a dock create during the the 140 sec bronze transition ? Well FB take 27 sec to make (Correct your sheets Mr.Fixit..27 sec for FB not the 20 sec for FS ). and thus each dock makes 5 FB during the bronze transition.

Thus w/4 docks you can make 20 FB while bronzing which is how FX did his 14:15/75 !! Still it isn't so easy to tool by 11:30 with over 50 but he did .

In most real game situations I almost never want more than 60 total vils before bronze because I need the wood for warships/buildings and I need a few choppers on gold rather than wood during my bronze transition.

... just my thoughts.. neilkaz...

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 09:20 PM ET (US)     10 / 25       
Shiny:

The strength of my boom on Medit map comes between 7:30 to 10:00. Usually I have my third dock up by 7:30 and I can boom from 3 docks and my TC for a solid 2:30-3:30 giving me 3 reals a minute + 6 fbs a minute. So in 2:30 I can increase my economy by 22 villagers. If I choose to live dangerous and go till 11:00 that gives me 29 villagers made from 7:30-11:00!

About my start... I choose 5 on berries. Once they are done they build another pit and they chop wood. If you get all five picking with no walking distance you can have no/little villager lag. Having villager 6 chop rather than pick berries should give you a 20 second faster pit time.

wedsaz:

I'm not seeing where you would be wood starved at 8:00? At 8:00 you should have 27 reals because berries are used up (or real close to used up) so all but 2 forwards on wood. 25 reals should feed a good fb boom.

Conti maps make it difficult to kill fb's in Tool. Most players generally choose to kill land villagers first, then go for the sea economy. It is a long treck up a coast of a Conti map for Scout Ships rather than being in a bowl like Medit.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Shiny
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 10:04 PM ET (US)     11 / 25       
Another question how long do you continue to make FB afteryou begin to tool? started to give it a little slack instead of stopping when I hit the tool button but I ended up losin the sea (first time in like 7 1v1 games I still lost 2 of those though =))
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-31-01 10:55 PM ET (US)     12 / 25       
I never ever ever ever make fb's during Tool upgrade (on Medit maps). If I have "extra" wood I make a fourth and fifth dock closer to opponent rather than making fb's.

One thing to help you win the sea is to make more real vills. I will guarantee you that any Medit 1v1 I ever play I will boom Scout Ships out of 4-5 docks in nonstop from the moment I Tool until the sea is secure. Players will Tool before me and kill some fb's, but I always have enough food to Bronze still, and I will have an overwhelming navy due to my woodpile and crush them in late Tool/early Bronze.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
_The_Korean
Clubman
posted 06-01-01 04:09 PM ET (US)     13 / 25       
I used to be a very slow tool and bronzer but I'm finally starting to get quicker. If you have a good patch of berries you can easily get 5 vills to keep 50 food coming in every 20-25 seconds, leaving you no/little lag in villie production. I send vill 6 out to explore for some early exploration to find my opponent in case I want to tool rush. As for docks I am still amazed at how quickly come people get their docks up. I usually only have 2 docks up at the 7:30 mark on the average medit map if I started out with the usual granary start.

A recent game we played i remember seeing Blitz's achievements. I think it was a game with me and Shiny vs Blitz and Http_Clue. I thought I had a pretty good start with a 40 vill total and a pretty good tool time. Anyway I looked at achievements and Blitz still had about 12 more vills and tooled not too much later than me.... Anyway, we ended up losing that game. Blitz ruled on sea and with his economy the whole game. God damn you Blitz.

Later guys... I should be on the zone late tonight.


Zone Name: _korean420 and Kronic_Korean
Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-01-01 05:12 PM ET (US)     14 / 25       
Well I've managed to dock arounf 5:30 with a granary start but I have to stop building villagers at 9 min to get a 12 minute tool =/. While messing around in the scenario builder I noticed that 10 Hittite ST can't beat 35 minoan compies and the resources are giving hittite a favor. So are minoan compies invincible? Except for mace ST/ hoppers mace just messes everything up...

I was surprised how much that extra villager earlier on wood helped my dock times...u said it should speed it up by 20 secs but for some reason my dock times are 40 sec to a minute faster...thanks.

[This message has been edited by Shiny (edited 06-01-2001 @ 05:13 PM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-01-01 06:02 PM ET (US)     15 / 25       
Shiny:
The scen editor doesn't really give accurate results
for battle simulations, the AI messes everything up.

Normally compies end up in one big line to shoot,
or sometimes a tight pack, either way the STs hit
at least 3 compies at a time and that's what kills
compies... area damage. Also the computer has them
dodging the cat stones which humans (so popov doesn't
count) don't normally do.

A more realistic test could be to get a friend to
play the other side and try mino w/40 compies
against hittite w/10 CAs and 5 STs.

I haven't tested it, but my field experience is that
a few STs with CA backup maul compies, and hittite
STs are even harder to get rid of using cavs/camels.

Mace hoppers can fall to compies as well if you have
enough of them... I even saw some fall to impies once.
Mace should still beat mino though, half-cost STs rule!

sushmitg
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 09:05 AM ET (US)     16 / 25       
Well blitz if popov can do 80 villies in 15 minutes even u can.

When u were teaching me u made 50 villies by 11 minutes.

Then around 100 by 17, so u must have made 80 by 15.

You also bronzed by 17 so it aint bad at all.

And can u tell me in GMT that by what time are u on the zone so i cal also be there.

My time is GMT+5:30 so if possible tell me in my time.

Thankz alot

RFR_Gold
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 10:24 AM ET (US)     17 / 25       
sigh sigh sigh, is it so hard?
btw I have screen with popov makeing 101 vills/boat 15.01. DUH :P

Just stop make peons 7-8 and u will bronze at 14 with 40-50. simple

RFR_Gold
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 10:27 AM ET (US)     18 / 25       
U should be pittin around 3-4 and first dock HAVE to be laid before 5.10. otherweise u have to do second food before docks or u ll bronze in 16... whic sux.. 40 villsas max bronze.14. 50 villas max 15. 80 villas 16
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-02-01 11:34 AM ET (US)     19 / 25       
Hey Gold:

Nice to see you post here. You gonna make this a common thing? I hope so!

BTW I'm still mad about our last two games we've played together... the Tourney game and then that Conti 3v3. Both times I did a crappy Tool attack and you walked through me. (Although that Conti 3v3 I had no forest... whine whine whine).

Anyways you are a great player. See ya on the Zone! You gonna play EE when it comes out?

Shiny
Clubman
posted 06-09-01 09:27 PM ET (US)     20 / 25       
RFR is that while saving wood for a tool age navy? Cause I can get some pretty good villagers highs when I use my wood while tooling into FB I usually have my dock up by 5 minutes. thanks

FYI, always looking for someone to play intermediate lvl play throughout the day, just Email or ZM me Shiny_411 and Shiny_969@hotmail.com
Basic
Clubman
posted 06-14-01 07:39 PM ET (US)     21 / 25       
After reading this post i decided to give "slow-booming" a try . For this game a medit map,reveal map, with Minoan. I started with granary first ,3 pits before tool , 4 docks. Just hitting Bronze.... Cool Strat!
Basic
Clubman
posted 06-14-01 07:41 PM ET (US)     22 / 25       
Uhhh to see the whole ss just copy the link...the pop was all villies btw...
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-15-01 01:17 PM ET (US)     23 / 25       
Basic:
Which pop was all villies?

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Basic
Clubman
posted 06-15-01 03:28 PM ET (US)     24 / 25       
uhhh i am not real sure on that 1 but i tried it again with shang... berries first as bfor made villies till 11 which is 35-36? and up to 70 pop in boats didnt make any after hitting the bronze upgrade or i woulda went to 80...
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-15-01 05:24 PM ET (US)     25 / 25       
Basic:
Ok, I was worried there for a moment...

15 min bronze w/35 reals is possible, w/50 reals is not.

If you train them all before tooling though, you won't have even 1 second left to build your tool buildings...
so I assume you make at least 2-3 of those in tool
not in bronze, right?

Tried that with any other civs though? Mino, palmy, roman, persia, phoenie?


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