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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Practicing for Zone Play
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Topic Subject:Practicing for Zone Play
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 04:13 PM ET (US)         
I am just curious about everyone's practicing techniques. we often read posts here where people, indcluding me, post messages about strats they are practicing, etc. to kick some butt on the Zone. With gameplay being so different in Single Player vs. Zone play, what exactly do you practice, and how can it help you:

Here is what I do when I play Single-Player games:

1) I always "pretend" I'm playing a real player. That means same building patterns, forward builders, attack times, etc.

2) First 15:00 practice a lot. I have a routine that includes numbering, hot keys, and waypoints. I am continually trying to get my resources maximized and times trimmed. This is what I practice the most. The reason I do is because I have a hard time winning against good players with a bad spot. Unfortunately I am still a player that with a good spot I win, and with a bad spot I struggle and make mental mistakes because I am not in my rythym. I want to be a player that can win with a bad spot, not panicking and making mistakes at every instance once things are out of my "set in stone pattern".

3) Contests... I mean against myself. I see how fast I can get 200 villas (around 24:00 right now on a Medit map), or how fast I can Bronze, or how big I can boom and still have a 15:00 Bronze (63 is personal best).

4) 7 vs. 1 deathmatches. I set the comp on hardest, and play on all maps and map sizes. It helps me attack 2-3 places at once, and helps me micromanage with a lot going on. It is the ultimate in carnage!

So how and what do you practice?

AuthorReplies:
Dave
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 04:34 PM ET (US)     1 / 18       
Hey Blitz.

I have been doing a fair amount of practicing myself. But I play against the computer only to practice mechanical stuff. This means rehearsing quick bronze/boom strats (finally cracked 13 mins with medium size econ!). 95% of the time I have been just practicing the first 15 minutes - the exploration/resource gathering and build order sequence. I have been doing this so that in real games those things are done without much wasted time trying to remember things. This is important cause usually with good players you can expect to see some kind of attack early in tool and you need to have your strat down pat so as not to get thrown off course.

The remaining 5% of the time is just for fun and I play against 4 or 5 computer AI civs on hardest (always no reveal, def res). Of course it is not at all like playing against humans but since all 4 or 5 civs will bronze by 8-9 minutes, the simultaneous onslaught from 4 or 5 different directions kinda makes up for the brain-dead AI.

So I use the comp to practice some ideas and then go on the zone to adapt them for real play.

See ya on the zone!

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 06:34 PM ET (US)     2 / 18       
Against the computer? I used to practice how fast I could bronze, train certain troops and get them to the enemy town. (which I had to find of course)
 
For example, how fast can you get a scout and 3-4 cavs to the enemy town? How fast can you get 20 CAs there? 20 compies and 5 STs? Or whatever army combos you want to rush with.
 
Mostly, battles against the computer are fine until you meet the enemy.
 
Based on the results I heard from phill_phree though, I might want to get into AI design and make a campaign to help rookies train for zone play (when I have time for a life again). Few experts nowadays feel like showing the old, worn-out strats such as the assy bowman rush, yammy cav rush, assy CA rush and how to beat them. However, I think that new variations can come from these proven strats, and that rookies should learn them because they are the future.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 06:58 PM ET (US)     3 / 18       
Hey wedsaz, I know that you keep pointing out that you are very busy and all (but then again so are most people here). But can we meet sometime on the zone for a game? I'd like to see some of your strats in action. My zone id is origdavedave.
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 07:05 PM ET (US)     4 / 18       
I do pretty much what wedsaz does, except I focus mostly on doing everything perfect in the first 5 mins with my econ regardless of setts...I use random civs to be more familiar, as right now I only know a few really well, and I practice the mechanics like setting up and using hotkeys...that's one of my weakest spots right now.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 08:39 PM ET (US)     5 / 18       
Dave:
As soon as I can get a linux version of AoE, I'll be happy to play on the zone again. That's not about to happen though.
 
In case you were wondering what I've been busy with, check out UrMud.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 03:30 PM ET (US)     6 / 18       
"Linux version of AoE" (???) I had a sneaky feeling that you would give an elusive answer like that (my other guess would have been a Java version). So in other words, you don't want to show ...

BTW, what's wrong with a dual boot ... (never mind, don't answer ...)

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 04:06 PM ET (US)     7 / 18       
Dave:
1. For starters, if I'm caught playing AoE, my parents will skin me. I'm supposed to be working.

2. I'm on a linux computer, which happens to be the lan server. If it was in windows, the other computers wouldn't have internet access and my sister would skin me.

3. Our windows computers do have internet access, through my linux computer, but AoE doesn't seem to like it. When I try to start a game on the zone, it freezes.
 
Does that more or less sum it up?


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Dave
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 04:39 PM ET (US)     8 / 18       
wedaz:

That's ok - it is not exactly my concern if you can't play RoR. Although, it is unfortunate, at least the way you describe it.

I just thought that you might want to demonstrate what you are preaching. You know, sort of like, walk your talk. If your strats truly hold merit, then I think that people would like to see the proof in the pudding.

Just spewing forth magic numbers (with weird decimal parts) with glorious tales of lightning fast bronze times and undeniable victories is not very useful to us. It is hard to keep having to read the same old raggedy stories and claims and then test them out and find that they don't work. Many people here at this forum have tried your suggestions but all of the conclusions are the same: they don't work. So either:

1) your strats just do not work, in which case I would highly recommend that you refrain from spreading falsehoods.

or

2) your strats are valid but they require demonstration. And if this is the case, then I think that most people are open minded enough to welcome your ideas and input.

So can *you* appreciate where other people are coming from and how your propaganda must sound to them?

BTW, no ill intent here. I just would like to know *once and for all*, how you attain all the supposedly brilliant results to which you constantly lay claim.

At this point, there doesn't appear to be a practical basis for believing your claims.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 05:10 PM ET (US)     9 / 18       
Dave:
I understand perfectly, and it feels absolutely awful fom my end. I know my strats work, but I can't go online to prove it. You can imagine how that feels, but I hope for your sake that you'll never experience it yourself.
 
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I do not spew forth magic numbers. The stats I quote are from mrfixit's data sheets, a well-known and trusted source of stats, and I do the math. Math and logic is the closest I can come to proving my strats, so I keep trying. Hopefully this project will be stabilized enough so I can play online again, before I lose what remains of my sanity.
 
Hmm, too bad AoE doesn't have recorded games, or I could sneak a little time in single-player to record some proof next time my parents are out.
 
If you want to try and duplicate my results, I'll keep trying to help you. I won't ever give up, because I know my strats are good. Or, from your point of view, I'm a real fanatic... this is so awful, it really is. It's like trying to convince the ancient romans that the earth is round and mars is just a piece of rock, you know it's true but can't prove it, they don't believe you and the worst part is it's logical of them not to.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 05:21 PM ET (US)     10 / 18       
wedsaz:

C'mon - your comparison of this exchange to that of trying to convince the ancient romans that the earth is not flat is rather pompous and arrogant.

Here is how it really is:

wedsaz: Everybody, RoR players, ..., I can bronze in 11 minutes with persian no problem and all of these strats work great and I win all of my games against legendary players, yada yada ...

Us: Really? Wow! That sounds great! So how do you do it?

wedsaz: Like this, blah blah blah, ..., +0.33 hunting, pit start, 12 vils, etc ...

Us: Hmmm. Tried everything that you suggested. Conclusion is that it doesn't work. Can you show us how it is done in the real world?

wedsaz: Er, ..., can't cause I don't have a machine. But trust me - all of this works like a charm. At least it did 2 years ago ...

Us: Oh, brother ...

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-31-00 05:27 PM ET (US)     11 / 18       
Dave:
I also can't manage wedsaz' scores but I blame myself for that. I firmly believe that if I could concentrate better and make sure all my villas and FBs are busy I could do that fast brz trick with Minoa - and with Persia I got good results once BUT I'm a very poor player - say not quite hardcore newbie.
You may need a bit of luck there too.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 05:34 PM ET (US)     12 / 18       
Dave:
LoL, yes I suppose it's pretty humorous from your side.
 
I know you were exagerating, but I never said my strats didn't have problems. In fact, they're full of problems, but by walking the fine line between inefficiency and starving for resources is how you can achieve these seemingly impossible things. I also never said I won *ALL* of my games against legendary players. Most were against inters and rookies which are the majority of the zone, I'm not a snob. The reason I mention legendary players is that some people keep saying my strats wouldn't work against good players, when I know they did.
 
Maybe there's things I did that made it work, that aren't obvious to most people. Maybe some stats were changed by the new patch, changing the balance. Maybe I've been dreaming for 2 years, about playing AoE regularly on the zone and winning most of the time with these strats ( Hmm, maybe I should go back to bed - it was fun ). I don't know what's wrong, but if I got one set of results and you got another, something definitely doesn't fit. I'm willing to keep trying, so I'm either right or crazy - but not intentionally lying. Yup yup, crazy I must be crazy, but I'll keep trying anyway just in case.

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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 05:46 PM ET (US)     13 / 18       
Dave:
On the other hand, RageOMatic must be crazy too if he claims to have had good results with persia, which everyone knows has a poor economy and military.
 
Oh, and minoan is a slow civ too, look here: http://www.gamersx.com/aoe/advanced3.asp - oh, and notice phoenie isn't even mentioned as a good bronze civ. Those were the common beliefs when I created the minoan fastboom strat (and the dock block, a standard berry-start minoan boat boom, found the phoenie wood bonus...), and how would RoR be without boat booming?
 
All I can say is this. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'm crazy, but it sure seems logical to me.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 05:51 PM ET (US)     14 / 18       
peter:

Good, consist results are not attained with luck.

When I was a newbie there were many raging debates between wedsaz and the experts of this forum. I never contested wedsaz' claims cause I just didn't have any basis to do so. Now I consider myself a fair intermediate (I can bronze at 13 minutes and I'm targeting 12:30 and trying to improve).

Now I'm not saying that now I can contest his claims with absolute certainty. But from my zone experience, what I've read, my tests and research and what other real expert players have been telling me and saying on this forum ... I have to say that I do have my doubts.

So all I asked of wedsaz is to back up his claims. But instead of backing them up, he always backs away with the excuse that he doesn't have time or the machine.

It is easy to make ambitious claims but I think that if one promotes himself as such an authority and expert with feats that surpass those of known and established zone experts then he is going to have to expect some perfectly valid and appropriate questions. This is only normal, you understand of course?

I'm willing to believe wedsaz - in fact, I'm giving him all the chances to convince me. But he is asking that we blindly accept everything he says without question.

I hope (for you) that your response is not an indication that you accept whatever passes before your ears and eyes as a universal truth.


wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 06:35 PM ET (US)     15 / 18       
Dave:
I can't show you, for the very reasons mentioned above. In fact, I probably wouldn't even have been in this forum if I could play, I'd be on the zone quietly testing out my strats myself.
 
I expect questions. I *want* questions. I'll answer questions about the fastboom till I fall over from lack of sleep, if I have to. I'll do everything I can to help people understand my strats, which sadly doesn't include demonstrations for a while yet.
 
I don't expect anyone to follow me blindly. I'm quite happy that you question everything I say, since answers require questions and I'm not trying to make an army of zombies. I'm trying to create a new wave of thinkers to revive the zone. ( That, my friends, is my plan for world domination. MUHAHAHAHA!!!)
 
You can't make new strats if you believe that the current way is the only way. You do see the logic in that right?
 
Now, I realize it's unlikely you'll get my strats right the first time around. They're unstable and difficult, with a serious pile of little efficiency problems. Many things in there require you to think differently, which is not easy for anyone. I probably expect too much, it did take me months of regular zone play to get the skills for each of these strats. I still think they're worth it, and I'll be here to answer any questions you may have. How many villies you should make in stone, how many times a day they should brush their teeth, whatever.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 06:53 PM ET (US)     16 / 18       
wedsaz, could you please cut out the "think differently" crap? I don't know for sure about the rest, but definately no one is having problems here. I haven't seen one arguement that was based on something outside of your strat itself, as in goals or expected stats, because no one is that narrow minded.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 06:56 PM ET (US)     17 / 18       
wedsaz:

Part of the problem in this lil forum community is this:

In the past week alone I have played several games with Popov, Vlad, Leper, Man of War, Honored Mule, among dozens of other players on the Zone. We play the game. We would love for you to play the game so you could help us poor players out. I win over 90% of my games these days and I think I know what strats work and what don't. I just would love to have you on the Zone so we could play every night and work out these strats.

I learn new ideas and strategies every day and am constantly trying to improve my game. I just think people are stupid to listen to you if you can't show them your strats. I have all kinds of strats that win games today on the Zone, and I just think you are out of touch with the game these days.

Terry
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 01:29 PM ET (US)     18 / 18       
Is there a sequence that you all use in building? I've been performing tasks whenever needed. Would like to hear of your sequences.
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