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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Civilisation Bonuses
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Topic Subject:Civilisation Bonuses
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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 07:24 AM ET (US)         
Some civilisation bonuses are amazing, like Shang -30% villager costs, but some are hopeless, like Hittite +4 war ship range when their best ship is War Galley.

Please tell me what you think are useful bonuses, useless bonuses and bonuses you would like to see (like I want to see a way better Minoan land bonus, Minoans are the worst civ on land!)

AuthorReplies:
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 05:31 PM ET (US)     51 / 67       
wedsaz, I'm aware that I'm too slow, and it's almost solely because I'm not quick enough, and I can't handle the big econs well enough, but trust me, big beats little no matter how you weigh it. Little is easy to wipe out, big extremely hard unless you did a well-planned toolrush that cuts off all escape routes. little is on par with little, but only until one little become big, then it leaves little in the dust. boomers only get a few seconds behind little econs, and it takes at least a medium econ for a toolrush, and boomers keep growing when little econs stop and fight, but boomers are ready to fight back anyway, and retalliate, when you're power generated from that little slightly earlier econ is spent. Little econs don't stand a chance.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 06:13 PM ET (US)     52 / 67       
HonoredMule:
It depends how much faster that small econ is, and how fast they can do damage. Cavs and a scout can kill off villies very quickly and efficiently, for example, while being rather cheap. Cheap, unupgraded slingers trained from the one barrack you had to build anyway can work on the TC, houses and other buildings once the town has been cleared. The cavs and slingers could make a quick strike to take out the docks, disabling the fishing operation entirely.
 
Why am I so sure of this? Because otherwise the best strat would be to keep making villies and FBs until you reach the 200 pop limit, and only then advance to tool age. If current heavy booms can beat that due to being faster, then why couldn't an even faster strat beat those?

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 06:37 PM ET (US)     53 / 67       
that's just it...the small econ is only a little faster for a short while. Then, before there's time for anything to happen, the faster growing econ pulls ahead and stays there, save for a slightly longer tool time, but ready to bronze right away and with a reasonable army.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 06:53 PM ET (US)     54 / 67       
HonoredMule:
That's what makes me think a much faster bronze is required, so the dominant timeframe is long enough to do some serious damage. 11-12 mins bronze sounds about right, which means 5-6 mins before the boomer can make CAs. That's an awful long time when you've got cavs chasing your villies, even just a few.
 
There's 3 civs I know of that can bronze in 11-12 mins without committing to the sea in a major way:
1. Shang, master of flexibility. They're the most stable of the 3, but also the least optimal at anything.
2. Persian, speed demon. They're the fastest due to their awesome hunting bonus, but they have a poor late-bronze econ. On the other hand, if by then you aren't on top after a fast bronze, you'd be screwed anyway vs boomers.
3. Palmy, acceleration nation. They'll reach bronze with the bigger econ of the three, but they're a bit harder to start up. If you get a decent spot and don't mess up, you can make a lot of troops in early bronze.
 
By not investing much in the sea until you wipe out most of their woodies, you can go without warboats and keep your econ for the land offensive. If you lose a few boats, so be it, you can move some villies back to berries and get revenge.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 07:19 PM ET (US)     55 / 67       
you're not listening...unless you've got a strat to consistently bronze in 10 mins, it's not enough to beat a 14 bronze massive econ...a large tool econ will catch up before a small bronze army can do enough damage even.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 07:21 PM ET (US)     56 / 67       
BTW an expert boomer will still bronze in 13.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 07:23 PM ET (US)     57 / 67       
by the time the boomer stops producing villies to tool, he's prolly got all the res he needs before he's halfway through the tool u/g, and growing and SPREADING fast...it's hard to kill off a spread out econ in such a small time window.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
RageOMatic
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 07:50 PM ET (US)     58 / 67       
The thing that I think is the fate of boomers is just rushing with the wrong weapons. Most boomers wont bronze in 13 minutes. Even the "good players" or "experts" on the zone rarely get below around 14 minutes booming econ. The trick is to get near them, and make cavalry. A few chariot archers which seem to be the most common bronze weapon, are weak unless massed. You also need the wheel which just adds time. Plus they take up wood, which is needed for me to carry out the rest of my typical bronze rush. You hit with cavalry, and bring on the heavy artillery asap. S/T's to take out their houses quickly, crush tons of villagers, and hoppers to protect the S/T and help tear down buildings quick.

I've decimated players numerous times with this. Their whole town is gone by at least 20 minutes, and since I'm pumping mostly S/T and hoppers by now, I got plenty of food to villager boom.

Macedonian is by far the best civilization for killing most zone players today. Zone players aren't very innovative anymore and seem to just make tons of chariots.

HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 08:51 PM ET (US)     59 / 67       
that sounds interresting...not sure I could pull it off against Blitz and the others I've been playing with...trying to get into the expert group. (despite a certain major setback)

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 08:59 PM ET (US)     60 / 67       
wedsaz:

A bigger econ over speed is what I will take every time. I constantly experiment on the Zone with putting woodies onto a second food source (talking about Medit/Conti maps), or stopping real villas at 20-22 and fishing boats at 10 and getting to Bronze faster.

I initially thought I would get to Bronze and then boom from more docks and more TC's. But I haven't been able to find the balance of gained time to resources to win the sea, rush to Bronze, and then have the resources to boom. It seems like in these situations I'm having to "sacrifice" precious resources to grow my economy and my military isn't over-powering. I don't like playing styles that require me to beat an opponent fast or lose.

So instead I have worked getting faster boom times with higher fishing boats to real villas also to have more food and quicker times.

I have found a ratio/system that gives me 1000+ food and wood entering the Tool Age around the 12:00 mark. My pop is between 40-45. I can always make 6-8 Scout Ships, make 3-4 real villas, build a market and a stable, train a Scout and some Slingers, research Stable Armor and Woodcutting, and not effect my Bronze time in a way that compromises my chances of winning.

I also find that my forward builders have enough resources to start throwing down Archery Ranges, docks and houses all during the Bronze upgrade, and upon Bronzing I can mass a HUGE army.

I play a lot on the Zone at work and Sumerian_Leper watches me play a lot. He comments how fast I grow upon Bronzing. I can have a Gov Center up, TC's up all over the map, be build a big army and continue to boom from all buildings non stop. Booming early allows me to do this. My average population upon Ironing is always over 160-170. He has a different style of playing and always says he doesn't have the resources to do all of the things I am able to do.

Also playing 1.5 on the Zone (which is the standard) plays into the boomer's favor more than a rusher. Rushing a good boomer is stressfull because seconds count. Every second that you are in Bronze and you aren't attacking a good booming opponent means that your defeat is closer and closer.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 09:31 PM ET (US)     61 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
I agree, and it's ironic that I used to be fighting for the boom as opposed to speed. They used to say that if you weren't the first to attack, you'd have no villies left for anything... those are probably the same people now saying the boom is invincible. Funny isn't it?
 
I think the wall you've been hitting is trying to balance taking the sea with rushing to bronze. Taking the sea eats up a *lot* of resources, and that's what I'm thinking may have to be avoided in order to win with a fast bronze. If it's possible to still have a decent econ with mostly land villies and few FBs, saving villie time to make a land army and beat the sea from the land, I think that could solve the boom and we can then move on. There *must* be a way to beat the boom.
 
My fastboom strat was a balance between bronze time and food. Wood wasn't a bit issue since I didn't have to make warboats at the time, and I used compies not CAs so I needed mostly food. A simple dock-block or wall gave me enough time to train compies only when needed, so in the meantime I could use my food to grow my villie population. Oh well, nothing lasts forever... too many dang warboats now. Maybe I can convert those fishermen to hunters and berry pickers.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 10:02 PM ET (US)     62 / 67       
most water maps can't be won without at least some lasting presence on the water.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 10:40 PM ET (US)     63 / 67       
HonoredMule:
Dunno, I did pretty good on medit with a mace+bab combo, no boats whatsoever until mid-bronze.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 11-03-00 00:13 AM ET (US)     64 / 67       
I guess we won't be able to settle this debate until wedsaz can get on the zone and play. So that means when he finishes his "project" or RoR gets released on linux or Java, which ever happens first. So I have taken the liberty of reserving room #11 in Esquiline for March 15, 2005 ...
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-03-00 02:43 AM ET (US)     65 / 67       
Dave:
LoL, hopefully this project will get going long before then. I'll play AoE on the zone again within a year, even if I have to break into somebody's apartment and steal their computer to do it!!!
 
In the meantime, I'd be happy to try and explain anything you don't understand. Want to hear the story of why I came up with the minoan fastboom strat?

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Dave
Clubman
posted 11-03-00 01:17 PM ET (US)     66 / 67       
No
CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 11-03-00 02:56 PM ET (US)     67 / 67       
Please let's stay on topic OK?
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