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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » tech and units
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Topic Subject:tech and units
Dark_Avenger
Clubman
posted 10-26-00 09:44 AM ET (US)         
There's so many months(around 1 years and half, I don't remember exactly) I play RoR and found some things obsolete like "Martyrdom" and some units.
But I admit, some of them(units) are useful when you have all the good tech for it. I talked about chamels and slinger, also I don't use alot of archers for some reasons below. Scythe is funny and it's among the ones I like to use.

I'm always enjoy,(when I'm playing Random civ), to have a civ with war eles but the game goes on and finish and I don't use war eles or use a couple of it.

Sadly all the ages(AoE,RoR,AoK,TC) lead the players(me too) to use a "quick reaction force", I mean cavalry. We all know the reasons why:enemy cav, chariot archers and horses archer, siege weapons.........

Are you a infantry player?, War eles and/or Eles archers player?, cavalry player? archer player??

Did you found some obsolete tech and units in this game(AOE/ROR)????

See you later!

AuthorReplies:
darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-26-00 10:50 AM ET (US)     1 / 20       
Preists. I have NEVER seen ANYONE use preists in AoE or RoR on the zone. One stone can kill so many of those guys, its definitly not geriatrics at its best. Other then that, I don't see many compie strats anymore, maybe a handful in the past 6 months. Boat booms seem to be popular on the zone latly(finnally). Seems the days of massing big ass groups of Hittie Cats are over(again, finnally). Other then that I see pretty much every unit, except EA's. I don't seem them very much, tho we should. Thier 600 hps are hard to beat. They've got to be my favorite unit, tho I confess I don't use em much either.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 10-26-00 07:14 PM ET (US)     2 / 20       
Elles are good in organized wars, but that's not the kind that happens online.

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 10-26-00 08:03 PM ET (US)     3 / 20       
I have used a few "obsolete" units in RoR lately out of boredom. The funniest last week was me picking Choson in a 2v1 Medit. My opponents were Minoan and Egyptian. I made 4 barracks in each direction and started sending Swordies non-stop. I never ever use Swordies. Then I towered ..which I never do... then I did the unthinkable...I USED PRIESTS! I had a lot of fun using Priests too. I had Slingered the Minoan to death in Tool, and my Swordies were tearing up all of the Egyptian's houses. He had villas running and building houses so he could build an army... and I had a swarm of Priests converting all of his houses as fast as he could build them. It was a good laugh.
MAN_OF_WAR_1
Clubman
posted 10-26-00 09:26 PM ET (US)     4 / 20       
wellno i dont think mass cats have gone away...if you play medit...compie attacks and hittite cats will be on the battle fields.... unless you have a very wierd player who on every map picks EGY!(HEHE).... i think martydom was made ass a anti-cat tech. and if your egy...scyths and priests that instantly covert when deleted is good force vs mass cats... and that egy gold bonus pays for it all.

i myself am a calvery man. chariots camels and CA! unless i go minoan. then i try out archers and broadies.

if you ask me the most obsolete unit in RoR in iron is....ummmm....centurian. they are slow expensive and cats/archers cut them down easy. all i can find a use for them is building destroyers. and st's are better at that.

darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-26-00 10:22 PM ET (US)     5 / 20       
Cents have to be the longest unit to get too. You have the same reasearch as say a bowman to a compie, but the phlanx and cent upgrades are so friggin expensive. Only in long Iron games do I use them, And acually with ALLLL the upgrades you can get for em, there almost impossible to stop in hordes. They work good on eles too. And your right ST's are easier to make and are better building destroyers. Oh and wedsaz, I won as Greek once too. With a hopper rush. Worked pretty good too. Never do it against mino but If I was playing your Choson Mano, I might. cause choson and greek both have dreadful bronze times.

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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-27-00 02:12 AM ET (US)     6 / 20       
Useless techs and units? Umm...
1. Farming sux, so why bother getting the farm upgrades? Anyway they don't help very much, you'd need a huge farming operation for the upgrades to be worthwhile. Solution: Add +0.05f/sec farming rate with each farm upgrade as a "signing bonus". While not enough to make farming as good as other food sources until all bronze age market techs are researched, by which time other land food is usually gone, it would still help and the farm upgrades would be a must for any farming operation.
2. Cataphracts, one of the most expensive upgrades, and one of the most useless. They were already bad in AoE, so naturally scythes were added to do everything better! Solution: Give them higher armor and shielding like historical cataphracts, 7/3 sounds about good.
3. Heavy Cavalry? LOL! Read above and add camels to chew them up. Solution: Give cavs more usefulness so they're worth using even after camels are out, maybe by giving them an anti-archer bonus. Hmm, or move the hcav upgrade to bronze and fix two problems at once.
4. Jihad makes your villies work less effectively. Siegecraft is a must, but I find jihad just isn't worth its downside, since with an unreduced econ you could simply produce more military and villies. In DM, where they are used more as field engineers, I guess it might have some use. Solution: Change the work reduction to half what it is now, and it probably becomes worthwhile.
5. Impies are rarely trained except to turn into compies before the compie upgrade is done. They aren't as good as compies, and cost gold unlike bowmen. Solution: Make them an upgrade of tool bowmen, with the same food/wood cost. The impie upgrade would still be required for compies, but impies wouldn't make the change.
6. Short Swordsmen are useless the moment they're faced with virtually any bronze units. Solution: Make them available immediately in bronze, like cavs and camels. They'd be far from bad vs tool units, cheap and fast to produce so you can make many quantities of them, so not a bad early-bronze rush overall. Improve broad swordsmen and suddenly they have a future.
7. Broad Swordsmen with all the upgrades can defeat compies 20 vs 20 (on flat, open ground with no obstacles) but barely, and require so many upgrades that it's not really worth it. Like all infantry units, they're highly vulnerable to anything with range. Solution: Insta-bronze short swordsmen (see above) would cut upgrade time by half. Add a wooden shield upgrade in tool, and archers might even need walls or cannon fodder to slow the infantry down a bit. More than +1 shielding would make infantry unstoppable though, so don't go overboard ok?
8. Tower Shield is very helpful to infantry, but unfortunately also too late to help bronze infantry and anyway it's pretty expensive. Solution: Wooden Shield, a tool age shield upgrade, which would complete the tool age pit techs set ( collect them all! ) making it similar to later ages. The new impies should be moved to tool to keep that age's archer/infantry balance. Might want to give watch towers and sentry towers +1 dam each, too.
9. The centurion upgrade is expensive, and phalanxes do a fine job especially if you use those resources you didn't spend on upgrading. Solution: Lowering the upgrade cost would be a possibility, but maybe someone has a better idea.
10. Wow, nearly forgot the watch towers and sentry towers. Towers are relatively cheap for iron age economies, but they are far too expensive (except the roman ones) to be massed earlier. They are used offensively in tool but don't help much for defense. Any attempt at improving towers are instantly flamed by ballista tower haters, who claim (and I agree) that ballista towers are already a pain in the axe. Solution: First, split ballista towers from the rest (loud cheer heard in the distance). Next, triple the RoF of the ordinary towers. Then, double ballista tower damage (up to 40), *but* give them a minimum range of 5 (!) and don't give them the benefits of ballistics.
 
Well, that's the top ten I guess.

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peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-27-00 05:32 AM ET (US)     7 / 20       
wedsaz:
Jihad is good if you plan win by keeping a wonder. after that's built and you built enough walls and towers, Jihad is just fine for villagers with jihad are good cat killers - read the article on the wonders strat.
Also this thread was about obsolete units and techs, not about rebalancing to bring them back.

[This message has been edited by peter (edited 10-27-2000).]

RageOMatic
Clubman
posted 10-27-00 07:22 PM ET (US)     8 / 20       
Priests are not useless. Every unit in AOE has another unit that takes advantage of it's weakness. For instance, camels are pretty good at taking down catapults, however against say 10 compies with armor upgrades they are as good as dead. Likewise, mass helepolis totally chew up scythe (as well as any other unit. But a few hcats can totally demolish them. Priests are the solution for academy units which are relatively slow but powerful, and elephants which are also slow and powerful. Without them, elephants would be almost unstoppable.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-27-00 11:43 PM ET (US)     9 / 20       
RageOMatic:
Although helepolii chew up equal numbers of scythes, it doesn't always work out that way. Scythes cost about twice as much total res as helos, and while almost half of a helo's cost is gold, scythes cost only food and wood. What that means is that scythes end up outnumbering helos 2 to 1 (if not 3 to 1), and the helo user can be beaten by sheer attrition. As if that wasn't enough, scythes can damage multiple helos at simultaneously once they get among them. Phalanxes do ok vs scythes because of their massive armor, but are too slow to catch them and die to ranged units. imho, scythes are a serious balance problem in iron.
 
War eles die to helos, horse archers, compies and phalanxes. Academy units die to pretty much anything with range, especially helos. Oh and trust me, when 50-60 cents are coming at you, priests can't convert nearly fast enough to save your town, since you have to control them individually and they take so long to regen. Sure you can build a wall, but you'd get more effect with archers behind it than priests.
 
The best use I've had for priests, strangely enough, was vs powerful siege weapons. The problem here is that you *must* have martyrdom, and preferably also afterlife and polytheism. With 3-4 temples producing such priests, I held back a horde of hittite hcats for at least 30 mins. We tried using scythes, but they were on the other side of a pass so we couldn't surround them. We eventually took control of the pass using juggernauts (they are *not* useless) and a few triremes, and our scythes got through to wipe the map clean. Martyrdom, imho, is the most useful priest tech.
 
MAN_OF_WAR_1
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 00:19 AM ET (US)     10 / 20       
priests are not useless....scyths are good but unless you have the economy to make the mass scyth needed vs cats they aint much help.. helos i hate them! its probably the cheapest most unfair unit! same with cats....masses of them! scyths can barely even get to them the only way to take down helo or cats is mass scyths and they get beat down still.

eles are pretty sucky now days.... they get cut down by almost everything.... centurians are prolly the single most sucky unit i know off....the cata is right up there with him but the cata is faster and has infantry bonus....

what was that about me going chosen? im not a infantry guy...i hate infantry... maybe a braody here and there in suport of compies but not mass roman soldiers.... in AOK im more into infantry though....they are faster stronger and are cheaper.

and wedsaz...farming in RoR is very usefull... you dont allways have controll of the water... or your on a land map.... put up 15 farms and your set

Chris_Hani
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 00:27 AM ET (US)     11 / 20       
I'm an infantry/archer player. I usually play Minoan on water maps, and any civ with Centurions and chariots/compies on other maps. I just pump out like 50 or 60 cents (on a 200 pop map) and about 30 compies/chariots and I'm set. It doesn't take much. I just send in the cents and back 'em up with Archers. Although I've found camels to be obsolete for my use, and the slinger is almost completely useless come Bronze Age. This is a little off-topic but I think ES should make a patch allowing Throwing Axemen to be upgraded to Short Swordsmen, that would be very helpful, IMHO.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 04:30 AM ET (US)     12 / 20       
man_of_war_1:
Unless you have the economy to mass scythes? What are you talking about, those guys are cheaper than even CAs!
 
War eles do get cut down by almost anything, but they usually do a good job vs the cat line, even against hittite hcats. Ele archers demolish massed helos in equal numbers, so you might want to check them out if you hate helos as much as I do.
 
Centurions vs Cataphracts - Yes, cataphracts do get a bonus vs barrack units, but it only brings their attack power to roughly *half* what cents get. Cents have 8 armor, cataphracts have 3. Cents have 3 shield upgrades, cataphracts have 1 shielding. Cataphracts do have about 25% more hps and run faster, but armor and shielding have more effect vs most things. Scythes do a better raiding and anti-siege job, and cost less. Cents also cost less than CaTFish despite having more power, and they still run fast enough to catch infantry and siege weapons easily. The only thing I find cataphracts worthwhile for is with scythe-less civs (assy, choson, mace, persian, yammy), to beat on siege weapons so the cents can come out of hiding. Oh and they do look cool, although that doesn't get you very far.
 
In my experience with RoR, if you don't have control of the water on a wet map, you're probably screwed. The only exception I have seen to this is a mace+bab combo, and that is one hard combo to beat. From what I've seen of hillz play, people don't farm there either until all other food sources are gone. It's a mathematically proveable fact: farms sucks. Even if the farming rate was as fast as that of berries, there's still the wood cost.
 
Chris_Hani:
Try reversing your cent/compie ratio. It'll probably work better, and even if it only gave the same results, it would still cost less.
 
There's no Throwing Axemen in AoE, you must have it confused with some other game. If you were talking about axemen, remember that swordsmen cost gold while axemen don't. That would cause an imbalance if swordsmen were much good in bronze (which they're not). I think I mentioned wooden shield and being able to train short swordsmen as soon as you're bronze already, right? imho that would fix the swordsman problem nicely without causing major balance problems, except having to improve tool bowmen by giving them the impie upgrade in tool. Tool bowmen aren't much good in bronze and impies cost gold, by merging them you get a very viable tool unit capable of (probably easily) stopping camel rushes, and providing decent archery support in mixed bronze armies. If you haven't checked out the petition at HonoredMule's site, I suggest you do.

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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 07:19 AM ET (US)     13 / 20       
Oh, priests are useful and annoying. In a massive deathmatch of cats and eles, all you do is sneak a priest behind your army and you can just convert a few units. Yes, in 1 v 1 priests are pretty pathetic but with eles or cats they're AMAZING. Martyrdom only useful if the unit cost more than 125 gold. Don't forget you're throwing away gold sacrificing priests. To be honest, Slingers are useless. Villagers beat Slingers 1 v 1! Jihad is useless if you've researched Stone and Gold Mining and all Market researches that improve capacity. I never research Jihad. Cataphracts are AMAZING. I think the only bad Iron Age Unit is the Helepolis. At 55 HP, it's not hard-wearing enough.
MAN_OF_WAR_1
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 11:29 AM ET (US)     14 / 20       
my piont on the scyth is....in order to get a scyth you have to upgrade from chariot...which cost more then the upgrade from st to cat. scyths do cost alot of wood and food.and a little efective vs anything else but siege and raids.. hell a broady will prolly take 1 down. there for you have to make masses of them to even make them effective vs anything...even cats... and when you think of the resources it takes to make those you will need a pretty good intake. when it takes 3 to 1 for a scyth to win...thats not very good...thats more wood then a cat costs and a good amount of food... and youll prolly loose 1 1/2 while attacking the cat. then he'll just bring another and kill them off. the only use for scyth is war of attrition or DMs either that or you have a sucky civ (pheo) that only has eles that get converted and scyths. in DM.

and farming is used on hillz...i play on hills and as soon as the second berry goes away and i see no ele near town i farm... 25 on farms 20 on wood 12 on gold in bronze and you got a nice income of all res... and yes its also used on medit... minoans have a farming bonus so not only are they good at water but on land... iz seen plays that have the sea and yet have about 20 farms up. they get alot of food income doing that . and if you dont control the sea on medit...your not always screwed...if you have enough wood you can start up farming and pop out a few compies.

centurian: the main purpose of martyrdom was so priests could convert a cat in the masses of cats...then theyd fire at the converted cat and take down 10 of there own beside him. and if your converting ele dont delete no need to...centurians can also be converted easy.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 09:52 PM ET (US)     15 / 20       
CenturionZ_1:
1. "Martyrdom only useful if the unit cost more than 125 gold." - Remember that when using martyrdom, not only do you stop your enemy from using the unit you convert but you can use it instead. That means if the unit costs more than 62.5 gold (or more than 48.5 with choson), it's worthwhile. HHA lovers beware!
2. "Villagers beat slingers 1 v 1!" - LoL, any serious test of military capacity will try 10v10 for tool, 20v20 for bronze. Sure a single villie can kill a single slinger, but if you've never seen more than 5 military units at once then you obviously haven't played on the zone. Range and firepower become far more important as numbers increase.
3. "Cataphracts are AMAZING." - LoL, I think you'll have to explain that better, because from what I've seen, cataphracts aren't worth squat to any civ that can use scythes instead.
4. "I think the only bad Iron Age Unit is the Helepolis. At 55 HP, it's not hard-wearing enough." - Again you underestimate the power of massed ranged units. Low hps simply don't matter when nothing can get close enough to attack you, and at 40 damage per shot massed helepolii are awfully hard to kill.
 
MAN_OF_WAR_1:
1. If I remember right, the scythe upgrade costs 1200w 800g. The scythe upgrade costs less than 10 cats, and you can then make nearly 3 scythes for the cost of a cat.
2. LoL, it doesn't take a 3v1 ratio for scythes to kill cats, even heavy cats. I was talking about helos, which can actually hit scythes before they start attacking. It's more like 1v1, and a scythe costs 40f 60w to a cat's 180w 80g, or a third as much wood and a bit of food but no gold.
3. A single scythe with all upgrades can kill a single long swordsman (nevermind broadie). Did you know scythes are ranged units? They have +1 range. It may not seem like much, but combined with trample damage they get a huge advantage out of being massed, and their cost (cheaper than CAs) makes them easy to mass. I've seen massed scythes (20+) take down legions.
4. Sure, I've seen people farm on wet maps. I've seen those same people lose to bigger, faster economies who didn't farm. I just hadn't realized how low the skill levels on the zone dropped since AoK came out.
5. Farms are the single slowest food source around. Counting the wood you have to chop, and the all bronze market upgrades, you get 0.35f/sec. Compare with the 0.45f/sec you get from berries. For the price of 2 farms you can get 3 FBs, and can put your 2 farmers on wood or gold instead. In the good old days when speed mattered, none of the experts - *not one* - farmed as long as there was any other food source, because they quickly discovered it was by far the slowest food source.
6. I used to farm on wet maps sometimes, but only in iron when there was little fish left for my FBs, so that more FBs wouldn't help, and there was no land food left in relatively safe areas (as in anywhere except the enemy base). However, it was a last resort not a top choice. Farms suck up your wood supply like little else, the only comparisons I have for that wood drain is boat wars (a fair reason for avoiding the sea in favor of farming) and using dual siege vs hittite hcats (downright suicidal - use scythes, cavs, camels or even scouts instead).
 
7. Quite right about martyrdom being most useful vs massed cats. It's also good vs academy+cats and eles+cats combos.

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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 07:58 AM ET (US)     16 / 20       
1. Wedsaz, I know helepoli are very good in numbers. But if you can separate them (ie get close with a fast moving unit) and cut them down. There min range is 3 and that is quite high (cats have 2) so all you need are enough units or a few scythe with adjacent damage and there done for.

2. Cats in AoE were harder to kill as they have damage area (helepoli don't) but now as ballistics in RoR has been modified for cats, it's very easy to dodge them with fast units. (I love annoying a group of cats with a h. horse archer).

3. Cataphracts are good, because at 80f and 70g there about the same price as a helepoli and they are the only fast unit that can take a hefty beating. (Scythes, camel and h. archers are to easy to take down. Cataphracts have over 200 Hp with nobility and that's a lot.

4. Anyway, one good research has got to be the ballista tower. The guard tower is good but at 6(+1) attack it isn't that powerful. With the ballista tower you get 20(+1) attack and in numbers that is pretty damaging.

5. Fortification is getting used less. Walls are good at stopping rushes but by the Iron Age they become useless because cats just send stones over them. And if they outrange your army, the walls are hindering YOU.

6. Finally Martyrdom is great against cheaters! Convert a bigdaddy or two and destroy them (don't forget to get ss of him using cheats)

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-29-00 11:28 AM ET (US)     17 / 20       
CenturionZ_1:
You don't need the sacrifice your priest to convert those z-cars, they're readily convertible.
Chris Aurel
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 02:55 PM ET (US)     18 / 20       
My favorite unit is the centurion ,especially
when I play with the Greek .The second is the Hittie
Heavy Horse Archer .
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 05:05 PM ET (US)     19 / 20       
My favorite unit is the most important and powerful one, the villager, followed of course by the fishing boat. After that? Compies and camels.

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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 11-04-00 05:40 AM ET (US)     20 / 20       
Hmmm... I think the technology, 'logistics' could be expanded to all foot units. Unless it's legion wars, it isn't that useful
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