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Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » What Do We Know About the AI? (1st Punic War)
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Topic Subject:What Do We Know About the AI? (1st Punic War)
SaSa408
Clubman
posted 10-10-00 07:18 PM ET (US)         
This may seem elementary to some of you. Anyway, I will ask.

(1) If in a campaign you build and build resources without going to the next "age," is the computer far ahead of you in going to the ages?

(2) What is it that triggers an attack from the AI? (Sometimes in a scenario they almost leave me alone, then at other times, it looks like when I fish or send someone down to an area to gather resources, here comes their scout firing.)

(3) What is this business of setting them to ally or neutral in a campaign? And paying tribute? Can you pay them off and then go and grab the artifact?

(4) I have put 2 ST's on my coast. Their scouts can get them both in no time. Yet, if I send a few scouts over to the enemy with HC, they do me in. Is it a matter of pulling the ST back from getting too close to the scout - and conversely, a matter of my scout getting up closer to the HC to destroy it? The computer seems to have both of those skills. But I don't.

Books don't tell me these things.

Sara

Sara

AuthorReplies:
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-10-00 08:19 PM ET (US)     1 / 9       
1. If you build and build without advancing, does the computer get way ahead of you? Depends on which AI, but generally I would think so.
2. What triggers an attack? Again, it depends on which AI.
3. What is this ally/neutral/tribute business? Again, it depends on the scenario.
4. You should be able to defeat HCats with a scout, given some skill at it. I would recommend only sending one scout at a time, and *don't attack with it*! Concentrate on going behind each HCat, like it's some kind of race, and keep doing "laps" until they've shot themselves to hillz. You might lose scouts the first few times, but when you get good at it you can do it without losses. Unsupported cats are sooo dumb.
Dark_Avenger
Clubman
posted 10-10-00 08:29 PM ET (US)     2 / 9       
It's my personnal opinion...

(1): yes (I think)

(2): when a villager or a boat is near and do the "tourist", prepare you to have visit.

(3): I don't think(I am sure) you can't have relic or artifact with tribute. It's hard to have and ally with AI

(4): dance is the way. a HC has a larger diameter of hiting than a ST. Anyway, it impossible doing war without lost.(if you fail at the first attack, try again until you win) A good way to win against some units is "fire power" I mean have a lot of war galley together(5 to 7) I do this on the "Battle of Mylae". Anyway, We do the same on land battle with tons of archers, CA, HA, etc.

good luck for the punic wars

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-11-00 02:46 AM ET (US)     3 / 9       
Sara:
What's the matter? You are looking at it the wrong way. Making it way too hard for yourself. (Now you hate me for saying this.) What did you do in the first scenario? You fought - can't have done anything else. So fight here too. It takes time and perhaps you need to get a bit faster with co-ordinated action.
1. Not quite sure what you mean there but in this scenario the red Romans start in the Bronze Age and the yellow in the Post Iron Age (that means all techs have been researched). So they are already ahead of you. If you don't upgrade, they stay ahead of you. In other scenarios they will get ahead of you if you don't do something about it. You can look at the game stats and see how long it takes the CP to advance to a new age. Also look at how fast you do it. If you're slower, think where you can improve. This is where RM starting in the stone age comes in - you start with equal resources, so you can see if you're too slow.
2. Some AIs are passive, others aggressive. At easiest, they are rather passive. But if you wait long enough, they'll come anyway. If you're not showing signs of life, they may stay away for a long time. See wedsaz' note. Also see Dark_Avenger's note. Innocent passing villagers and FBs eh? Forget it - they're spies.
3. They won't turn ally if you trib them 10,000 gold. And you can't bribe them into giving up the artifacts either. You have to fight for them.
4a. Getting at STs and (H)Cats is always a tricky business. Besides they have a priest as well, so spare yourself the agony - if your scout doesn't get killed it will probably get converted. Save your game BEFORE you try - then if it fails, you can go back to something good instead of being left with your ruins. STs don't aim well - especially against fast units like scouts. They have attack 50 - leaving 10 HPs after a hit. Cats have attack 60 - leaving zero. Researching nobility increases HPs for scouts and so on, so that might be a good thing to do. Reread my earlier hints. Before you land a transport ship at the yellow island, first send some galleys or triremes there and make sure the cats attack them. Right then land your transport. You need to be quick there. The cats fire every 5 secs (if you play at normal speed) so you have some time to move your units away. Do so. Why wait till your units get battered? Keep them moving. Have some attack the Cats if you have a mind for it. The others hunt for the artifact. The best units are villagers with wheel and Jihad so they're very fast. Send ten to twenty of them.
4b. You don't need STs on your island. Why build them? They're only good at getting down units standing still, buildings for instance. The CP is faster at moving scouts around than you and STs are so slow the scout can always overtake them. Have camels to fight the scout - see how fast it's killed then.

Finally: you need to think carefully what techs you need to research and what upgrades you need. You probably spend too many resource on research and units you don't really need. You need good ships - upgrade them - with long range - research the wood techs at the market. Armor, heavy cavs, armoured elephants and so on, you don't need them. Same for STs. Alchemy is a very good tech to research however. So you need a Government Centre. And for Jihad you need a Temple. You don't need other Bronze Age buildings though. Also if your ships are attacked, get more ships to fight the attacker. Then your ships don't lose so many HPs.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-11-00 06:14 AM ET (US)     4 / 9       
peter:
I tried not to reply, I really did, but I couldn't help myself... so...
 
There's a priest with the HCats? I didn't know (or remember, since I *did* play this entire campaign) that, not a big problem though - send a first scout to attack the priest, the cats will flatten the scout when he stops but also the priest. Your 2nd scout can then do the same as if there had been no priest.
 
My approach vs HCats would be to not attack at all, but make a turn behind each and moving on, like some sort of obstacle course or something. Sure they have 150hp, but at 60hp per stone that can go down fast.
 
If you're in iron, you can use war eles (with carth's +25% hps = a mighty 750hp) to take down the hcats once the priest is gone.
 
Although alchemy is useful for both ships and ele archers, a better reason to build a government center would be to build multiple TCs, which is usually a good idea. I don't see why Jihad would be important, I'd probably build a siege workshop for helos instead. Having priests around to reconvert and/or heal eles could make sense though.

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peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-11-00 06:38 AM ET (US)     5 / 9       
sara:
sorry, this gets involved.

wedsaz:
Seems you forgotten a few things about this game. Or perhaps it's getting too late?
1. You can flatten the priest with their own HCats, sure. But you don't need to - you don't need to invade the island at all. Serious. Did it twice - once at hard - got the artifact without landing.
2. You haven't used villagers with wheel + Jihad for a long time I guess. They make excellent cat killers (65 HPs + high speed + 10 attack; what do you need eles for???) You just think that because Carth can build helos you should do it. Hm, helos are nice if you're an expert, if not, use them only to parade them when your enemies are dead. They get even faster killed than STs. Spare me. Please Academy: no need for in this game. Just waste of wood and food + gold.
3. What the heck do you need multiple TCs for in a 50 pop game? You only research Jihad for your final attack - 10-20 vills will do for that and you won't have to replace them afterards. => waste of wood.
4. Alchemy is good for archers => attack the reds with them. Good for your ships too.

Try playing it again with these settings and have a lot of fun.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-11-00 06:06 PM ET (US)     6 / 9       
peter:
1. I sort of assumed the artifact was in the middle of the island. If you can get it without landing, I agree it's better.
2. Jihad seriously reduces your resource production capability, I tried it when I first got AoE and I agree with most experts on this, it's not worth it. Upgraded scouts make excellent cat killers (68 HPs + high speed + 10 attack) without reducing your production capabilities. Eles are downright tough, and are well-known cat killers which don't require fast reflexes at all... carth eles can take over a dozen cat stones before dying, that's pretty tough. I agree academy units aren't much use, but helos do awesome amounts of damage and are hard to take down when massed.
3. Multiple TCs are used for safety, as you can regrow your villie pop if you get screwed up - it's a good habit if nothing else. They can also act as both storage pits and granaries at the same time, and often it's faster to train new villies in enemy territory than bring new ones from home. I've played plenty of 50 pop games, AoE trial and for a long while even full AoE couldn't hange the pop, and strats aren't as different from higher pop as you seem to think. Experts in AoE trial (50 pop) would normally make 40 villies, and would use "overbuilding" to train anywhere between 20 and 60 troops for an attack wave. So in fact some had 100 pop when attacking... most made about 20-30 though, only exceeding the pop limit by a small margin.
4. Alchemy - good tech, I always get it, but not the main reason for building a govt center. This game is about economy, if you don't work at optimizing it you'll never become an inter not to mention an expert.
SaSa408
Clubman
posted 10-11-00 07:21 PM ET (US)     7 / 9       
Peter, just a quick question before the server closes down on us: You say that you can get the artifact without landing.

I have never seen an artifact so near the coast on the Yellow Island that I could just get my transport near enough to get it on board without landing.

Sara

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-12-00 04:06 AM ET (US)     8 / 9       
Sara:
You have to look for it and you need long ranged units for that - then just think very hard. Your units are probably not long-ranged enough. I don't want to give away any more - but it's all in the hints I have already give.

wedsaz:
My objection to what you wrote is exactly that it would work fine for an expert but Sara isn't an expert and it wouldn't help her at all. Her eles would probably be converted in one swoop - I know it's impossible, but the problems Sara gets into seem pretty impossible to me too - provided she really plays at easiest. Helos - !@#$% massed you say - How do you imagine Sara is going to manage 30 helos? That's enough for now.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-12-00 05:14 AM ET (US)     9 / 9       
peter:
The hcats are on an island with one priest. I think I already mentioned how sacrificing a scout to get him flattened would be fairly straightforward. An elle or two could probably dispatch the hcats easily after that, and elles are notorious for not requiring fast reflexes. Even I can use them.
 
Things being converted instantly by AI priests? Yup, happens to me all the time, and I hate it.
 
Managing 25 helos shouldn't be hard, you just select them all and do "ctrl-1", and press "1" to select them all at any time. As long as you keep them together, they can shoot the crap out of almost anything. (cats, ele archers and kamikazi scythe hordes aside)
 
Believe me, managing military units like I do is not hard, anybody can do it with a little practice. I have zero reflexes.

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