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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Beating Hittite Iron
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Topic Subject:Beating Hittite Iron
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Nineveh
Inactive
posted 12-17-98 07:21 AM ET (US)         
One word: How?

Is there any way on the damned planet to beat Hittite Iron? I have lost soooo many 3v3 cuz my Minoans, after smoking 2 out of 3 enemies, get blow away by a 60-villager Hittite who's been playing SimCity and now has
HHA
AE
EA
Hcats
Cents
Scythes..

And a kickin economy, AND bonuses!

I think ES dropped the ball on this one, but maybe there's a way to do it.
Anyone ever beaten a Hittite in iron of equal economy with any civ but Sumerian?


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

AuthorReplies:
Ender
Guest
posted 12-17-98 09:20 AM ET (US)     1 / 92       
Egyptian can beat em with scythe chariots and priests, not always easy to do but they can do it. Choson legions/priests can beat their army, though killing the villagers before running out of gold can be a problem.


dashingdave
Inactive
posted 12-17-98 09:47 AM ET (US)     2 / 92       
Haven't played much DM, Ninevah? You would face these Hittite forces everyday in DM games. I like Eygptian or Choson to tangle with Hittite. And as Ender mentioned, heavy on the priests. One possible combo is scythe chariots/EA/priests. I used to do it in AOE with war elles/EA/priests. But cats kill war elles easily now. Put Your EA in the front to draw fire and those 16 range priests behind to convert like mad. Convert only heavy cats or Cents and AE that are standing next to cats. Watch his army kill it's self.....ROFL. Back off and heal those EA!! THIS DOES NOT WORK AT 2.0 AND NOT TO WELL AT 1.5, so take it slow. Lots of micromanagement. If he sends CAs to counter your priests, your EA should handle them with little loss of holy men. I also like to tower behind myself. It gives me a safe zone to heal my units.

Now, here's the surprising thing........you don't need much gold! Remember, you are healing your EA and destroying his troops with converted units and non-gold scythes. I find that I use very little gold when playing Eygptian or Choson.

With Choson, you just plain overhelm your opponent with legions and follow with priests to snag those "very" distracted cats.

C'mon Ninevah, try some DM games. It won't kill you!! lol


Spam
Clubman
posted 12-17-98 11:16 AM ET (US)     3 / 92       
In DM, Carthage can often be a real good Hittite killer, but they need a positively huge economy to do it. Hittite lacks helepoli, which is the only really effective weapon against those swarms of 750 hp Armored Elephants (not counting priests). Cats kill AEs too, of course, but not fast enough, and Carth AEs kill Hittite Ellies and Cents easily.

Choson is also a good choice for fighting Hittite if you're not squeamish about using Martyrdom. Egypt works too, but is more difficult to control than Choson IMO.

As for Minoan, they don't stand a chance against Hittite with a full-power late iron economy. Minoa is completely dead as a DM civ, and there's a reason for that.

My 2 cents.

Spam


Themistocles
Clubman
posted 12-17-98 11:19 AM ET (US)     4 / 92       
I have beaten them with Macedonians, Choson, Romans & Greeks, but it takes a lot of maneuvering.

With Macedonians I try and get 3 or more groups of cents going at him from different directions. I back them up with HHAs, who also require micromanagement. The AEs are also nice, but slow, they work well for a taking hits. A few heavy cavalry are also good. The key to playing Macedonians is to have an ally to heal you.

With Choson & Romans just build hordes of legions and send them on in.

With Greeks use the same strat as Macedonians, but add some of your own HCats.


Themistocles

mrfixit
Clubman
posted 12-17-98 12:41 PM ET (US)     5 / 92       
Choson? Really? In a RM game? If I were Hittite, I would go heavy Phalanx/HHA/Scythes. Use the Scythes for Priests and throw in a few Cats and I think you can smoke the Choson guy...

I also don't think Summie has a good shot. Hittite cats/HHA/Eles rule vs Summie ones. If the Hittite guy makes iron, your dead.

My advise is only that you should attack the Hittite guy FIRST, not wait until the end.

As much as RoR is not balanced with Shang being too powerful in the early game, Hitite is too strong in late game. I do not think they should have gotten HHA (Assy didn't I assume to balance their FR, why did Hittite)?

Mr.Fixit


KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 12-17-98 02:04 PM ET (US)     6 / 92       
Hi Nineveh,

I suggest your take Roman. They have a great combination of fully upgraded HC + SC + HELE. Put the Heles after the HC's and use the SC's for attacking the hittite HC's together with your own HC's.
The heles will take care of his HHA's 'cause they have range 12 and the HHA's have range 10.

This combo is very effective against any civ. For example, against Egyptian, use your SC's against his priests and your heles against his SC's.
Against an ele civ, the fun is even better. I once played a game with Romans where, in the end, an armored Macedonian ele was aproaching 2 separated heles of mine. These 2 heles were able to kill the armored ele just before it came into the 3-tiles dangerzone!!!
Heles are very vulnerable when you move them, or when attacked by cats, but against eles, they totally rule.


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-17-98 04:43 PM ET (US)     7 / 92       
Being a player who plays hittite a lot, I can honestly say that in less than 10% of my games I have ever built war elephants. Why? They are slow and bumbling, and there is nothing worse than getting them converted when they are in the middle of your catapults.

My typical army in late iron is scythe chariots, HHA, and catapults with full upgrades. If I am playing egypt, I will use the scythes and HHAs to clear out priests and a few SCs, and when you get those cats in large numbers almost nothing can touch em...ballistics toned down or not

Priests have never really been a huge problem for me when playing hittite, I would say the threat of egyptian SCs would be harder to counter. Priests would normally get slaughtered by my HAs/HHAs or my scythes, so I never really worried too much about them.

Only a fool would send in catapults first into a battle, cause choson legions would tear em apart. However hotkeying my cats as a group and having them attack ground works well, cause my HHAs pick of choson units that make it past the attack ground "barrage"

All in all, and from my previous experience, indeed choson and egyptian were good competitores, and sumerian DOES stand a chance.


FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 12-17-98 05:25 PM ET (US)     8 / 92       
I think the best way to stop hittite is to run them out of gold, i mean they use a lot of gold on all the upgrades and stuff, they have to have less gold then say a egyptian player. Just build a bunch of Scythe Chariots and Chariot Archers and try to hold him off, Egypt is very good in defense, they have priests with 16 range..(i think) so they can start converting cats and HHA before they even get close, And if the player gets Scythe to stop the priests (another upgrade worth of 800 gold) Then build towers and your own chariots and put priests where you towers are. Map is also very important, if its Mediteranean, you should not have problem defending from a Hittite player, just build tons of ships, and put them around the crossing, far though so that his cats cant get you, but when he starts to mount an attack and start crossing the river hit him with ships, Chariots and CA's, Priests would also be a very nice idea to totally freak out the attacker. Other maps i dont know...

So how do you like my strategy guide? you think it will work? Dont get mad at me if you dont like it though

And Summie is probably the best civ vs. Hittite. And why not take Shang and just Tool/Bronze rush the enemy until he just gets so annoyed and just resign? And why dont you just "disconnect" when you see a Hittite player? (j/k)

FanatiC KaBaN....


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 12-17-98 05:40 PM ET (US)     9 / 92       
well as others ahve said, yer best bet is to hit Hittite players in bronze before they iron. hit'em first. Second in DM Choson stand a chance against Hitters but in RM...NAH! see ya gotta make iron and Legions with Choson. I find Martyrdom to be a very acceptable tech Vs.s Hittite. But hitters is strong. They're Cats HP don't mean much cause they rarely come under fire.(at least how i play.) Bad thing about minie is that everythign you have hittite has, has a better version, or just plain don't need it. SC's Hack on priests and Compos. But one thign is use cavs and coem in from multiple angles of approach(cavs ya say? Yup they do a bit of damge Vs. cats) Try to keep 1 or 2 cavs to a cat. Otherwise they cna blast all yer cats away. Second if they clump Cats togather yer in luck! Get enuff Cavs aroudn and their dead. Now if he's useing HA's than use yer logn range compos, or Heles to clear them out...i ussaully don't let a hiter stick around if i can kill him


Ender
Guest
posted 12-18-98 06:41 AM ET (US)     10 / 92       
just a reminder to anyone adding to this that his question was how to beat hittite iron, not how to beat hittite period. I'm sure he does just fine vs hittite in bronze with his precious composite bowmen. Notice the hittite is still making iron though, since comps don't kill his villagers sorry had to say it


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 07:19 AM ET (US)     11 / 92       
Hittite Iron rules, period.

For an Hittite in Iron to have problems, one or more of the following must be true, assuming balanced players:

* Economic Troubles, part 1: The Hittite has been denied access to further wood.

This is easier said than done, but sometimes tough opponents, well entrenched, and terrain that is hard to progress by slow units leaves the Hittite in a wood shortage - this is FATAL for the hittite - worse, much worse than shortage of Gold.


* Economic Troubles, part 2: The Hittite has been denied access to further gold.

Not as tough as the previous one, but can be even tougher if he's facing two TRADING opponents. Very often, as Hittite, I made a great management of Gold and my opponents not. But they gang-bang on my partner and now I'm alone...

Another thing that happens frequently is that the dead partner "forgets" to tribute, so I lose his gold, plus any that he MIGHT have mined but has let the others mine...


One note to someone above: Hittite DON'T need to spend that much gold with upgrades. As Hittite, I normally go Iron soon after arriving to Bronze exactly because of that...

There are more reasons why other races (except Sumerian) could defeat Hittite, but only these, based on starvation, could serve them.

Sumerian and Egypt are basically the only races that stand a chance by reasons other than Hittite starvation...

As for Unit tactics:

The old tactic of having EA in front of Cats is a great counter to AE Civs and (by denying access to the cats) the Hittite manages to kill an enormous number of Elephants. EA CAN be converted without danger to the Cats...(contrarily to WE, AE and Academy, which if converted near the Cats are a great danger).

The only weapon that I very seldom make as Hittite is the War / Armored Elephant, all the others get some use or another
Actually, as Hittite, I also seldom make Academy, come to think of it...

Well, anyway, you gotta team up 2x1 or be playing Sumerian / Egypt to really give trouble to a reasonably well developed Hittite...

Many people make many Hittite HHA, but I don't like them when there's lag. One enemy Cat shot and I see some 3 or 4 die at once, not a nice sight. With not that much lag, they're decent against all non-elephant units but lag really kils them

There, my 2 cents...


[This message has been edited by Your_Old_Friend (edited 12-18-98).]

Nineveh
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 07:26 AM ET (US)     12 / 92       
Haha, Ender, very cute. Did you notice in the original post how I mentioned "stomping my first 2 opponents and getting beat by a Sim-City playing Hittite?"

Camels, Comps and ST wasted the other 2 guys, A choson and a hittite.

While I realize this is just about beating hittite iron, choson will never beat Hittite bronze. And I dont want to play Roman

Actually, thanks for the advice. The annoying thing about Hittite is how they can change their unit mix to beat you. So you're playing Choson? How do centurions sound to ya, covered by HHA and heavy Cats for your heles?

Roman? Scythes, Cents (for your scythes/legions) Hcats to obliterate your seige and of course HHA picking villies apart.

And BTW Dave, I do play DM, and they only way I have ever beat Hittite is choson legion rush. Which doesnt work in RM.


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

Hyperion
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 07:50 AM ET (US)     13 / 92       
The Hittite iron age army is the best. But catapults aren't mobile.

You beat them by making wherever they live unlivable. Transport in with scythe chariots. Kill the peons. Keep raiding. Keep scouting with chariot archers for outposts. When the cats start rolling toward your peons run like hell. Kill horse archers with scythes.

Whatever you do, don't stand and fight. Try to suck the horse archers away from the catapults and run single peons through the catapults(jihaded Assyrian villagers are amazing at this, btw - I once killed 15 catapults without loss doing just this when an opponent left them undefended). You can't stand and fight Hittite heavy cats. You can martyr them, but I haven't had much luck making it work.

Hittite iron units aren't especially good if you can disperse them and make them try to defend peons. Catapults are _not_ good at that, at all, at all. Au contraire.

I honestly think the best bet against Hittite in iron is to devote all efforts to killing villagers and just ignore the army. Better still to beat them in bronze...but, Nineveh, if you can't beat Hittite 3 on 1, I have no sympathy. They're not _that_ much better.

Persians have, I think, a better RM iron age than Hittite, btw, so you could always just play a real civilization for a change. Priests and fast elephants and horse archers can rush the Hittie early iron right off the map. I don't remember losing to a Hittite with Persia in a game which went iron...except one where the Hittite teammate was *gulp* Egyptian...

My thoughts.


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 09:26 AM ET (US)     14 / 92       
YES!...

Persia is the one I forgot a while ago. If backed by someone tributing food (easy thing in Iron) those pesky elephants CAN do it against Hittite.

Glad you remembered.

On their own, however, it's a very, very tough call for Persian...


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 12-18-98 10:29 AM ET (US)     15 / 92       
I haven't played on the zone much (I can't stand lag! I like to dance units. And I don't think my allies should have to suffer for me resigning out of frustration cuz I can't dance with lag!!!), but have extensively played on a LAN and at games conventions. I used to regularly trash Iron Hittie with Egyptian, Persian (even in AoE with the farm penalty) and Assy (though that might not be possible now since they really didn't get anything significant in RoR.) The key was priests, priests, priests. Groups of 3 or 4 on each hotkey quickly converts anything in range. You just start with them spread out... However, the Hitties I have been playing against lately hole up and Wonder. One opponent likes to set up a barrage with 40 odd HCats on the minefield in front of their walls, with a couple dozen in reserve to target moving opponents. Ballista towers closer to the wall deal with pushy priests. A second base (or an ally) is dedicated to making HHA, Cataphracts and SC to harass.

Bottom line: If I let him get set up, he is tough to beat. In fact, I haven't beaten it yet. And I am out of ideas. Any suggestions? (Other than don't let him get set up...)


Stooge_Jay
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 11:53 AM ET (US)     16 / 92       
I think Hyperion was right on in his post. You cannot compete with the army without tremendous loss, but this not just a game of battling armies. I am not a great early player but once I reach Iron I can hold my own with some of the best. I like Roman against anyone for the same reason I like them against Hittite in Iron. When those slow moving Cats are headed out to find you you sneak in his back door. I have so many times built barracks outside an enemy town and sent masses of legions. While his army is in BFE you are obliterating his town. Even if his vills escape and they usually do, you have halted his economy for several minutes and anywhere he builds you just keep on going. Romans destroy buildings so quickly it is scary. Don't go for his peons, go for his homes. You can't build an army without houses. You can smash Legions with tons of HHAs and cats but who leaves an army like this sitting at their base? And when he sends his HAs supporting his cats to come hit your legions you pump some out from your own base and go mad on his now undefended cats. I don't think Hittite are invulnerable, I think they are slow and that is their end. On a Gigantic map you cannot have cats everywhere and yes Hittite get cents but I am not worried when I get 2 legions for every centurion. Legions are cheap and too quick to produce to stop everywhere. It is easy to make a mistake with cats but when you have only 1 type of unit to control you can make a great general out of anybody. My 2 cents.


Nineveh
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 01:32 PM ET (US)     17 / 92       
I have to respond to the 3v1 comment, my honor is at stake

Both my partners were newbies. Quirinal room.

A typical chat session between me and one of them: (I'm not kidding, this happened, and I was ripped)

Me: Help me attack yellow at 6
Hittite-playing newbie partner: OK
{Loses a mess of Hcats, hele and camels that he trannied into the hittite town}
{HPNP's War Ele, Cat, Scythes army never moves from his town}
Me: Please help me
HPNP K
{His units remain where they are}
Me:I need War Elephant support for my next attack, please go to the center and meet my units
HPNP: OK
{I assemble at the center. Writing shows he isnt coming}
Me: Dammit, help me!
HPNP: OK
{2 war elephants and a cat show up}
{Our attack fails}
Me: Screw it, we're cooked {tributes all resources}
HPNP: OK

I just had to tell that story, I was mad.
Now back to the matter at hand!

Persia, now THERE's an idea, esp with a good partner! Thanks!

What if his AE meet my AE? Run right past under heavy HA fire?

Also, any tips on surviving Carth bronze? Just cuz I want 750 HP AE.


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

Dhamon
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 01:44 PM ET (US)     18 / 92       
if ya want carth AE, DM is the place. those big boys coupled with Heles are a great way to make mindless chosoners learn about Priests


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-18-98 02:06 PM ET (US)     19 / 92       
Persian cannot compete with Hittite in RM. Hittite will outresource them. People think too limited about Hittite. Cats are not their main power anymore. Its their Diversity and how powerful ALL of their units are. They have every single Superunit except Legions (like they care about them) Cataphracts (They have Scyths so who needs 'em) and Helepolis (Thank God They are missing atleast one good Superunit!!) Bring on AEs, and like Nineveh said, Hittite has their own AEs plus the Best HHAs in the game to back them up. Not to mention how much better the hittite economy will be! As far as Choson, another Civ that probably wont make it to Iron in the first place. If they do, Cats still work great against them, but why not just use Scyths until the Choson runs out of gold? Thats right people, the Iron Power House is NOT gold relient. And their Scyths are fully upgradable. Scyths + HHA + A few HCats and Choson will be nothing in Iron. (Remember, this is RM, not DM.) In lower pop and 1.0 speed games Egypt is the only Civ I think can compete. Rome would probably fall the same way as Choson. So basically, in case you cant tell, I think ES made a very bad decision in giving Hittite all the Iron power, to say the very least.


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-18-98 04:43 PM ET (US)     20 / 92       
persia is gold dependant too...


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 09:54 PM ET (US)     21 / 92       
Persia is gold-dependant. True. They have a poor economy. Granted. The longer the game goes in iron the worse their chances become, although they will own the seas against hittite in an extended game, which could be important.

But the Persian early iron age is a lot better than the Hittite. Hittite elephants can't catch the Persian elephants and vanish when the Persian priests appear. It takes a lot of catapults and micromanagement to beat Persian elephants. Persians can get a long, long way ahead in the early iron age.

The other thing to consider in RM is that absolutely anyone playing against the Persians is gold-dependant. Chariots and chariot archers will not serve against an elephant and catapult army. You must have priests or academy or helepoli to survive.

If you see hittite elephants, convert them. If you see horse archers, chase them into your own horse archers, or use catapults. If you see catapults, charge them. If you see Hittite elephants and catapults just keep heading for the catapults and watch them kill the wrong elephants. If you see phalanxes use horse archers.

If the game goes on for very long you probably will need economic help, true. But that's what teammates are for, if they're not contributing to the military effort.


KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 12-18-98 10:01 PM ET (US)     22 / 92       
I usually play random civ games. A few days ago, I had Persian. Well, they are the worst civ I played so far:

1. They don't get wheel.
2. They don't get any other bronze/iron market upgrade, like the last 2 woodcutting upgrades (and +2 missile range).
3. No academy.
4. No chariot archers.
5. Always 25% tax on tribute.

Conclusion: They're very bad in Bronze age. I always try to go iron asap with Persia. Think also of building lots of armored eles & also some triremes.


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 12-19-98 00:40 AM ET (US)     23 / 92       
i think some of you guys miss the point on the choson...sure they arent relly effective unt il iron but longsword man..160 hp and legion 240 hp...may not last as long as some units but they are cheap and come out of barracks very fast..much faster then hittite h.cats...they cost 35 food and 15 gold....dirt cheap...it may not neccesarily be the answer to beating hiitite..but swarms and swarms in wave after wave of longswordman/legion will put a serious drain on hittite war capability...


Indigo
Clubman
posted 12-19-98 02:56 AM ET (US)     24 / 92       
Ironed Hittites can be beaten. I have been playing several 1 on 1's vs. a very skilled hittite player. Most of these games ended undecided. the best choices in my opinion are Egypt and the Shang. here is how to use them:

first of all, how to defeat the all-important cat armies:
scythes are the perfect answer to hittite cats. cheap, fast and mass-damage. nto only that but even if you take out only a couple of cats it is worth it in resources. Build up huge scythe groups, and, if Shang, throw in some h cav. these have more HP than Shang scythes therefore you will find them beating up on cats after the scythes are dead.

you must attack in an organized manner with your full force. simply getting bored and throwing them at the enemy will make you suffer huge losses. *attack from all directions*. north, west,east and south. or at least 2 of these. cats lose their strength when divided , and in this kind of attack i have always won the battles.

Egypt- don't build priests. I know this sounds strange but unless you're really good at using them hittite cats will rip them apart. 1 or 2 are fine, and it is advised that during a skirmish you try to convert a cat, it has plenty of rewards. use scythes in the above-mentioned ways, and always secure the seas. another nice tactic is gold guzzling. stock up on as much gold as you can and chrn out scythes. eventually the hittite will be goldless and then they are as weak as.. as your weakest civ

Shang: plenty to do here. churn out scythes, add ha's and cav and you should be fine. in one case i made a full fledged attack with 40 scythes, 10 cavs and 5 ha's at a hittite base. after heavy losses about 7 cavs survived alongside with a couple of ha's and very few scythes. the cav make a difference.

Choson (i remembered another game): gold guzzling and legions. i have become seasoned at using multiple-attack orders (much to the annoyance of the enemy and was able to defend my base by using the hill (i.e. placing guard towers on the very edge). don't chop wood nextr to your base it can make huge cat armies stop for a while and then it is very easy for you to crush them. also make ha's.. you will need them if the hittite player wises up and throws cents/phalanx at you.. they will defeat your legions. thank god he was out of gold when he discovered that!

i hope this covers it and i know i have been babbling for a very long time


General_Yamo
Inactive
posted 12-19-98 11:26 AM ET (US)     25 / 92       
Sorry, but I just have to comment how much this discussion completely sums up my opinion of Hittites. I don't fear them in a 1v1 game since half the civs in the game have economic and military advantages better than them in tool and bronze. Yes, without slingers they don't even have an advantage in tool age. Egypt, Minoa, Shang, Phonecia, Assy, Yam, and maybe even Sumer, Mac, and Babs can all beat Hitties in a 1v1 before they get to iron. If you can count on your teamates putting pressure on the enemy early enough the same is true even in 3v3. The patchwork teams common on the Zone though are what I think make Hitties popular...

So, why play Hittie?? IMHO the only reason to play them now is to count on your opponents getting a bad start or more likely just being plain bad, and then getting that versatile, all powerful iron army. To me playing them, now more than ever, really relies on hoping your opponents aren't good enough to stop you. I know people that get attached to particular civs are going to start howling, but if you want to dispute it tell me where they've got an advantage over all of the above mentioned civs before bronze and why against an equal opponent that shouldn't end the game right there.

As far as advice about fighting Hittites in an iron rm, jeesh, I don't know if there's a good way. Since most of them have been going with packs of HAs and just a few cats as a threat now I've been using more cats in front with Minoa backed by some heles and hoping it will even out, but thats just for predictable types... Egypt's scythes are great, but will die to massed archers (things bunch up in a charge like idiots.) Still probably the best civ in an rm iron against them...


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