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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » palmyrians and other bronze civ question
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Topic Subject:palmyrians and other bronze civ question
vmay
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 09:35 AM ET (US)         
Ok guys,

after playing some of you and listening to your talk I finally figured out that I should start fighting as early as possible as opposite to building small army in bronze and waiting for iron, hoping that nobody touches me until then.

Results are really amazing, I win more games and win them faster.

I am moving from iron civs to bronze ones now. I used to play hittie, roman, minoan. Now I had some nice games with shang, phoenie. Yesterday I tried palmy and they were fine.
So -- the question. How would you reccomend to use palmy efficiently? Is it valid assumption that having 50 real palmy villies equals to 60 other civ's ones in the sense of production?

And what other civs are worth taking look at with regard of bronze (and tool) warfare?

Thanks to everybody.
Regards.

AuthorReplies:
vmay
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 11:44 AM ET (US)     1 / 17       
comon,

RomanGladius, BlitzkreigComing, Popov,
as well as others,
your advices and opinions are extremely valued.

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 11:51 AM ET (US)     2 / 17       
vmay:

I do a small Tool army, 1-2 Scouts and 3-4 Bowmen, and a huge Bronze army, 50+ TTL of a CA, Camel, Cavalry combo (as you have found out the hard way).

My favorite civs are ones that offer the CA, Camel, and Cavalry combo (thanx Popov). I am starting to mix in ST's more also. Shang is the fastest, Hittite can be great also. When I have 100 villies and a 50+ Bronze army, I think about Ironing.

I have experimented with Palmy a lot. I find that they are very map dependant. They gotta have lots of food early. Palmy can do a great dock boom. I will usually have a 0:30-1:00 slower Tool time, have 40-42 TTL villies with 20-23 reals, but can have a great Bronze army because by then the Palmy villies can be massed and out perform all other villies. Palmy villies in Bronze are as good as any other villies with Iron upgrades.

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 02:38 PM ET (US)     3 / 17       
Yes I notcied that you didn't pound on me early in our games vmay.

Most good players will at least harass you with an axer or scout in early tool. Then its followed by the Ca rush and then by me resigning.

Now that you have picked up on this little fact I will never be able to play you again.

Ok where's the next rookie who wants to beat on me.

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 02:54 PM ET (US)     4 / 17       
Thats the problem with Palmy, Blitz. By the time you are in bronze other civs bonuses kick in and the Palmy vill loses his advantage. But the cost of a Palmy vill remains higher.

Attack a Palmy players vills and you really hurt his economy because of the expense of new vilagers.

Anyway to answer your question vmay, most of the fighting in this game should be done in bronze. Either you will quickly defeat or cripple your enemy to end the game or you will have some great battles with an evenly matched opponent as both of you attempt to reach iron. The key is don't jump to iron unless your economy can support it. Jumping too fast to iron kills a lot of players because of low resources and an attack by a strong bronze army.

Summary.

Try to harass your opponent in tool, keep the pressure on in bronze, and go to iron first if you have the tactical advantage and the economy.

vmay
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 03:12 PM ET (US)     5 / 17       
mmm.....

You know, I had 15 min bronze with palmy, having 44 villies. Roughly it's the regular time for me. I did have nice spot: 2 berry patches by one granary, but i did not have lack of wood so I think that I would be fine with building 2 granaries also.

I think its true for any civ: lose of villies is expensive. But you need to spend more effort to kill palmy then any other civ so I think cost - armor combination negates itself pretty fine.

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 04:35 PM ET (US)     6 / 17       
Well I am not an authority on any civ, vmay, but I have read a lot about the game.

Have you looked at an old thread entitled "Palmyran power". It has about 50 posts by some of the better players. I would pay particular attention to any posts by either Jehu or Neilkaz. Both excellent posters who always get the facts right.

I'm not putting Palmyra down, but the general consensus is it is one of the weaker civs. The patch may have improved them though I am not sure.

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 04:44 PM ET (US)     7 / 17       
Here's what I am talking about. Post by Neilkaz:As many of you may know, I think Palmy is a lousy civ. When I get them in random civs I really have two choices. 1) To really damage the opposition in bronze and 2) To be able to tribute my allies well enough that they are capable of winning the game in bronze or iron.
Palmy has extreme difficulty over coming a BAD starting spot which occasionally leaves me with choice 3) Just trying to survive.

Since I am not often blessed with allies good enough to expertly take advantage of tributes to attack effectively and win the military 2v3, I usually have to resort to case 1.

If I can get a decent and fast semi-boom bronze w/Palmy (21v/15b 14 min) I can often mount a nice attack while still making occasional new workers and upgrading them economically. However, I still am in trouble vs a well executed big boom (29v/23b 14:30) as that economy has more food than mine and thus can expand faster.(Fortunately,most people can't do that or if they can ,they don't have the spot) After both of us get our tool and bronze age economic upgrades the effective percentage differences in gathering rates decline substantially. I honestly need to put "a real hurting on someone" in bronze w/Palmy IMO.

In iron Palmy's army suffers from lack of range. Palmy's scythe have no metalurgy. Palmy lacks good priests to help supports it's eles. Palmy has nothing at all to make it a military stand out in the Iron Age.

The following analysis will show why Palmy's vils are clearly not better than other civs that get all the economic upgrades in Iron !!

If you add up all the cost of the economic upgrades for both civs (wheel included) you'll find that a civ like Hitt spends 2165 res for all the upgrades while Palmy saves 440 on craftsmanship and 300 on coinage for a total of 1425 spent.

Now lets assume that a reasonable mid-iron economy has made 70 REAL vils. You may have a few less alive but some did die along the way.

Now for Hittite 2165/70 = 31 added cost per villager resulting in an effective cost per vil of 81 res.

For Palmy 1425/70 = 20 added and thus resulting in an effective cost per vil of 95 res to get a fully upgraded iron worker assuming you have made 70 of them.

Thus, assuming 70 vils, the Iron age Palmy still costs you over 17% more per worker.

I will now try to show that as a whole, Palmy's workers are no better than Hitt's in iron.

Shorefishing and Hunting.. Palmy is better but honestly how many shorefish and animals are left in mid iron ? You may hunt a stray deer or something but good luck remembering to assign that vil or two back to work during and iron battle. Hunting and SF bonuses are also effectively reduced by any walking. I'll say there is NO real advantage here in mid-iron.

Wood both civs have the same gather rate of 1.155 and the difference in carry rate 14/16 doesn't matter for 40 wood trees (3 trips) There are occasional 75 wood forest trees and these required Hitt to make 5 trips while Palmy needs 6. Thus Hittite-type civs have a very slight wood gathering advantage in iron.

Range of unit is an offshoot of the wood upgrade. Palmy lacks craftsmanship and thus every arrow shot has one less range. This is a SERIOUS disadvantage of the lack of craftsmanship.

Gold Palmy gathers gold at .95 while civ's w/coinage gather it at .935. This very slight advantage(1.6%)is hugely off set by the fact that coinage gives you effectively 25% more gold. Let's say that you have 2 gold mines in your area and they have 6400 gold total. You mine 1400 gold before coinage is done and 5000 after. Coinage thus gives you 1250 extra gold !! Clearly this off sets the tiny gathering speed advantage Palmy now has. Coinage give you free tribute again negating that advantage. Clearly, the Hitt type civs have a gold advantage too.

But wait, neilkaz, you didn't mention trading ! Unfortunately, and as usual, the manual is WRONG about Palmy getting twice as much gold per trip. They don't and have no way to get over 75 gold per trip! The benefit they do have is that they can get more gold from shorter trade routes than other civs can. However, you always won't have good trade routes safely functioning and you have to make the trade boats and give up food or wood to trade. IMO Palmy's trading bonus can rarely offset the lack of coinage. Thus Palmy is clearly inferior in terms of gold when it comes to the ironage.

Stone.. Hitt gathers at 1.05 and Palmy at 1.25.. Palmy is clearly gathering 19% faster here. As you'll normally have only a few guys on a stone mine this won't be reduced much by walking. However, there isn't a ton of stone on most maps and it isn't usuallyas important as gold. Thus, IMO, I'd still rather have coinage than Palmy's 19% faster stone mining capability.

Farming is 12.5 faster for Palmy.. this is nice but slightly offset by the time build the farms and also hurt by the lack of plow and irrigation. You get into a LONG game where you have built 15-20 farms and start having to recycle them and you'll see that having ALL the farm upgrades does indeed help you. I stress that, per my analysis, you need a large scale farming operation to benefit. IMO we can give Palmy only a slight farming advantage in mid-iron (ie effectively less than 10%)

Villagers Palmy's 1 armor and Piercing armor are almost worthless in the face of iron age weaponry. All vils dies when in contact with Iron age weaponry. OK so Palmy has Jihad but so do some other good iron tech civs like Phoe. I will give Palmy vils a tiny advantage due to armor in mid iron.

OK summing it all up in Mid Iron.

Wood very slight disadvantage for Palmy

Range (an off shoot of wood) clear disadvantage for Palmy)

Fish/Hunt no difference.. nothing much left

Gold Clear disadvantage for Palmy (rarely offset by trading) and Gold quantity is very important. With 2 typical mine Palmy mines 6400 while Hitt mines 7650. After ironing Palmy has 5600 gold to use on units/and military upgrades while. Hitt has 6750 gold or over 20% more for the same purpose after coinage.

Stone gathered 19% faster by Palmy.. not at all worthless but no where near as valuable as coinage would be.

Farming maybe at best effectively only 10% faster do to lack of farm upgrades, thus requiring continued rebuilding of farms.

Villagers Palmy's have a tiny advantage do to armor.

OK all in all, I have trouble believing that 19% faster stone mining plus at best 10% faster farming and a tiny vil armor advantage coupled with the chance for somewhat better trading can off set the LARGE benefit of having effectively 20% more gold touse on units.

Even if we give Palmy the benefit of the economic doubt and say that the gathering balances out.. we have one very BIG drawback to the lack of craftmanship and that is RANGE.

In conclusion, IMO, you spend over 17% more per Palmy villager to result in, at best, equivilent gathering while having every arrow shot travel 1 square less.

Thus we see Palmy's large drawbacks in iron. Not to mention their poor, in comparison to other civs, iron army.

IMO, in a well played 3v3,Palmy should not even bother to spend 1800 res and Iron and produce iron age units unless your allies are near their pop limits and you collectively need the military you can produce. Other than that,I'd stay in bronze and feed away while having my work areas walled and towered like fortresses.

When you look at the economic analysis and then consider Palmy's poor iron age army you can see why they need to do something that causes decisive pain to the enemy in the bronze age.

Now consider that Palmy has SEVERE trouble with a bad map and also is really hurt by tool rushes because it is really costly early in the game to replace dead 75 food vils.

Thus we see why I continue to insist that Palmy belongs with Greece and Carthage as one of the game's three worst civs.

I have almost never seen any one play a "GOOD" game w/Palmy and when they/I did we had a very good starting spot. ( I am not talking about trashing newbies who bronze in 19 minutes in their sim-city)

Palmy is a VERY poor civ. They are certainly unique and interesting, but they really STINK... neilkaz...

vmay
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 04:51 PM ET (US)     8 / 17       
Thanks, boneser!

Very informative...

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 06-22-00 05:45 PM ET (US)     9 / 17       
Palmy in bronze rocks. You can outproduce and beat just about everyone. They also have the full bronze tech tree (except logistics, but who cares about that?) The problem is getting there. With guaranteed villager lag and 75f villagers they fall to a good tool rush 99.9% of the time.

BTW, in almost all the games I play there is heavy fighting in tool. (It's not always decisive, but usually heavy). Palmy is horrendous in tool, because it is always the last one there. (unless you a 12 villager thing, in which case a boomer would simply mop the floor on you with a huge tool army or a bigger bronze econ)

Last note on palmy: Once they Iron, they have no more economic advantage (except in stone mining, but that doesn't matter). No coinage & no craftsmanship = 75f villagers that hold less than regular villagers but gather at the same rate. And their Iron, while decent, would not be mistaken for say, Roman.

As for teh other civs you mentioned. Hittite, once they get going (another big if), is just unstoppable. They are the 2nd best in bronze (right behind mace). 5 attack CA, double hp ST, +4 range galleys is a nightmare. Instead of going Iron just use that army. The thing I don't like about Hittites is that they have no slingers and they're slow to tool. Slingers, or quick axers can mean trouble. +4 range on scout ships doesn't matter too much if there are ships covering your docks...

Minoan, these dudes are nasty in bronze as well, how could you think of skipping to Iron with them? They don't even have Horse Archers to even the villy gap associated with an Iron jump. Compies, ST, war galleys and the great econ is awesome if you don't get killed first by cams, cavs, or CA. :-(

Roman in bronze...forget it, use their great booming to make a monster tool army.

Phoe...I have not tested them much after the patch but they seem unexceptional to me (only +9% in woodcutting now, doesn't seem like much to me)

Last point in this disorganized post, I heard you saying a lot that you really can't do the fast tool or regular tool age attack. You ought to learn it. IMHO you'll win more games, and win them faster I don't have much time anymore, and I'll be going away soon for a while, but you can zm as SmurfingSwordie sometime and I'll help you out with that if you want.

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-22-00 11:39 PM ET (US)     10 / 17       
Palmy plays a lot like Babylon in Bronze. Palmy has a great deal of variety, with seveal options to take in Bronze. Actually, Shang is like that too. Anyway, they have a lot of options, but they don't have a specific strong point.

Hittite has CA/ST.

Phoe has CA/ST/Cavs/Cams/EA in iron.

Minoa has Comps/ST.

Etcetera

Anyway, Palmy has great variety, but nothing in the way of military power to provide a strong punch. They have the edge in bronze economical superiority and can get the advantage of numbers. That only assuming that they can get a good start in Stone.

Palmy has their moment in the sun. Unfortunately, it's a very narrow window of opportunity to strike decisively. It is also dependant on a good start.

On the plus side, if you can take one guy out, you have basically won, especally if you can trib up your teammates.

Flawless Angel
Banned
posted 06-23-00 02:33 AM ET (US)     11 / 17       
Hittite kicks @$$ in Bronze, Tool, and Iron.

------------------
-- Vladislav --
------------------

vmay
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 09:29 AM ET (US)     12 / 17       
Thanks for all your replies!

Hittie was my first civ so it's natural that I started playing heavy siege. I played it with romans and minoans -- this is how I ended up with mino in iron: HCats + helos. I tried to play mino in bronze recently but they r slow to move around. Their camels outrun compies, little extra managing required. I guess I'll try more.

Flawless,
Hittie dont rock in tool because they dont have slingers, the best tool unit in my opinion.

Phoeni have full tool/bronze tree, and with their wood bonus and my lousy manegement I have some unrealistic amount of wood once in bronze.

I guess I understand palmy problem with their expensive villies more now. Thanks again!

Roman, I'll try to catch up with you while you still here with us

What about mace? I hear here and there that they are the best in bronze. How come? They are so slow.... How do you use them?

Thanks!

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 11:48 AM ET (US)     13 / 17       
Ah yes, mace, my favorite. Mace really isn't slow, they just aren't fast. They have a bit of an advantage over civs without econ bonuses because of their scouting.

1) They can see more.
2) They can avoid lions more easily.
3) Their forward builders can avoid detection more easily.

Mace in bronze is very strong, yes.

Look at this army and tell me what you think.

Half-price Stone Throwers.
Fully upgraded (for Bronze Age) Compies.
Hoppers that take 3 rounds from 25 compies just to die (after Bronze shield, 2 rounds from 25 comps before).

Actually, the half-price STs are really not necessary for this army, as hoppers can wipe out cities faster than the ST can. It does take some time to build up, as you need to make academies and upgrade to compies, but it's a very powerful late bronze/early army army.

They also don't fare too badly in iron, at least they do have coinage. (They lack the wheel and craftmanship though...).

In iron, against non-siege civs, those cheap ballista can put a hurting on. Also, they have Cents (not much to be proud of, I'll admit), Armored Eles, and HHA. Not too shabby of a support army for an ally.

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 06-23-00 06:56 PM ET (US)     14 / 17       
Yep, gotta love that Mace steamroller. They're barely any faster than a reg civ though, so it's hard to get going. I usually axer rush with them, their axers are awesome. You don't need any scouts with Mace axers because they see so far.

In bronze, Mace is powerful but slow. Mace cavalry rock (no need for a scout again), but they fall prey to a couple defensive camels. Enemy camels and CAs can give their nonwheeled villies a lot of problems, too. In mid-late bronze, as apoc said, the hoppers or compies/ST are just nasty. The problem is the army is so darn slow.

About Palmy's advantage in Bronze, just outproduce your enemy and overwhelm him. If the enemy goes Iron, though, Palmy is usually in trouble...

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 11:55 PM ET (US)     15 / 17       
This is something that applies to certian civs, in this discussion, I think it applies to Palms and Mace. There are a few others.

Anyway, you have a very strong Bronze army. Your opponent irons. What do you do? Back off and iron?

No way.

You go straight after him. He spent 1800 resources on ironing. Go kick his @$$! He needs what to get his military up to iron age speed? Resources, yes, but more importantly, the elusive fifth resource, TIME. You need to go to him and take away his time, or else you will have no chance.

Just FYI, this also applies to tool. I stayed in tool for nearly 47 minutes in a 1v1 game, my opponent bronzed in 16-something. I won because I saved 800 food and spent it on axers, slingers, and bows to take out the few measly cavs he could throw at me. Had I bronzed, he would've eaten my tool army alive and then moved on to me.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-24-00 01:32 AM ET (US)     16 / 17       
My estimate is that jumping to the next age is good, but only if you could still afford an army at least half as expensive as his and have enough time (or can buy enough time) to mass such an army before bringing them into battle. If so, you'll kick him right off the planet so it's worth it. If you lack the resources or (as apocalypse77 mentioned) the *time* to do so then you're probably better off either fighting him, or running and keeping your resources to rebuild and obtain sweet revenge.
sai_so
Clubman
posted 07-17-00 02:29 AM ET (US)     17 / 17       
good one!,to the top
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