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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Catapult counter-attacks
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Topic Subject:Catapult counter-attacks
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Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:14 PM ET (US)         
I have been reading alot of posts that talk about how cats can kill various types of units. I don't get it. How? Seems to me that cats can only kill anything that CAN'T MOVE like towers and buildings. Even the slowest moving infantry units just have to move a little bit to avoid cat fire. If you approach cats in a zig-zag manner, you can get to them without a scratch. Send in some units to also deal with their supporting units and cats are dead meat. Even a lowly villie only needs a few wacks at a cat and it's done.

So how do cats kill military units?

AuthorReplies:
SirDinadan
Clubman
posted 04-26-00 02:48 PM ET (US)     51 / 73       
Dave,
Have you never seen Sumerian Heavy Cats upgraded for Ballistics & Engineering? We're talkin' 60 attack points delivered out to 15 tiles range every 2.5 seconds(twice as fast as anyone else), they track their targets & don't even need a direct hit(LARGE area damage). . . Persian(speed) Armored Eles or upgraded Cataphracts are your best bet counter units... Good Luck!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-26-00 03:12 PM ET (US)     52 / 73       
Dave:
Ah, I think I see the problem with the marty priests. I don't try to go convert them in the center, I convert one in front-center. It's accessible, and I can usually kill another 40ish gold with it before it dies.
SirDinadan:
Actually, sumerian cats fire every 3.33 seconds, or 50% faster than anyone else.
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-26-00 03:36 PM ET (US)     53 / 73       
SirDinadan: about the Sumerian cats with balistics and eng - no I haven't tried them. I'll check them out. I'll test out the Persian eles. My earlier tests were with the upgraded cataphracts and they didn't work against post-iron cats.

wedsaz: I'll test with your front-center idea.

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-27-00 01:18 PM ET (US)     54 / 73       
Here's why Persia's economy is bad.

They cut wood slow. VERY slowly, without wheel, artisanship, or craftsmanship.

You need wood for farms. SO that's more villies needed on wood.

Wait, their farms are the worst in the game. So that's even MORE villagers on wood...which is their weakness.

Anyway with farming at only .40f/sec, you'll never be able to constantly make phants...(compare .40 with 1.15 for woodcutting...)

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-27-00 03:19 PM ET (US)     55 / 73       
... and that's why I start a boat boom with persia while tooling.
 
Until mid-bronze, their woodcutting is as good as almost any civ. Their early food boost from even small amounts of hunting frees up their villies for wood duty, which means they can boom strong and early.
 
On land maps, yes farming is a necessity. However, if it was so essential to save wood on farms I think we'd see more sumerians there...
 
On water (islands) or amphibious (conti/medit/narrows) maps, I find a dock boom continues brining in a whole lot of food until mid-iron. When I get there, I still have plenty of untouched berry patches to pick. If you farm before iron age on a water map, you're probably dead.
 
Oh btw, persian gets the fishing ship and merchant ship upgrades in case you were wondering.
butch26
Clubman
posted 04-27-00 03:25 PM ET (US)     56 / 73       
dont waste your time RomanGladius, He thinks persia is one of the best civs, and nothing anybody says can change his mind. he may be right, but i'll be damned if i've ever seen anybody kick ass with them.
Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 06:10 PM ET (US)     57 / 73       
Hey I've had the H.Catiput balista tower combo used on me before, I wonder by who And beleive me, eles don't stand in thier way, nor do chariots
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 06:49 PM ET (US)     58 / 73       
butch26:
Actually, I don't think they're among the best civs. I do think they're better than people seem to believe.
 
They are likely to get a major speed boost from early hunting. Their economy doesn't fall behind until mid-bronze. That means they can have some nice opportunities to rush. After that, their economy falls behind so if they didn't do damage early they're in trouble. Then again, I wouldn't want yam past early bronze if I didn't slow down the enemy either.
 
Finally, they are a good iron civ up there with hittite and choson, economy aside.
 
Conclusion: decent rush civ, maybe not bad in the long run with a palmy ally.
 
Caesar_Constintine:
You'd be surprised what persian AE can do. Yes it's a bit hard to mass them, but then again it's hard to build up to hcats+btowers too.
Desperado
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 08:51 PM ET (US)     59 / 73       
I think the best defense for cats are the helopolis'. They can kill the enemy from good range before they get there and the cats can take care of the dirty work. They can dodge other cats fire too, which is a good advantage against the enemy if they want to try and get you eith cats.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 09:26 PM ET (US)     60 / 73       
Desperado:

In the kindest possible way, you are DEAD WRONG. You send 40 Heloposis against 20 Hittite Heavy Cats and I will show you 40 dead Heloposis. Heavy Cats have the range and damage area to kill by the dozen before they get in range. Heloposis are for slow infantry and eles, not Heavy Cats.

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 05-04-00 10:09 PM ET (US)     61 / 73       
Damn, one last attempt butch26. This dude can't seem to stop spewing BS.

wedsaz:
You start your boat boom during transition to tool?

Huh?

Fishing boats need to be on the board for as long as possible for maximum RoI. I don't really have the energy to explain this, but it makes a lot of sense.

Besides, while you are building fboats during tool, I've built my fboats during stone and am stockpiling wood to sink your newly born fbs. Meanwhile you could sink ALL my fbs and I'm still ahead. I will have a larger navy because I didn't stick (many) guys on food during Stone (my fboats did the work) and cut all the way to Tool (and continued chopping). You, on the other hand, stuck most your guys on FOOD during tool and chopped all the way to tool..and spent that wood on fbs. Looks like all your fbs die, I go with massive SS, take sea, go Bronze or scouts, you lose.

NOW:

Back to the topic.

I'll say this again. Support your Catapults and you'll be invincible. They put a TON of hurt on any troop type from a very long range. Anyone who makes a Catapult only army deserves the humiliating beating tney're about to get.

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 11:00 PM ET (US)     62 / 73       
helos vs cats? hehehe.......... a single cat would probably be able to kill off 20 or so helos before it dies......
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 00:46 AM ET (US)     63 / 73       
RomanGladius:
No, dock booming normally should start as early as you can spare the wood. Persian can get much food in quickly, with a pit rather than a granary. That means it can be near a forest or at least stragglers, and you can both dock early and tool early. That means you can start making your first warboats around the 8 min mark. By the time a booming opponent reaches tool, you can be waiting for his warships at his docks, outnumbering them as they come out.
 
Basically, the idea is to use persian hunting (0.75f/sec, RoR SF = 0.60f/sec) rather than berries (0.45f/sec) to jump-start a dock boom, getting food to maintain villie production using less villies, and not having to build a granary until much later, all of which means more wood early on, so an earlier boom.
 
Bottom line: persian needs LESS villies on food early, which means they can boom bigger earlier, tool FASTER and have MORE scout ships EARLIER. The faster tool with an equally earlier boom can lead to a FASTER bronze, and earlier WAR GALLEYS, which are about twice as powerful as scout ships. Another benefit of an early bronze is the capacity to make woodcutters from multiple TCs, increasing your woodcutting power faster than a tool-age opponent.
 
This is an opinion based on limited experience with persian, not a statement of fact. I suggest you try it yourself, see what kinds of results you can get. I got 8 min tool and 11 min bronze with decent spots, and a 20 villie + 20 boat econ upon reaching that bronze. That was an early attempt and I'm not good with land econs, I'm sure you could do better.
br8k_u_n2
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 09:09 AM ET (US)     64 / 73       
Allright I can't sit still any longer and watch this idiot make a fool out of himself. Persia has the worst economy in the game hands down. The only other eco worse than them early in the game is palmy. And if palmy can wall they will catch up in a hurry if you know what you are doing. The Macedonian weakness in eco is more than compensated in bronze by its super military. Persia gets crap until Iron Age, eco and militarily. The specials it gets in Iron are AE, which they can't afford because of the cost of them (which are ripped apart by priests and heles) and their triremes (which they only recieve the first woodcutting upgrade to chop for). Wedsaz, you are a fool. Call me anytime for a game and I have a feeling I can take any civ and give you just about any other civ and I imagine I won't have a lot of problems rolling you in very little time. You ever been hit with a fully upgraded scout rush at about the 10:00 mark? It ain't pretty.
ZM me anytime for a game and even though I do not even consider myself a top tier 1v1 player, I do know that if you use your ideas against the way I play, you will not last very long even if I get crap for a map.
butch26
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 09:32 AM ET (US)     65 / 73       
Only one problem, if those scout ships target your fb's your eco is f***ed. I would gladly trade 10 ss to destroy your food supply. And dont say you would protect them, because if you build 30-40 of them, by the 8 min mark they will be pretty spread out as the fishing spots run out. thats the one thing i've never liked about fishing, the longer you do it, the harder it is to protect them fb's
Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 10:15 AM ET (US)     66 / 73       
Blitz:

I think what Desparado was saying was this: Helepolis is a good unit to use as a defense for your cats...aka complimentory unit...aka used with your cats. Not trying to be a dumbass here, but what I am trying to say still sounds hazy. I would really hope that Desparado doesn't honestly believe that helps can take down cats. Cause if he does, that can mean only one thing...wedsaz has a little brother.

Dave
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 11:15 AM ET (US)     67 / 73       
I have a question after butch26's comment about the FB's.

If you boat boom and gather lots of fish and your boats start to get spread out then ... do you really care about protecting them later? I mean by then they have pretty much served their purpose - getting lots of food early on in the game to help you tool and perhaps bronze. When the nearest fishing spots start to get far away, you have to switch to hunting or farming. Isn't that what most people do?

Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 11:33 AM ET (US)     68 / 73       
Dave:

You do have a point, however most good players I play against do whatever it takes to win the sea in tool and into bronze. Once they kick other civs off sea they are free to fish unmolested. Since a fb has a higher gathering rate than a farm and doesn't need additional wood investment like farms I am a fb fan. Build up for a tool boat rush take the sea and horde the fish baby. I believe many medit games are won and lost in tool on the sea.

If your opponent has to throw down farms or pit some eles then you will keep the advantage on getting to iron first. At least that is the way I see it.

Dave
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 12:00 PM ET (US)     69 / 73       
Leper: makes sense. Thanks.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 01:18 PM ET (US)     70 / 73       
If you boom (FB boom), you HAVE to tool rush...Especially if you're Yams or Minos (gold civs):also, you are FORCED to tool rush vs good players if you try to boomtherwise, then other guy (if he's a good player) is gonna check achievements each 10 secs (like I do) and he'll see you're booming (if he knows how to read the achievements and the changes in the villies numbers that occurs and the timeline, he'll know how much docks you have:this is what I call an expert) and he'll tool fast and get all, and I mean ALL your FB: I don't recall losing a game when one guy in my game boomed and massed army after:he usually lose ALL his FB soon after he reached tool or while brzing. Also, if I see one guy trying to outboom me, I get mad at him and I go navy and kills everyone FB to make sure nobody is no longer booming...So, it means, Dave, that you gotta do navy to defend your FB (or attack with navy if you boomed).
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 02:16 PM ET (US)     71 / 73       
that is ror's big flaw... the in game achievement screen....... it lets ppl see what other players are doing even if you dont see them directly ..... if im in a game and on achievements i see someone with 1/3 higher pop than everyone else..... i see my 1st target.....

that's no good tho, players should be able to keep their tactics a secret without achievement screen blowing it for them.....

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 03:07 PM ET (US)     72 / 73       
Blackheart:
I agree.
Desperado
Clubman
posted 05-07-00 01:03 AM ET (US)     73 / 73       
Well the Cats and the Helopolis combo works for me most of the time, thats all I'm saying.
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