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Topic Subject:Advance target times
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 05:21 PM ET (US)         
So far, my fastest times are:

tool at about 11, bronze at about 20.
If I iron it's no earlier than 40 (I guess that's pretty bad).

What kinds of target times should one shoot for?
i.e how fast do you need to advance to hope to be in good shape?

AuthorReplies:
Lotus_Esprit_V8
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 05:38 PM ET (US)     1 / 22       
Ok, I always shoot for a 10-12 minute tool (minimum) followed by a 13-15 minute bronze. I then go for military, and hurt enemy, then go for IRON, which is about 27 mins

remember, if you attack 1st, you're usually doing fine. I hate to defend. and when in enemy's town, go for woodies, then farmers, gold, and last any other villie you see, if no villies, mow down buildings

------------------
Vladislav
Zone: _Lost_Atlantis_

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 05:55 PM ET (US)     2 / 22       
Shouldn't you go for some military before bronze (even though it's limited)? Otherwise you risk getting wiped out. Of course this delays your bronzing for a few minutes. So (about) how long can you afford to delay bronzing in favor of military balance?
Hyper
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 05:58 PM ET (US)     3 / 22       
tool time:
8 - 10 for tool rushing, 10 - 12 if booming

bronze time:
12:30 - 14:00 if rushing, 13:00 - 16:00 if booming

iron time:
< 20 if iron jumping, < 35 if not

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:22 PM ET (US)     4 / 22       
i dont count tool times..... but .... booming 14-16 bronze .... if not booming ... then bronze at about 13

about making army before bronze...... when u are tooling..... take 2 vills and go towards enemy position.... build some military building(s) on him, and while bronzing, make a couple tool units to throw him off...... doing this you dont have to worry about your base, as he will be busy with your attack .... when building up though, dont build TOO close to the enemy, or he will spot you, and send villagers to kill your builders....

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:32 PM ET (US)     5 / 22       
tool rush:
tool 7-10 depending on size of rush
 
bronze rush:
tool 8-10, bronze 12-16 depending on civ and again size of rush
 
bronze boom:
tool 8-12, bronze 13-18 depending on civ and size of boom
 
iron jump:
tool 8-12, bronze 13-18, iron 18-24 depending on civ and how much risk you're willing to take
 
As a general rule, getting to an age faster will help you set up defenses faster, but will delay your speed to later ages.
 
Don't let the fight be among your villies. Either attack the enemy first and fight among *his* villies, or fight near your town but still a good distance from your villies if you must defend. Being near a large group of ranges help you win the fights more easily, since reinforcements are closer. Also, not having to walk one or several villies to the enemy base early will help your economy. I have often beaten assy CA rushers this way in the old days, since they usually put everything they had on the initial rush so if I won I could walk my 40-50 compie army calmly towards their town and they had nothing left to defend.
 
I suggest taking shang to practice your speed, try to optimize the number of villagers, when to build what, etc to get your bronze speed down to 12 minutes. Then do the same with minoan using 2 docks to boat boom. That should get things nicely started.
The Composite
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:38 PM ET (US)     6 / 22       
Weel what i do is:
as soon as i start i make my villagers build barraks. Then i make them build lots of houses. I make as many clubmen as possible, then atack while the enemy is vulnerable.
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:44 PM ET (US)     7 / 22       
Wedsaz, please explain what "bronze boom" means! What's the difference between "bronze boom" and "bronze rush"?

Also, to get to tool I usually have about 8 vils on food and 8 on wood.

To get to bronze I use about 12 vils on food and use heavy farming. Of course I need to maintain almost the same number of vils on wood to keep up production.

Are these o.k. distributions? To achieve bronze in 10-12 min how many vils do you need on food and how many on wood?

While all of this going on, I'm trying to build forward military buildings, a few military units and doing some armor upgrades. Is it better to hold off this consumption of food in favour of getting to bronze?

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 07:08 PM ET (US)     8 / 22       
the composite : if you make clubmen that early - you are dead.... stone clubbers are weak, you are wasting food that could go on villagers.... cuz in stone, villagers can fight off clubmen .... if i saw you sending clubbers to my woodies, i bet you wouldnt be able to kill even 1, cuz my villagers would gang up on u..... so thats no good.... at least tool 1st

dave : bronze rush , or fast bronze (which is the most common name) is a strat used on maps without large concentrations of water.... hillz, inland... etc... basically making around 20-24 villagers and hoping for a 13 min or less bronze time.....

bronze boom, or boat boom (again the most common name) is used on continental, mediterranean, and sometimes narrows maps...... basically is you start off with berries, make a storage pit by forest, and then every vill that comes out of tc you put on wood.... by 7-8 mins you should have build 3 docks (on outside of map in cont, or in middle on medit) .... and pump out fishing boats until you have a total population of 45-50 ... then when the berries are done, all your vill are on wood ..... tool time is slow... but this massive economy lets you bronze right after tooling......... resulting in 14:30 - 16:00 bronze time with lots of resources for your disposal

hope that answered your q's even if meant for the all powerful and all knowing wedsaz

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 07:17 PM ET (US)     9 / 22       
Blackheart, thanks so very much for your answers. They did help alot to clarify things! My reply wasn't necessarily for wedsaz, just that I figured he'd answer to his own posting.

If you try to bronze boom and thereby delay your tool time, isn't that kind of risky since your enemy might bronze rush and come at you while you are just coming out of bronze and starting to build up military strength?

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 07:45 PM ET (US)     10 / 22       
perhaps.... but you have to look at 3 things...


1) if you're on cont or med maps.... your enemies are going to boom .... if you dont, they will overpower you because of their economies .... you have a chance to attack them early... but while you may kill off some villagers.... they will come back at you cuz their ships are constantly gathering food...

2) boat booming is easier .... you always have a forest nearby, and you always know that in cont, fish are on outside of map, and in med, fish are in the middle.... so if you plan to boom you know exactly what you will do.... if you try fast bronzing.... things may not always go your way ... like you cant find more land food, so your fast bronze will become a slower bronze with a crappy economy.... fast bronzing on boom maps is pretty risky.... you wont find many people trying it on a map where they can boom...

3) 3v3 .... 3 enemies boom, your 2 allies boom but you dont.... enemy ships overpower yours 3 to 2 .... and you lose the sea, therefore losing the game.... ( this is more applicable to medit than cont though )

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 04-18-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 09:31 PM ET (US)     11 / 22       
Blackheart:
I wouldn't say "hoping", depending on the civ of course... I've seen shang, many times, do 12 minute bronze on an average land map. Assy and yam can usually do it in 14 minutes, whether they can do it faster is map-dependant.
 
Hmm, they pick berries to do a boat boom? I should post my old minoan strat, I could call it the "fastboom". It's not perfect, and neither am I, but it's another option on half-land/half-water maps like medit, conti and narrows.
 
A boom will not necessarily overpower a fast bronze. The fast bronzer has to use his initial advantage quickly though, otherwise he's toast. If you're fighting a boomer, don't just kill his villies: he can make more easily. Get his houses as well, and his docks. If you can slow down his economy to a crawl by killing his docks and villies, and halt his production of villies by crushing his houses, you may win. A heavy boat rush after a land-economy fast-bronze can seriously cripple a boomer as well. However, if you don't over-boom and still bronze fast enough, you'll catch up before the fast-bronzer can do much damage. Oh, and a wall can buy you some time too, which helps a lot against early rushes.
 
You don't always get a forest nearby. I, for one, usually get no forests within 50 tiles if I simply turn reveal off. It's weird but true. Still, you're right there's a lot more forests than berry patches.
 
From the definition you gave of a boom, if they can't find that first berry patch they're still in trouble. Can't find more land food? I find that unlikely, unless you're very picky. There's always more berries, elephants, gazelles, etc. Also, consider all the wood you're not spending on warboats to defend your fishing fleet. Fast bronzes are still viable, against players of a similar skill level. Maybe the fast bronzes simply have to adapt to the boom.
 
Dave:
A bronze rush is where you try to bronze as quickly as possible, to attack your opponent first with bronze age units. There isn't much a tool age army can do against a handful of cavalry, not to mention if he had no army.
 
A bronze boom is where you make many fishing boats, and get to tool later, but get to bronze still pretty fast and with a HUGE economy. If you don't bronze more than like a minute or 2 after a bronze rusher, and if you have a wall to slow him down, you'll slaughter him with your superior economy and equal units. Just make sure you don't get there too late.
 
You tool with 16 villies? That should be around 8 minutes. To achieve a faster bronze, make maybe 20 villies before tooling, and put as few as possible on wood early on. You should make up your mind on when you want to fight, if your attack will be in bronze then skip tool age military as much as possible. Do research military upgrades, but only once you're bronzing and only for the units you're going to use. Also build your stables or archeries while bronzing, not early in tool. You should have something like 24-28 villies when you start bronzing I think. I'm no expert at fast bronzes on land, others can probably give you better advice about how to do it.
 
If you're in bronze after a boom when a fast bronze rusher hits you, you're probably going to win. You're more vulnerable in tool age, which for your heavy boom may still be stone age. A late tool/early bronze attack against a boomer should focus on killing his wood, because he has more food than he can use. Destroy his houses, docks, storage pits, and also his other buildings, but those are the priority ones. Killing his villies in a tool rush is also good, but your main target should be wood not food unlike the old rushes.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 09:39 PM ET (US)     12 / 22       
well i know that my boom isnt the only one possible.... just this is the best one..... there is another where if you dont have berries, pit a forest 1st, and then dock... vills will come slow at 1st, but then things will happen fast..... i dont like this one, too risky...... i always get a berry patch so i dont have to worry about that anyway...........

and yeah i know a boomer wont always get back at a rusher.... one game i boomed while some dude fast bronzed , wrecked all my vills and killed my tc.... i was dead...... but i am looking at everything from a team perspective.... i assume the 2 other boomign teammates wouldn't hesitate to help out a dying ally...... and a fast bronzer with no economy would be dead against them...

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 11:17 PM ET (US)     13 / 22       
Blackheart:
Hmm, I'd say there isn't any best one. However, the berries-first boom is more stable than the straight-to-wood one, because it's more of a hybrid land/sea economy. However, with the wood-first approach and two docks with minoan, I used to consistantly bronze in 12 minutes, 16ish villies and 20ish boats, which is not bad. I was pretty vulnerable to tool rushes though, especially those that included a sea attack, so I wouldn't try this one against good players now unless I was in the pocket of a 3v3. However, in those conditions, a 12-minute fastboom could have its advantages...
 
Yes, it's a good idea to help your allies, but sadly many "experts" don't. They say "life isn't always fair" and let you die alone. Also most games aren't 3v1, and the other 2 boomers may be busy with the fast bronzer's allies who may have performed similar rushes...
 
However generally a boomer will beat a rusher if he's only 1 or 2 minutes late and walled. Walling is very important if you boom against good players, it can make the difference between victory and defeat. Compies and camels are good for a boomer's defenses, because if you have many buildings you can train an army very quickly.
 
Theory/question: Do you think broad swordsmen could be worth researching, as a wood-cheap anti-compie force? I know in my tests they used to (barely, 1 or 2 left) beat minoan compies 20 vs 20 with all the bronze upgrades for both, and I hear they can fight camels and STs pretty nicely too. Just a thought, which probably needs further research.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 00:12 AM ET (US)     14 / 22       
um... there is no way in hell 20 broadies can beat 20 compies......... if there was a matchup like that i bet at least 15 compies would be left standing...... all of em if it is mino compies....
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 00:56 AM ET (US)     15 / 22       
Blackheart:
I know it sounds incredible, but even after a few dozen tests the broad swordsmen won by 1 or 2 men most of the time. However, bronze shield is of extreme importance, otherwise they die too fast to be effective. Also, there were no obstacles or hills which again helped a lot. Oh, and broadies don't work at all vs CAs because of the higher hps.
 
How well do you think they would do 30 vs 25? That's equal resource cost, I won't mention pop because many players now always demand that the limit be raised to 200. *sigh*
 
Also, that was borderline... but consider massed roman broadies, think that might work? If they can beat compies, and since they have little fear of camels or cats, it could be pretty cool.
 
Still, it's just a theory until it's tested several times, which I can't do right now.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 01:20 AM ET (US)     16 / 22       
Dave:

One target time I have tried to watch is not the time I Bronze, but the time I had my initial Bronze army in enemy's town. This doesn't mean I don't make any millitary-defense before then. Walling/Towering and defending Tool attacks require time and military. My aim is 18 minutes for 6 CA's and more being built when I play Hittite, and my Yamato Calvary rush can happen alot sooner (2-3 minutes, sometimes 4 minutes sooner and still have strong economy). Very rarely will I make less than 15 villas in stone and like to stay around 20-25 villas + fishing boats (if map permits) for strong economy and respectably (not great-especially if land map and Hittite) Bronze time.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 02:26 AM ET (US)     17 / 22       
Wise thoughts, BlitzkreigComin. Watching when you have an army rather than when you bronze is a good idea. I don't quite agree with the part about the enemy town, since I've had much success defending the initial rush, but otherwise very good.
 
Around 16 villies in stone you say? I'll have to give that a try sometime. I was told minimum 24 before tooling, no wonder I don't do well with land (read: not wood-first) economies!
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 03:16 AM ET (US)     18 / 22       
wedsaz

You should agree with me about the enemy town because if enemy CA's run into my walls and my CA's run into his woodcutters, I like my chances with the outcome of the game.

I love to play opponents that like to defend their bases. "Friendly fire" ST kills amuse me, and watching my CA's die as they kill villas as enemy CA's kill them amuses me(if my villas are busy at work walled in back home). In fact, very few bad things can happen if I'm fighting an opponent in his base. Some cheesie cliche quote would apply here "I might not win the battle, but I will win the war."

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 03:34 AM ET (US)     19 / 22       
BlitzkreigComin:
Well, maybe we didn't have the same definition of "in the enemy town". I meant "on the enemy's side of the map", which isn't always the same thing as "among his villies".
 
Yes, letting the fighting go among your villies is very, very bad.
 
I usually force the battle to be at a chokepoint near a bunch of my military ranges, with a wall behind them. Being on my side of the map, the CA rushers feel confident that the game is won, but they lose swarm after swarm of CAs while I lose only a handful of compies. They don't realize they're losing until they see their wood counter hitting bottom while my compies calmly march towards their town. I'm not saying you wouldn't make that mistake, but many who claimed to be experts did. Sometimes, they even kept swarming me for several hours, and didn't stop until... they didn't have a tree left to cut. Then they finally lost.
 
So, my point is: just because you're fighting on the enemy side of the map doesn't necessarily mean you're winning. You win when you kill his economy, and sometimes you can do that at home.
 
Of course, the *fast* way to kill an enemy's economy is to kill his villies and boats... but it's not the *only* way.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 07:18 AM ET (US)     20 / 22       
A good way to improve: 1-) Go on the net and read some strats on a few RoR sites... 2-) Then, use a slow civ (Hitts-Egypt: no eco bonus) and try to do those times. You prolly won't be able after 20-40 tries... Change to Shangs for speed or Minos for booom. You'll see you improved alot.

If you wanna practice the boom, do this: Medit-No Rev, Large, 1v1 (with computer), Speed=2.0 (to make it a bit harder), Def ress, Def Age Start (Stone)... And get to 100 villies as fast as ya can and being in brz...A time under 19:00 is good.

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 11:35 AM ET (US)     21 / 22       
Reading the numerous responses, I think that a couple of mistakes that I was making was:

1) putting too many villies on wood too early. By the time I am in tool I have about 8 vils (maybe a little more) on wood and a surplus of 500w. I had figured that once in tool I'd go heavy on the farming and bring up the food store. There's only so far you can go with berry bushes (there's usually only one cluster nearby your tc) and hunting takes up too much micro-management time.

On an island or coastal map, I try to make 2 or 3 docks and fish like crazy - which is another reason why I need the wood.

Any suggestions on how many vils I should put on wood?

2) in tool making archeries and stables in anticipation of massing a big army after getting into bronze - which is also why I tried to amass lots of wood.

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 01:37 AM ET (US)     22 / 22       
Well...8 woodies is nothing ;-)

Hunting on any map is WAY better than farming...

For food, u do this: berries, docks (try to fish near the shore only...Deep sea fishing is too slow), hunting...

Farming: U farm when all good fishing is gone (or u can't fight on sea) or when all nearby food (hunting-berries) are gone. Farming is the slowest source of food...and more expensive... U should never farm (on a water map) before late brz age or Iron age... I personally almost never farm on water maps: if I do, then the ennemy can be happy cuz they played a good game :-)

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