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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Worst 5 Civs in RoR?
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Topic Subject:Worst 5 Civs in RoR?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-16-00 10:18 PM ET (US)         
With all the talk about the Top 5 Civs, I started wondering if there are "worst" civs out there. The more I thought about any bad civs, I kept choosing the ones I never play combined with the ones I never fear. They would include Choson, Persian, Greek, Babylonians, and Macedonians. Maybe this topic is worth a debate-maybe not. Is there a worst civ out there?
AuthorReplies:
Hyper
Clubman
posted 04-16-00 11:45 PM ET (US)     1 / 24       
in no particular order:
carth
greek
choson

civs like palmy and persia can be horrible or great depending on the map. Rome sucks in bronze (can tool rush and has great iron though)

yamato also basically scout rushes or dies

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 03:05 PM ET (US)     2 / 24       
It depends a great deal on the map and the players, of course. What civs do you usually play?
 
Here's my votes, assuming huge 2v2 RM medit defaults w/reveal:
1. Greek has no economic bonuses, and no significant military bonuses until iron.
2. Yamato were great in the time of AoE, but now as soon as the camels come out to play, it's game over.
3. Carth can survive bronze better than greeks, because they do have camels and impies... but still, they are slow and don't get anything very good until iron.
4. Choson is quite a porcupine with those towers that have the same range as stone throwers, they *can* survive bronze... but not easily. Again, not much good until iron although their swordsmen improve *very* fast once there. (hint: double-hps long swordsmen)
5. Babylon, although they can serve a useful role in a team strategy, is too slow to be much good on their own. Still, I remember some nice wall+tower tool rushes I did on some poor folks... (towers to slowly kill them, after walling them in so they can't relocate)
 
Without reveal, I would think some civs like palmy and persia probably lose quite a bit of power. Palmy needs to find a food source as quickly as possible to have an advantage, persia needs to find something to hunt to have an advantage. (even a few lions or gators will help!)
 
Mace is actually quite fearsome once they get compies. Why? Well, the only thing that can stop their hoplites in bronze is other hoplites... except if mace has compies to stop those. Enemy walled in? Half-cost stone throwers, also good to raze towns.
 
Persian, in the hands of a persian expert, can rather easily achieve sub-11 bronzes with a decent economy, train cavs, and proceed to help their opponents find the "resign" button. They're a civ largely overlooked by experts, sadly, but still I try to never underestimate a persian. Their iron isn't bad, IF the game doesn't end in early bronze...
 
I would say that, in RM, the one worst civ is greek. I mean, what do they have before iron? Not so much as an econ bonus to help them get there!
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 04:11 PM ET (US)     3 / 24       
worst civs....

1) carth - slow, sluggish civ.... because their 2 specialty units (ele and hopper) are very slow units.... so they can be converted easily, or simply killed before reaching the enemy units (hoppers killed by archers, eles killed by ballistas.... they have decent siege .... only missing the catapult upgrade but everything else intact .... crappy archers .... only an impie (at least better than greek tho) ... still, missing cat upgrade, chariots, and a decent archer, and having very vulnerable speciality units hurts them bad....

2) greek.... they have good economic and armor upgrades, good navy, good siege, decent cavalry, good hops.... but the most important thing - no archers.... not even an impie! yeesh.... only tool bowmen.... the only civ in the game .... and that bites....

3) choson - slow, gold dependant civ..... their towers, which save their ass big time, require mass stone mining, which makes them slower than they already are...... their army units (swordie, impie) are fragine..... these guys need to iron to survive.... in iron they get super strong legions, horse archers, and (unranged) helos.... they can tool rush in every game, since they will be reusing the barracks in next ages.... .but.... they still suck.... most civs will waste them easily....

imo these are the only civs that REALLY blow..... other civs, even though not as tough as civs like shang, mino, can still kick butt if used right....

for example persia - they get camels, h cavs, compies, horse archers, catapults(without aim unfortunately), super triremes, fast eles ..... they are a slow civ , but so is almost any other civ (hittite, summie, etc) ..... in hillz they are good, because their fast huntint makes for some good age times..... though not much hunting happens on boom maps so its not really applicable there....

babs.... only civ in game to have fully upgradable cats, along with chariot archers and compies, and horse archers.... combined with some super strong towers, walls, fast rejuvenating priests ... they have the biggest tech tree in the whole game .... why do some people say babs is a bad civ?

mace- cheap siege, super l.o.s. for unranged units, compies, hoppers that can take major punishment from archers and hand to hand units alike.... very fearsome civ....


only carth, greek, and choson really blow.... but even they can be used effectively to some degree (choson can kick butt.... but they simply cant defeat waves of helos w/ engineering).... anyway..... peace

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 04-17-2000).]

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-17-00 05:05 PM ET (US)     4 / 24       
Agreed, they'd have to be Greek, Choson, and Carthaginian (in that order).

Greek has no speed, no chariot, and no camel. Same with Choson, although they can at least put up a quasi-fight with super towers. Against bad non-chariot civs they can also do a priest flood. Carthaginian is also slow with a bad archery in Bronze. But at least they get the camel.

On land maps Palmy is the worst IMO. Very slow tool times and fat villagers that exhaust food like mad.

Persia can be great 10-20% of the time (which is still a huge improvement over Greek, Choson, and Carthaginian), but they are just another slow civ the rest of the time. With their horrible economy, they just can't afford to make any of the cool units they get, unlike other slow civs that get great militaries and great economies (compared to Persia).

Macedonian and Yamato pack a lot of punch in late bronze and mid-late tool respectively. Macedonian, if it can survive with its non-wheeled villagers, can make those composites and cheap STs like no tomorrow and just bulldoze the opponent. Yamato has great forward builders, the best early navy and a good bonus on a land unit, the scout. And if their rush is mildly successful, they can follow with cheap cavalry, the best early rush unit in Bronze even with the advent of the camel. The fact that both are gold civs and not that fast diminishes their power, however.

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 05:33 PM ET (US)     5 / 24       
Choson can actually survive pretty decently. Alocating a few vills to stone, and two to towering, they can make a nearly impossible to penetrate front. And your ST may be DA SHIT, but unless their Mace, sumi or Hittite, those towers will cause some paingage. And dat just sucks. And while your pounding their towers, their either breakign out with cheapo priests, baiting your ST in, or baiting your CA in. Or they may bust out with their own ST. Or Cav rush your ST, and if they have priests there, your camels can become their camels. and then, If they pull off a decent iron, before you iron, or even after you iron, provided you weren't 10-15 minutes faster to iron, their LS will SHRED anything in the bronze, 'cept for Hoppers. And your hoppers are there to be converted by their priests. They can quickly reach the legion upgrade(1400 food, 600 gold ain't *too* hard to get with 20+ farmers), then yer really hurtin.

Carthie and greek ARE loser civs. Carthie can fight in the bronze, If only cuz of camels. But they also have pyscho Hoppers. Those hoppers can take a beating(with bronze shield, it takes a CA 50 hits to kill a hopper. Hopper ar cheaper than CA. Ick. and since the stable is required for hoppers to be built, guess what a good player should be doin'? Making camels. Camels murder CA. In a 1.0 enviroment atleast. However, lack of economic bonuses hurts carth. Bad time. It don't make'em slow, but they just don't have an economy and their army is, well, slow.

Greece, well, their just up shits creek without a paddle, or a boat. They have NO decent option in bronze, 'cept for hoppies. And those suck. They won't make it to iron. And their just ****ed. Simple to realize.

Persia: Their decent, *IF* you hunt. You don't need exceptional spots to get a decent speed boost. Remember, only in mid-bronze is their economy weaker than yours. In tool and early bronze, their pretty much equel, and if played good, they stand a chance to hit bronze faster than you expect. However, Boat booming should be limited. 5-8 FB ain't too bad, and ain't too expensive, and you should get their worth before WG show up to ruin your day.

Mace: How can anyone say they suck? slow? Gold dependent? Their no slower than Hittite, and their much better on the military scene. nobody knows how to use Mace, thats all. And the wheel isn't as great a benefit as you make it out to be. If you use tactics, you can save villies without the wheel. And the wood cutting bonus isn't too big, since most of the time, mace shouldn't need too much wood.

Palmy: Thier damn good. Just use'em right, foo. Most people underestimate palmy. Stoopid mistake.

Now, abotu dependency: There is a civ in RoR/AoE that has a hideous dependence on one resource. It HAS to have this resource, or all its fancy power units, won't be made. This civilization is know as: Hittite.

Don't gimme this "wood is cheaper than gold BS". eah, it is cheaper, When the gold is gone. I've only run outta gold once or twice in the bronze age. Gold is simply common during the Bronze Age. Wood is common the whole game, but when your more concerned with the Now, than the Soon, which you should be, having a resource dependency like hittites is hideous.

Hittite can't Defend the sea and attack/defend on land effectively, unless It uses non wood land units. One reason, all things beign equel, Minoa is the perfect counter to hittite.

Wuzat
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 05:34 PM ET (US)     6 / 24       
wedsaz... most normal games by skilled players are 3v3 medit gig no reveal... i see why you spout bs all day long..
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 05:55 PM ET (US)     7 / 24       
hmm RG , im not sure i would putthose 3 civs in a particular order..... because they all have their good points ..... choson can start attacking early in the game, and reuse barracks in next ages.... greeks have full siege in iron .... carth can do a pretty good early bronze cav+camel attack, and their hops are hard to kill..... not hard like mace's but good nonetheless....

this is my opinion though... .and i hope im not trying to prove you wrong like wedsaz does to everyone...... if i am, smack me in the face so i dont go overboard

Kavil
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 05:56 PM ET (US)     8 / 24       
<sniff> The carthaginians are my favorite civ...<sniff, sniff> WAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!
Kavil
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 05:58 PM ET (US)     9 / 24       
Hey, i'll smack you just for fun! <SMACK!> (blackheart has a red welt across is face)
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 08:14 PM ET (US)     10 / 24       
Elijeh:
I agree with most of what you said up to persia. Again there, I still agree with most of what you say except limiting the boat boom. If there isn't gonna be much of a fight on the sea, I'll boat boom heavy with persia because boats are the only economic unit they can upgrade after tool, and you'll need all the food you can get if you want to make elephants later.
 
In reply to what you said about palmy: YEAH! GO PALMY! But RomanGladius is right about palmy on land maps though.
 
Sorry pal, but I have to support status quo about the hittites. They may be dependant on wood, but until late iron wood is everywhere, and can't easily be monopolized. Gold is not everywhere, and access to it can be blocked. Also, hittite warships beat minoan ones 20 vs 20, and their cats literally flatten compies. Hittite kills minoan, not the other way around.
 
Wuzat, what you said barely deserves an answer. Most "expert" games are from what I've seen on 1v1 small continental. Most "average player" games are 3v2 or 2v2 medit, gig or huge depending on the number of players, and I usually request reveal because I have poor luck with wood placement. Guess what? I'll even admit to not being perfect! I'm not very good at scouting.
 
BlackHeart:
Good point about choson and carth. Greek rarely gets to its iron though, and minoan/roman's siege isn't exactly useless either. Still, I once WON with greek+palmy vs hittite+persian, everyone experts. I'll let you try to imagine how, I hope you have as good a time figuring it out as I had playing it.
 
Oh, and I'd say I don't try to prove everyone wrong if I didn't fear you turning that against me. Seriously though, why would I correct an obviously wise and accurate statement? I argue with those that aren't necessarily true, sometimes knowing some little exceptions can help us make better strats and I want to find them, don't you? For example, in the cav rushing days where yamato was "obviously" better than assy, who could have imagined that 20 CAs beat 20 cavs when they lose 5 vs 5? Yes, sometimes I throw in theories and often forget to mark them as such. My goal is to find new strats, not defend the norm.
 
Sorry if I sometimes seem like I'm trying to make anyone look dumb. I meant no harm, I'm quite an error-prone clown myself, and I know it.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 10:26 PM ET (US)     11 / 24       
i'm not saying you are ALWAYS trying to prove everyone wrong... and kudos to you for keeping the conversation alive..... just please... dont post those things like "consistent sub 11 min bronzes" .... just stop ... i would like to keep the ror conversation with you and the others going, but not when i see stuff like i had 50 towers, and 10 times in a row sub 11 min bronze with persia, and 30 eles + ha army after ironing in 18 mins was it? u arent really impressing any of us experts, because we know that this stuff simply is not true.... and you aren't helping those new to the forums either ... you arent teaching anything based on facts, just theory ... and the rooks will never get good, thinking they can pull off a 30 elephant army after ironing in 18 mins.... hell, its hard enough to iron in 18 alone, without the army....

so once again i ask politely, cut the crap ... if you're gonna say something outrageous like (im repeating myself for the 10th time) consistent sub 11 bronzes with persia , please - get in a coop game with me, and prove it .... because not looking at how clever you appear and how good your grammar is, you seem like an expert-wannabe who knows unit stats, but not real strategies to which those stats apply.... so.... get in a game with me, and prove me wrong..... because every time you post one of your super achievements like 50 towers ..... it just pisses me off, since in my 3 years of playing i have never seen any of this happen....

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 04-17-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 00:15 AM ET (US)     12 / 24       
Blackheart:
Hehe, well I usually post my most extreme examples of things, since otherwise people usually just say "bah, who cares if you can do 13 minute bronzes with persia I do 11:30 with shang". (naturally not mentioning that was the best they could do on an edited map)
 
Ok, so I'll try to repeat this, no BS to impress the newbies-pretending-to-be-experts this time. I've done fast bronzes with persia, faster than the 14 minute bronze I've seen good yassy players do, about 90% of the time after the first 10 practice shots in single-player RM, and some were even as fast as 11 minutes when I got a good spot. The other 10% I was slow as hell because I have horrible luck with forests, I had tons of animals but no wood in sight. I had reveal on in all cases, which helped a lot with finding the animals in the first place without scaring them away. I used the free time my villies had, being stuffed with roasted gazelle, to chop wood near my (carefully placed near a forest) hunting pit, to start one of them lovely dock booms. By the time I bronzed, in very acceptable bronze-rush times, I had more than enough resources to fight the good fight. In the game where I ironed quickly and made eles and HAs, I was in the middle of a 3v3 on continental, so the seas were safe for my boats.
 
The 50 choson towers were no BS, but that was by about 24:00 when the egyptian ironed, and I had been going all out for stone, towering around stone as a priority since my strat was based on it. It probably slowed my iron, but the way the phoenician was going at me I would never have gotten there without the towers anyway. I still didn't get there, the persian got to iron and brought up triremes, and just my luck my *only* forest was near the water in a nice little strip, and my allies had been doing nothing the whole game. (don't you love finding out your 2 allies are still in tool while all 3 opponents are in iron?)
 
The 16 minute phoenie iron followed by an elephant rush is also no BS, and I did it many times, but only when the seas were safe. Of course, the opponent sorta gets delayed too if there's bronze fighting, considering all the resources a 3-dock phoenie boom can bring in. And plus, the boom is/was my specialty, more than half my games were either phoenie or minoan, especially before RoR.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 07:33 AM ET (US)     13 / 24       
experts ..... dont play reveal 1st of all..... never....

2nd whoever let you build 50 towers .... must have been an excellent player.....

and i boom, i boom a lot... 99% of games i play is cont.... and i always BOOM.... and i KNOW how much food a 3 dock fishing operation can bring in ..... definitely NOT enough for 30 eles after bronzing at 16 mins..... not even close to 3XXX food, after wasting 1000 right after bronzing..... and hell.... if you boom its hard enough to bronze slower than 15 ..... dont tell me you ironed in 16.... especially with the new phonie patch..... and if it was pre-patch, then why even mention it? their woodcutting bonus has been altered, never to be restored again..... so it doesnt really matter what one did with pho pre-patch.....

even so if it was pre-patch, there is still no way u could have gotten that much food after ironing in 16 ... ack .......

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 04-18-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 03:11 PM ET (US)     14 / 24       
Blackheart:
I know expert games are no-reveal, I was just mentioning I usually play with reveal in relaxed games because I have bad luck with forests when I don't. Namely I get none. I have no objection to playing noreveal, but on the zone if you insist on noreveal you'll have to wait long between games.
 
Whoever let me build 50 towers... doubled teamed on me starting in late tool... and never let go... but I was very hard to conquer... so I got to 50 towers and ironing. Another 2 minutes and I had choson longswords all over.
 
It *started* with 3 docks, before tooling. By 16 minutes I had over a dozen docks. In my (short) bronze I made multiple TCs and was pumping woodcutters like mad.
 
To iron that fast, you *must* boom. There is simply no other way to get that much resources so fast. Now no civ can iron that fast, and I think the next best boomins civ is palmy with their +36% woodcutting rate.
 
I know it sounds incredible, but I've done it. That's my specialty. I'm sure you did things yourself that nobody believes.
 
You can know how good you are by how often you get accused of cheating when you know you didn't.
 
This is getting boring, let's talk about something interesting.
Wuzat
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 07:04 PM ET (US)     15 / 24       
wedsaz- Expert games ARE noreveal DEFAULT RES 3v3 gig medit pre-aok. DaRq is an expert clan and this is one of only map types they used. No medium res crap, no revealed map, none of your cheats. 30 eles and a 16 iron is insane even on medium res. That would be an edited map with 500 fish spots right? ANGELS! We need you! Ban this madman!
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 07:20 PM ET (US)     16 / 24       
Even if I'm not a big Maceds fan myself or Babys, I gotta admit they aren't near the worst civs for sure. Maceds can tool rush (LOS) or brz (better to tool with 'em tho). Babys: they are like Hitts (exact same thing) except all the stupid military bonuses Hitts got (+4 range, +1 damage archers, double cats).

Worst civ has to be Caths...Greeks very near. Then, you see Choson. Those are the worst 3 RM civs on the common setts every "good players plays usually": RM, no rev, def ress, def start, hills-conti (are the 2 usuals maps).

Romz=they have a weak brz...true. Why you wanna wait in brz to attack with Romz? Romz are the safest civ there is in the game to tool rush with. Reason is simple: they need less Strags (trees near your TC...the ones at 75). You can put, on a berries start, 2 Granaries very fast and make 20 reals villies with 1 dock and a very fast tool rush.

Maceds:I hate their brz units (when I play as maceds I mean) and this civ can be considered a fast civ due to their extra LOS (line of sight).

Palmy: You gotta consider 'em one of the worst civs on Hills (for sure) for only 1 reason:they eat berries like mad!!! Also, only a good player can make 'em working: A good player cna do pretty well with 'em tho...aka: beating a Shangs with Palmy in 1v1 is possible if you know how to use those Palmy. Cuz Palmy used correctly are really hard to stop.

Persians: Their fast hunting can give 'em a pretty good tool time: prefect for a tool rush.

Summies and Egypts: I personally hate those 2 civs but I can't say they sux...This is only personnal perferences here. I think they instead of using those 2 civs (2 slow civs), you're in a better shape if you uses Hitts for example.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 10:47 PM ET (US)     17 / 24       
Wuzat:
I've done the 16 minute iron on the settings you stated, including noreveal. However, it can no longer be done because phoenie has been demolished by the latest patch.
 
I can still do a 12 minute bronze with minoan on those settings, though. As soon as I can play again I'll show you.
 
I don't play edited maps, I play default 2v2 or 3v3 huge or gig medit. For booms, reveal is optional. I'll try my palmy and persian starts on noreveal after I get my scouting skills up. Right now I couldn't find a forest with mace, nevermind finding berries with some other civ.
 
FYI, I played several games with members of the darq clan, including a 3v3 where I was the only non-darq.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 01:22 AM ET (US)     18 / 24       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
Why greeks better than carth? Carth has camels and impies in bronze, what does greek have? Before you tell me about how all of carth's units are slow, I'll mention they have horse archers. I'd say greeks, then carths, and then choson.
 
I'd add the possibility of persian making a bronze blitz with cavs. It's my opinion that they can get there pretty fast, if you get a decent spot.
 
On hills, I'd even name minoan as a poor civ choice. With their boat bonus useless, they're a slow civ with good compies they'll never get.
 
It may surprise you that I agree with the rest including palmy, assuming hills, highland or inland. Medit/conti is a totally different environment.
Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 10:18 PM ET (US)     19 / 24       
I strongly disagree with most people.

The worst for me are...

Roman- in the game they stink, they were way better in Real Life, opr their empire could not have lasted near as long.(around 745 Bc to 454ad, then from 454 to 1464ad.) The acual Rome like in the game (Iron) was around 100bc to 130 just a guess.

Egyptian- Horrible seige, their cariots can't go up agianst Greek seige.(They too were not as good as in real life, even agiast other bronze.)

Macedonian- Sure they are impossible to convert, but thats about it.

Babylonian- I just think so.(I don't like the Babylonians, and what I've heard of them )

Shang- I can't find my book, but I beleive they are the ones with war galleys and no triremes, so their barrack units have allot of heath...

Why I do not think the following are the worst...

Greek-empressive seige and towers, triremes will kill a Juggernuat in no time, the heavy cav is fast, and if you need something slow, they have Centurions,--- archers, a problem but those helipolis's make the differances.

Carthage- The only Latin civ with the Fire Galley. Below adverage seige, put those ballistas and helipolis's will take the Heavy Catapults out of commitsion, or the H.cav. Good Archer selection and Cav. yes many slow units, but I don't think the Heavy Cav. or camels or horse archers are slow.

Sure both are poor in bronze, but who intense on staying in bronze for the majority of the time??? and if you are attacked in bronze both have the cav. and the hoplite and the best towers and walls for bronze...

It's just my opinion, I will respect yours, please respect mine.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 10:53 PM ET (US)     20 / 24       
Caesar_Constintine:
I guess it depends on the settings and your playing style. From the list you gave I assume you play a lot of DM? Don't get me wrong, DM isn't bad but it's very different conditions.
 
Roman - Nice tower rush in tool, faster to bronze than "average" (greek) because of the cheap buildings, better chance of surviving bronze due to chariots and impies, and a decent iron being the only civ full siege and scythes.
 
Egyptian - Their chariots are quite good in bronze if you mix both types. Elephant archers can beat equal or slightly larger numbers of helepolii. Though there's some debate on this, I've had some success reducing large hordes of cats using priests, and egypt's are very good. Their big problem would be taking down towers, since they lack good cats, armored elephants and siegecraft.
 
Macedonian - A mixed macedonian army of hoppers, compies and STs is fearsome in bronze. You can't convert them, archers can't kill them, and your own hoplites die to their compies. Even walls can't stop them, with their half-cost siege. They are still a slow civ though, so you can get them in tool. They are also rather vulnerable to good helepolii, since they outrange even their cheap STs and they have little else to stop them with. Good complement to babylon.
 
Babylonian - Although unpopular, they do have some strengths. I've had some success tower rushing with them in tool. They have a full bronze, but they're slow and have no bonuses there. Their iron isn't entirely bad for those of us who play defensively, with their full heavy cats, double-hp ballista towers and good priests. You can also use their scythes, HA and legions but they aren't as strong as those of other civs. Good complement to mace.
 
Shang - They don't have triremes. Their only military bonus is double hp walls. However, their cheap villagers make them one of the fastest civs, and their full tool and bronze allows them to use that. Their iron isn't too shabby against a weakened opponent, with scythes, cataphracts, HHA, helos and a full temple.
 
Greek - A slow civ. Even if they do survive to bronze, they can't do much there because they lack chariots, camels and compies. It's unlikely for them to get to iron at all against good players on defaults. If you like greek in DM try mace and roman in RM.
 
Carth - Another slow civ, but at least they have camels and impies to help them through bronze. Their tough hoppers are of more use than greek's in bronze, they can at least be used to draw fire. I've seen one or 2 experts do well with them in RM, but I still wouldn't recommend them there because like greek they are unlikely to get to iron.
 
Cavs die to camels and CAs, hoplites die to compies and CAs or get converted, walls and towers fall rather quickly to stone throwers. Good players in RM make their main attack in bronze, if not in tool. Although greek and carth have a nice iron, it's very unlikely they'll get there at all in RM against good players. (although it's been seen)
 
The opinions expressed herein aren't mine, or anyone else's. There's nobody responsible for them so stop looking for one.
Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 11:43 AM ET (US)     21 / 24       
Yeah I play allot of DM, some RM on High Rescources.

I see what you mean, the fatal errors of the Carthage and Greeks are that they don't have chariots, and what are you susspost to do without chariots when gold runs out, use scouts? When I play them I just try to make the game not last that long.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 08:23 PM ET (US)     22 / 24       
Caesar_Constintine:
Actually, their problem is that archery dominates the bronze age, and they have poor archery. What archery units does greek have again?
 
Carth isn't quite as bad, they at least get improved bowmen.
 
Mace not only gets compies, but also archer-resistant hoplites. They are nearly invincible once they mix hoplites and compies, at least until the enemy gets the iron age units out. However, like greek and carth, they have no major economic bonuses so they are slow to get to compies, and are somewhat vulnerable until then. However, their extra LoS can make for a better axeman rush, and helps with early scouting.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 08:41 PM ET (US)     23 / 24       
on RM def ress, your greeks would never Iron: so they blows...Carths IS the worst RM def ress civ (except Palmy on Hills)...End of story.

This is when you play vs damn good players, you'll see those results...

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 09:10 PM ET (US)     24 / 24       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
I've played in a game with expert opponents, my ally was greek... not only did he iron, we also won. Anything can happen. I wouldn't recommend them for RM though, there's 15 better choices in RoR, 11 in AoE...
 
Carth is the 2nd worst: Greek is the 1st. Why? Carth can at least use camels and impies. Not great, but better than cavs and tool bowmen in bronze. I know an expert that plays a lot of carth, and he swears by them. I still wouldn't recommend them to our newbie friends, though, but they're better than greek if ever you're faced with that choice.
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