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Topic Subject:possible greek strat
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-03-00 04:54 PM ET (US)         
WARNING: this will sound somewhat insane, and is meant for 3v3 or 4v4 mediterranean or continental ONLY.
 
Ok, so here goes:
1. Tool asap. it's possible to tool in 7:00 with any civ if you stop making villies at 12. (Yes, I know that's a crappy economy but it's the fastest way to tool)
2. While tooling, send 2 guys to build docks and put everyone else on wood. I mean everyone, take them off berries and whatever. Maybe keep 1 guy to make houses for the fishing boats you make while tooling.
3. As soon as you reach tool, start making scout ships as fast as you can, and send them out right away to find the enemy docks and fishing fleets.
4. Send any new scout ships to the enemy, as soon as you make them. With the ultra-fast tool and the greek warboat speed, and by optimizing for warboats, you should be able to have 2-3 warboats at each enemy dock before they even reach tool. That means you'll have about 3 warboats shooting at any new warboat that comes out, and shooting up your enemy's precious fishing fleet while you wait, wasting tons of your enemy's wood.
5. Once the enemy docks are gone and you have 20-30 scout ships patrolling the shores, you can go bronze knowing you secured the seas for your allies. Good job.
 
What do you guys think? Is this insane enough to have a chance of working?
 
btw, I chose greek for this because of their warboat speed. No other civ could get to the enemy fishing fleets earlier, and get all those free shots.

[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 04-03-2000).]

AuthorReplies:
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-03-00 08:21 PM ET (US)     1 / 18       
This is insane.

Even with 10 cutters you won't be able to keep up constant warship production.

Let's assume a best case scenario: you tool in 7:00 (which is very hard to do on medit, btw), that means your first is created at 7:40. Now you have to go all the way to their dock. That takes a long time. Say 40 seconds.

Okay, great. We're at 8:20, you have ONE ship in enemy fishing. Big whoop. You kill 6 or 7 before he tools with your 2 SS (which is all you'll get with 10 choppers and non-Minoan boats). Enemy tools, has 25 or so woodchoppers and 3-4 docks. There goes the game...

Shang, Minoan, Yamato, and Hittite are better if you want to risk yourself on this crazy strat. Greek warships aren't much faster than regular warships.

I think I remember Methos doing something like this with Staffa back in UAT3...it was successful, but not enough I guess...but anyway, VERY hard to pull off right...you need just the right map and need to hit at just the right place at just the right time.

Tool blitzes are fun, but they rarely ever work. Then again, this would end the game earlier for the pitiful Greek, which might be a good thing

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 04-03-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-03-00 08:47 PM ET (US)     2 / 18       
10 villies on wood can get a bit over the 135w needed for a scout ship in about 25 seconds. They can maintain scout ship production from 1 dock.
 
Add more villies, and the woodcutting upgrade, and greek's doing good.
 
With 25 villies, you can't possibly reach tool before 9:20.
 
By then, greek can have 3 scout ships produced from one dock.
With the chopping greek did while tooling, and the extra wood greek gets from his new villagers, greek can build some from another dock so greek can have 6 scout ships waiting for the enemy's 2-3 warships.
 
Hittite and shang get no significant advantage here.
 
Greek has 30% faster warboats. That means you can scout for docks that much faster, and get reinforcements faster. That 40 seconds you mentioned turns into 30 seconds. If the distances to go over are greater, then greek's advantage gets greater.
 
Oh, and getting to tool in 7:00 is not all that hard if you stop at 12 villies with most of them on food. I can do it with any civ, even palmy. Hmm, actually maybe palmy would be better for this... they would arrive in tool (still 7:00) with the equivalent of 17 woodcutters instead of 12...
 
Oh, and that 7:00 tool is picking berries. Gazelles may be harder to use, and a bunch of shorefish would be especially good, but this strat isn't very map-dependant.
 
7:00 - start training scout ships from 2 docks, maybe 3 if you have 3 docks (spend the wood *now* get his fishing boats while you can)
7:40 - 2-3 warboats come out, go get his dock while training more. Maybe send the warboats searching in 2 different directions, find the dock(s) faster.
8:20 - 2-3 warboats reach enemy dock, new ones are built - send them over. By now you should have found the enemy docks, so cover them.
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-03-00 09:02 PM ET (US)     3 / 18       
Greek's boats aren't close to 30% faster.

Greek boats move at 2.0 tile/sec. Regular boats move at 1.7 tile/sec. That does not translate into 30%.

Besides, Shang will tool more than 10 seconds faster than Greek.

http://www.gamersx.com/aoe/tw-blitz.asp more info on tool blitzes. Risk outweighs reward most of the time.

And in a team game an ally could help your opponent (and wipe out your 10 villager economy too).

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 04-03-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-04-00 00:59 AM ET (US)     4 / 18       
The only civ that can tool faster than 7:00 with a normal spot is persian. Shang's speed advantage grows as more villagers are trained. A blitz doesn't make many villagers.
 
Taking control of the sea early can greatly outweigh the risks, because on medit maps the sea is everything. (well, almost)
 
Yes, an ally could help the opponent - but greek's allies can help him, too. Covering the enemy's docks before they can ever make warboats makes sea victory pretty likely. Boats don't do well at all 2v1 or 3v1. (hint: 2v1, 1 warboat is half-damaged and the enemy warboat is dead)
 
Greek is sacrificing all hope of bronze power by doing this blitz. Big deal, as if greek had much land power. Also, one advantage of this strat is that the enemy wouldn't expect greek to be very dangerous before iron.
 
After the enemy docks are covered, run some villies to between your 2 allies and start building there for an iron jump. Don't worry about having a slow bronze, let your allies take care of it... with the seas conquered, they are free to boat-boom and the enemy is landlocked. You can probably boat-boom too, to speed up your iron jump.
 
Oh btw, I've read all the articles on GX. I used to go there often, but in the past couple of months there hasn't been much happening there.
 
Last but not least, you're right about greek's warboat speed. Their speed advantage is only about 18%, so another civ would probably be better. Ah! Rome. Cheaper buildings and docks so you can spend the wood saved on warboats. Cheaper buildings are nice again when you relocate between your allies for your iron jump. Finally, a nice iron to jump to.
Hyper
Clubman
posted 04-04-00 03:24 PM ET (US)     5 / 18       
Maybe I'm missing something here... You hit tool at like 7 and can make at most 3 boats. I hit tool at 9 with 4 docks and 25 guys on wood, odds are I'll already have enough food for bronze... My 4 docks pump out SS and fight off your weaker econ. I hit bronze, upgrade my boats, you are dead now. Now instead of your 3 vs 2 or 2 vs 1 MY team has a 3 vs 2 or a 2 vs 1. Blitzing works better 1 vs 1 because if you destroy one person you win, in this case even if you take me out you've taken yourself out and the game remains even
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-04-00 05:45 PM ET (US)     6 / 18       
I re-calculated the woodcutting, and it seems to be pretty tight.
 
However, with palmy and their .76w/sec cutting rate it could work ok...
 
Your 4 docks pump out SS that each meet 2 SS when they come out. One of those 2 SS will get half-damaged, while yours will die. By the time you kill any, they will be replaced. Net result: You're spending twice as much wood (unless you're minoan, then you're spending about 40% more wood) and still can't keep sea control. Your fishing boom is dead, and you've got 25 villies chopping wood like mad to keep up with a 12 villie economy! Which is increasing twice as fast as yours. Before long, you'll be overwhelmed and it's game over. Oh, and don't count on bronzing from all that fish food: your fishing boats die whenever they try to bring back food. To sum it all up, you no fishing boats, and 25 villies chopping wood to fight a losing battle. Your only option: give up the sea. If you do, however, your "superior" minoan or other dock-boom economic bonuses are no longer valid. You're "just another slow civ" made slower by any resources you spent on docks, fishing boats, and fighting for the lost cause.
 
To get 25 villies by 7:20 (which is when you must start tooling to reach tool by 9:20) you have to maintain constant villie production. That means you picked an entire berry patch before tooling. You also had to make those 4 docks, and any fishing boats, so you don't really have much built-up economy. You'll have to pick berries again if you want to reach bronze.
 
As soon as your docks stop making warboats, palmy sends what would have been his "reinforcements" to help his ally on the other side of the boat war, thus outnumbering your ally as well. Before long, both you and your ally are off the sea and reduced to picking berries, while palmy's ally has a safe full-blown boom. In bronze, you'll have to farm for food because both your berry patches will be gone. This is starting to sound like a victory for palmy's boat blitz, I think.
 
Timing would be everything, of course. However, it can be done... I hope I get to play again soon, I really have to try this... (with palmy, not greek)
Wuzat
Clubman
posted 04-04-00 09:38 PM ET (US)     7 / 18       
LOL!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-04-00 09:51 PM ET (US)     8 / 18       
Is that lol yes, lol no, or lol maybe?
 
I know it's insane, but I'm looking for anything that could kill the minoan/hittite superboom.
 
Feel free to post your own ideas that might achieve that purpose. I can't wait to see them.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention palmy can also dock-boom once the sea is safe.
Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 04-05-00 02:21 AM ET (US)     9 / 18       
uggggg greek!! hehe the last random ror game i played was a 2 vs 2, i got greek!! and my allie got hittite

The enemies were both minoan!! on a coastal map!! I found a major crossing and put 2 slowwwww greek villies in one enemys' town early and had ideas to tool and wall the crossing asasp!!

uglyyyyy!! when he found both my fowards!! and the worseee!! I was walling the crossing when i saw a couple of enemy clubbies coming!! ahhhhhhh they bash the unfinished wall!!! ok i run more villies (lol greek runs!) and bash 6-7 clubbies. Then MORE clubbies show up & they have attack! & leather!! and i lose the crossing!! they become axers!! ahhhhh i run away cause axers keep coming!! 15 axers chopping my TC my allie walls me OUT of his crossing (omg!) i walled in a corner and make a new TC and chop & dock... i beg my allie for stone! hehe sorry to say this but greek SUCKS

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-07-00 10:26 PM ET (US)     10 / 18       
It actually isn't as crazy as it sounds, but using Minoan or Shang would be better for this strat. Greek tools slower than Shang, and the (very small) boat speed bonus does not make up for the difference in tool time. Minoan can pump more boats. Yamato can work too.

12 villies and a very quick tool blitz at sea can screw up a big boomer, however you have to hit at EXACTLY the right time...and you have to be VERY careful to tool at or around 7:00...or else. AND if you can't find your opponent's docks or get there fast enoguh (especially on gigantic as you talked about)...you're screwed. If you screw up somewhere along the way (can't tool fast enough, wildlife, can't find opponent's dock, he tools quickly, etc. etc. etc.) your rush fails. Finally, this is VERY predictable--look at score and achievements, watch villie production stop at 12. Then you pretty much know he either a) is a rook or b) is going to blitz you. If he's going to blitz you, do 20+5 or so villies. You will still tool fast enough to repel the attack, but will be way way ahead in economy. Your defending units can defend immediately after they are produced, but he has to make his ship, and then send it across the sea (which takes a very long time.) In general, tool blitzing on medit can be fun, but it's usually suicidal.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-08-00 01:31 AM ET (US)     11 / 18       
Yes, I agree greek isn't very good for this after all.
 
I think the civ's suitability for this can be resumed to their wood advantage:
shang - 120w (wood gained by having un-needed berry pickers on wood, and that's assuming no time lost moving over)
minoan - 240w (wood saved on the 6 warships needed to cover 3 docks, after that it becomes less important)
phoenie - 270w (even a small woodcutting bonus is a big help)
roman - 91w w/3 docks
persian - Varies, but if you can find a small pack of gazelles, a pair of elephants, or even a lion near a forest, you've got a nice speed boost right there. That extra time you can then apply to wood, like shang.
palmy - 600w (whoa!)
mace - No wood bonus, but fishing boats count as short-ranged units, so... It may be worth using a few to scout for the enemy docks while tooling.
 
In my experience, those who check the achievements often in online games, die. Yes, it gives you a bit more information... While your economy AND military are searching for the most efficient way to ruin your evening. (cutting past your defenses, petting the lions, not to mention running halfway across the map to chop that special tree preferably within sight of the enemy )
 
This strategy relies on the idea of having 2 scout ships at each enemy dock when his first scout ships are produced. If that's the case, then 6 scout ships at 3 enemy docks will kill 9. Add some reinforcements, and the sea is yours. The distance isn't such a big deal once you have numeric advantage.
 
1v1, I would say this is probably suicidal. As part of a mediterranean team strategy, having one outnumber an enemy on the sea right from the start could be a game-winning advantage.
 
Long liv... uhh, die the boat boom!
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-10-00 11:13 PM ET (US)     12 / 18       
Nah, Palmy sucks at this. They suck at tool rushing in general. They are just too horribly slow. Remember they are guaranteed villager lag AND each villager you take off for building takes away more % away from your economy (because they build at the same rate, but you have less villagers...doh). And 75 food villagers...you'll need to use more wood for secondary food sources to tool, because you'll be using more food for villagers.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-11-00 04:14 AM ET (US)     13 / 18       
RomanGladius:
1. Palmy doesn't suck at all forms of tool rushing. They can't easily afford to send one of their first few villies to go build in the enemy town, but they can scout rush and SS rush just fine because they can build those at home.
2. I get a 1 villager lag with palmy, between villie 5 and 6. After that, villagers flow out of that town center as well as shang's.
3. Yes, building takes villies away from palmy's economy, and they don't build faster than anyone else. However, palmy can have as many villies because they don't take 50% more time to train.
4. Secondary food sources to tool? That's why I usually tool with 12 villies with palmy, even 1 more villie means I'll need a second berry patch before tooling. However, I get to tool in 7:00 with an 18 villie economy; it's packed into 12 villies, but the resources are the same. If you do go for a 2nd berry patch, palmy can probably land-boom better than anyone because they can increase their economy faster. Palmy villies work about 40% faster, and cost 50% more, but train in the same amount of time... so it's like being able to train villies 50% faster.
 
Even if you cut palmy's advantage in half for this strat, it's still bigger than any other civs.
 
Palmy is at least as fast as roman and yassy. I just wish I could be as fast with assy as I am with palmy.
 
If you suck with palmy, then you should practice more. Palmy is a great civ, so maybe you just don't know how to play them.
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 04-12-00 09:32 PM ET (US)     14 / 18       
Palmy rules!! I almost always use them in a large wet map. They have a slow start, but a fast finish, and a sweet gold trading bonus. Plus, later in the game, 35 villies are a lot easier to control than 50, and that frees up more space for militia, without having to use cheap tactics like overqueing. Later in the game, I am working with less villies, good navy with flamers, armored eles, scythes, hha, broadies, good priests, good cats, compies, ca... Palmy rules.

(palmy can easily keep up with a fboat rush, or food boom.)

[This message has been edited by HonoredMule (edited 04-12-2000).]

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-13-00 10:49 PM ET (US)     15 / 18       
If you cut the Palmy bonus in half, they would really suck. Now, if you cut the villie cost down with the workrate bonus, they might be an okay civ to play on default resources.

Mule, you conveniently forget the vulnerability of Palmy to tool rushes. They're horribly slow to tool as I've said many times now.

Bronze is their best time, where they can use their economic bonus to its fullest extent. Of course, getting there alive is rather tricky. And they have a versatile army, but it isn't of much use most of the time, like Bab (who have the full bronze age tech tree as well..but who cares? they are too slow, and so is Palmy).

Also you conviently forget to mention their subpar Iron. Yes, subpar. They don't get craftsmanship or coinage, which basically makes all their villagers equal to other civs villagers. OK so they mine stone fast; so what? And their military, consisting of scythes without metallurgy, AE, weak priests, and HCats/ballistae lacking engineering is not enough to cut it most of the time. Let's see what civs in Iron can beat them: Choson, Bab, Hittite, Carth, Sumer, Roman, Greek, Minoan, maybe Assyrian. That's more than enough. Any civ with craftsmanship will have a big edge on them economically too, so they can just outproduce Palmy. Their navy is decent with the FG, but FGs cost gold and have a bad time trying to raze a defended shoreline (archers, towers, priests, siege make a mess out of them there). Besides, the sea war is usually over by the time you can make a FG.

Palmy's gold trade bonus is a joke. It barely helps at all, test it out. Put docks at the corner of the map and trade with a regular civ and then with Palmy.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-14-00 02:38 AM ET (US)     16 / 18       
RomanGladius:
When I said "cut palmy's bonus in half", I meant palmy's extra wood for this strat. I'm sorry if I didn't state this clearly enough.
 
Cutting their villie cost down to the workrate bonus, they'd cost 72f instead of 75f. Not a very big difference. The "+20% workrate" is actually +0.20, which when it's added to 0.45 is more like +44%. Yes, it's not as big on farming - but people usually aren't farming in stone age.
 
Palmy is not slow to tool. I've done 7:00 tool with them dozens of times, in real RM default games. No shorefish is needed, just an ordinary berry patch and a bit of skill handling villagers. They can maintain constant villager production, except for a 1 villie gap between the 5th and 6th. Not bad, for a "useless" civ. They can even bronze in 14 after a 7 minute tool, can you say the same for hittite? Or even yassy? I wouldn't argue if you said shang and minoan are faster, but palmy is far from being the slowest civ.
 
Tool is their best time, so they can trib to a faster or stronger ally to make a stronger bronze rush. Minoan can do great things in bronze with an extra 2k wood and 2k gold. It also spares you from the misunderstandings that sometimes happen when trying to double-team someone, since it's a single player making a HUGE army.
 
Palmy can bronze as fast if not faster than yassy. I bronze as fast as yassy with palmy 95% of the time, after a much faster tool, and with more resources and a large economy when I arrive. Palmy can use their wide bronze tech tree, believe me. Getting there is not tricky if you just wall in, giving you time to make a tool army if the enemy shows up. If he doesn't, then just head for bronze and prepare to make a large and diverse army.
 
Yes, I agree their iron age is sub-standard. However, their HHA are almost fully upgradeable, identical to sumerian's in fact. That's usually my mainstay with palmy in 3v3s where it occasionally gets to iron before my tribbed allies finish off the enemy. (usually I get writing just in time to witness the 3rd one testing his resign button)
 
Choson, bab, hittite, carth, sumer and greek won't make it to iron at all vs a good palmy player. I'd say they're about even with assy and shang. They can actuallly beat minoan in iron, even sub-standard scythes are hard for minoan to deal with. If he uses hoplites and cats, throw in scouts and watch his hoplites die with them. If he takes out the cats and goes hoplites+helepolii, bring out your own heavy cats. Palmy IS hard to get started, even I sweat a bit during the crucial first few minutes. After that, they're a good civ. So long as you don't get rushed in the first 2 minutes of the game, and handle your own villies VERY carefully for those few minutes, you'll do ok.
 
Palmy loses their wood advantage in iron, but RM games are usually over by then. They do *not* get outproduced, other civs merely catch up.
 
In real games you won't have docks at opposite corners of the map. Palmy gets much better trading rates on normal distances between allies for a huge medit. In my experience, I get so much gold from palmy trading I can pump HHAs from 20 archeries without doing any mining. Palmy doesn't need gold mines. Very convenient when you have a so-called "gold-dependant" minoan ally.
Lotus_Esprit_V8
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 05:27 PM ET (US)     17 / 18       
PALMY POWER YAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

------------------
Vladislav
Zone: _Lost_Atlantis_

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:01 PM ET (US)     18 / 18       
Dude, Greeks have some better strategies! I was one of the people who always tried to defend them. I figured out some nice strats, and if you are slightly better (must be better ) then your enemy, then you can really have some fun with Greeks.

The opponent thinks you are a rook, so he is relaxed. And then he dies. Hehe.. of course Greek has no chance on 1vs1s..

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