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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Palmy booming (!?!)
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Topic Subject:Palmy booming (!?!)
Ex_Rabbit
Inactive
posted 12-11-98 10:55 AM ET (US)         
Okay, I know there's been a lot of debate on palmy good/palmy bad. I wanted to concentrate on their ability to boom. 75 food per vil is a heck of a lot of food. blank posted a good message that tells you basically how to get a decent bronze time w/ 22+ real vils or so.

Here's my question. what about trying to bronze w/ more boats instead of real vils? I know this is a little insane, but 75 food compared to 50 wood/ship seems to be a good trade to me. Perhaps you could try the same basic start, except instead of making some 20 vils, make, say 16. first 7 peons or however many it takes to get a steady flow of peons going goes on first berries, then every one after that goes on wood. then, after the first pit is built, collect the 100 wood and drop the first dock and instead of building more vils, build more boats. I'd say you should be able to tool w/ plenty of boats, like maybe 10-15, giving you somewhere around 30 vil count. of course the first set of vils should get the second berries too, and docks should be dropped according to wood allotment.

I don't know about this. It was just an idea that was floating in my head when i started reading about palmy vils, and I thought i might just throw it out and see what kind of bashing i can take

Happy gaming,
Ex_Rabbit


AuthorReplies:
Ender
Guest
posted 12-11-98 12:25 PM ET (US)     1 / 23       
Problem with palmy boat boom is they will be the slowest civ in the game from getting the dock up. Since they get the dock later than others they start getting ships later, since they have the pause in villager production early they fall behind in villagers early. This all leads to a slow tool. Since they tool slowly they tend to lose the sea battles early, which in turn kills all their ships, which makes the boom unsuccessful. On top of that they made fewer villagers so now they are really screwed.

Palmy is best on maps like inland and highland IMO, where you can build some boats but not lose them immediately because everyone knows you'll build them. They suck on Hell country because everyone tool rushes on that map.


Ex_Akaval
Inactive
posted 12-25-98 12:46 PM ET (US)     2 / 23       
Palmy is not bad specialy on 3v3. Their vills work faster so the book says 20% I am not sure how that calculates but somewhere to 4palmy to 5 reg civ it is still 300 food to 250 food and less flexibility for palmy, but. Pretty strong point about palmy is thier trading late in the game when both side are out of gold thier bonus would really help, that is if they have control on the sea at or they have a big enough lake somewhere to trade.

I see Rabbit started the topic so decided to put something in, I am no expert on Palmy.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 02:38 PM ET (US)     3 / 23       
I've started to rethink the Palmy, mostly because I seem to get them in random a lot. The +.2 wood gathering (from .56 to .76/sec, a 36% increase!) makes a big difference in the dock first strat. Essentially, every three palmy woodcutters is a little better than 4 non-phoeny woodcutters. An example timeline:

At 0:20, you have 3 "locals" and and one guy headed for the shore. If you can find just 25 more food, you can build one more v. By 0:40, the 4th v pops out, my 3 locals have been able to return with some food (maybe a lion or gator) and the point man has started construction on a dock. All 4 locals grab the straggler trees. BTW, they chop as if they were 5.4 villagers. I am currently ahead of non-phoeny in wood collection. By 1:10, the next "local" appears. My 5 are the equivalent of 6.8 woodies, and if the stragglers hold out, I can wood pit. At around 1:30, my dock is done, a FB queues up and my dock builder makes a house. Around 1:50 my first boat is fishing, another one queued, and I almost have enough wood for the second dock without slowing the first docks production. It takes a little more than 3 Palmy woodcutters to support each dock. Somewhere around 2:10, the second dock begins, and I have 2 FBs. Shortly after 3:00, I have enough food for real villie # 7. 9 boats are required for non-stop v production, and I only have 7, so there is another 10-20 second lag between #7 and #8. Dock 3 can begin immediately upon completion of dock 2, but from then on, I can boom uninterrupted from TC and 3 docks until about the 7 minute mark, when I have to start saving food to click tool in the early 8's. I don't have to stop booming the boats, but I do have to find berries, or just set down a granary anywhere.

I have incurred a 2 minute v lag, or 6 v's, but still have accumulated at least 17 real v's (equivalent to 23 other civ woodchoppers) and have produced somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-45 boats, including 6 trade boats.

Food is usually setting at least 750 or so when tool completes (35 boats have a collection rate of around 300/minute, counting some travel time), and pulling all woodies to build tool bldgs lets you click Bronze by around 10:20, for a sub-13 bronze. Then power bronze and/or slingshot better civs to Iron with your free tribute.

Of course, when I am rushed there is a race to the sea, because that is where I have/can queue up 3-6 scount ships while running v's around non-stop.

The two parts of Palmy that bite: I can't really explore and wall with just one v, so the 2 v allocation really hits pretty hard. They don't explore 20% better, or build walls 20% better. Secondly, every v lost to lions or whatever is much more costly than to other civs, and they don't stand a chance against two lions, either.

Anyway, I've rambled on too long already.

Comments?


Keep your stick on the ice.

Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 03:05 PM ET (US)     4 / 23       
Palmy iron just blows though..they don't get enough to make any real cohesive fighting force. They also don't get the iron econ upgrades so they end up just at par with the other civs econ wise.

Their best bet is probably to fight it in bronze. I have trouble bronzing well with them though . I make too many damn villers.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 03:25 PM ET (US)     5 / 23       
I agree they don't really get anything special in Iron, 'cept they can whittle down stonepiles as fast as Babylonians can, and can tower the world. Even their priests are nothing to write home about. A few of their fast camels or scythes make short work of wandering seige weapons and priests. They lose almost all the economic advantages that they had, (They just get inferior versions of Coinage and Craftsmanship for free in Stone) and higher cost v's eliminate the advantages until Bronze, so they really have just the few minutes of Bronze to Iron time to enjoy their economic "dominance". They are probably doomed to loose the sea, unless partners w/ better navy help. That's why I usually stay in Bronze until I have helped partners with a real Iron presence become the dominant force. (Live vicariously watching the onslaught of your Hittite ally's half dozen types of superunits that *you* paid for... That's the best part of Reading for Palmy, IMO)


Keep your stick on the ice.

epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 01-06-99 04:06 PM ET (US)     6 / 23       
Thorfinn, you make 35 boats? I can safely tell you that's way too many in early game on any map. 10-20 is probably right. A good rule of thumb is to make 1 boat for each fish spot.

Try this, make only 15 boats instead of 35. You save 1000 wood. Use this 1000 wood to crank out 8 scout ships once you reach tool. You will own the sea. Simple question: your opponent makes 35 boats, you make 15 boats and 8 scout ships, who's going to win? :-)


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 05:17 PM ET (US)     7 / 23       
I understand 1000 wood is a lot, but have found that with 20 boats, I have to either wait too long for the bronze upgrade or start sacking my land-based food. 20 FBs will take a little under 4 minutes to get the 800 food for Bronze, and 35 FBs takes a little over 2, same as the tool upgrade. By not pulling woodcutters away, even the 135W for scout ships is trivial so I end up with a dozen or so SS somewhere between 12:00 or 13:00. By the time I'm Bronze I have to go clear to the center of the map for fish, so I don't much care if my fishing fleet gets sunk. By the time I lose those ships, have usually tribbed at least 4000 food and 2000 gold. That many ships also ties up the time of at least one player to deal with all my sea rats and their stinging cousins, meanwhile, with my economic support, my more militant allies are getting ready to do a tap dance on enemy bases.

BTW, in answer to the question you hinted at, no, I think I only build FBs while in Stone. There may be a few still queued up, I don't remember. I promise to pay attention next time. I usually have to wait 20 seconds or so after the Bronze click to get the wood to start building SS. (Four Tool Palmy woodcutters per dock keeps SS flowing nonstop)

You will note that I am not much of a military presence at this point. If a tranny of CAs showed up at before 11:00, I have to run everyone to the sea and wait for some scout ships.... cuz I won't have time to build 3 more stables. If they are coming by land, I *usually* have walls (or allies) in the way. By usually, I mean I had a great record until I missed a spot between trees 6 games *in* *a* *row* last week (Thanx for nothing, Max!)

But I'm willing to try smaller fleets again. I haven't actually tried a small fleet with a dock first start, come to think of it...


Keep your stick on the ice.

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 11:24 PM ET (US)     8 / 23       
Thorfinn !!! your palmy strategy has me completely in awe ! Just think..you take the one civ that needs 75 food for peons and tool in 10:10 and bronze in 12:40 w/17 super peons/35 boats and 6 trade boats and also have a dozen scout ships about that time. Absolutely amazing .. as long as you have enough wood. From what I read you are doing this on med maps. I have a few questions before I try this w/palmy and phoe which will be easier since I need less food. I also have to try this with Shang where obviously I can get more peons/less boats.
I see no need to be worried about losing the sea when you have and 12:40 bronze w/and amazing 12 scout ships ! You also need that huge number of boats to haul in that bronzing food.
1) You say you must put down a granary.. you don't need one to tool.. use docks/rax or docks /wood pit.
2) You may speed up the bronze if you place a granary by berries at the right time and you will want a market once you tool thus you need granary then.
3) 6 palmy trade boats ! You can even trade w/distant enemies early and get free scouting of their dock/fishing etc !
4) How much of each resource do you have when ironed at 12:40? You may be darn near ready to iron yourself ! Or you can get some more gold if needed as your boats should have brought in about the needed iron food.
Also you can simply put up GC then TC and crank out to about 30 real peons fast ! So many options. ... i am still in awe of those times/totals - neilkaz -


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 11:32 PM ET (US)     9 / 23       
Palmy gets lots of decent iron units.. can someone tell me how palmy iron is worse than Shang's. Both civ's have at least mediocre overall iron units and the ability to iron fast and strong. As we progress into iron shang can out boom palmy but palmy can gather as well as anyone else w/out the expenses of craftsmanship/coinage/and siegcraft. Shang doesn't get the last two so palmy can out gather shang in stone/gold per peon anyhow. .. just notconvinced palmy's iron is hopeless.. not the best but not hopeless IMO.. neilkaz


Messenger
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 01:21 AM ET (US)     10 / 23       
Thorfin

are u sure the time about your palmy boom is right?u sure it was def resource? if so i really like to watch u boom once.

i was trying your palmy dock first strat and there is no way i can put my 2nd dock up at 2:10...hell i couldn't even do it w/ shang.

laters


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-07-99 03:36 AM ET (US)     11 / 23       
i tried the palmy boom tonight because i got stuck w/ them in a random game...i tried to like the palmy the other time i played w/ them and i think they are a decent civ....but not to great...left alone palmy can build up big stock piles but a fast camel just doesnt cut it against other civs iron units....anyways the game lasted well over 4 hours and it was a non stop scythe chariot, chariot archer, and tireme battle....pretty intense game...it came down to a 3v2 and the other team held there ground amazingly well....well if anyone reads this post and knows shannonmarie......tell them they played an incredible game...


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 11:20 AM ET (US)     12 / 23       
Well palmy get inferior versions of the scythe and horse archer compared to shang. Those are probably the two most used iron age units for shang.

I don't think you can find a civ with a worse iron honestly. And I think everyone would agree that palmy has the worst tool. Just seems like a crappy civ to me :-). Tribute your teammates and hope they know how to play!


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 12:45 PM ET (US)     13 / 23       
Re: palmy vs Shang units in iron.. off course Shang scythe are better w/metallurgy. however I fail to agree the shang HA are better. I feel that the addition of 1 more AP ie 8 vs 7 from alchemy offsets having 9 range vs 10 for shang due to craftsmanship.
Palmy's navy is better as clearly you would prefer range 9 remes w/13 AP and FG's w/30 AP to range 10 galleys w/8AP and FG's w/24 AP. Clearly shang priests are better, but palmy priests aren't hopeless like minoa or hittite. Palmy's phalanx have the same AP as shangs hoplites but better armor. When it comes down to the all important siege workshop, palmy has Hcat w/13 range while Shang has hele's w/10 range. Shang's hele's can be useful vs weak siege civs, but vs good cat civs they are fodder... so it is unclear to me. Palmy gets ballistics while shang gets plow and irrigation.. I'd clearly prefer ballistics. Palmy also has siegcraft. Palmy has ballista towers although simply saving the food/stone and sticking to 7 AP guard towers is often best. Here's the biggy ! Shang gets a nearly useless phract upgrade while palmy gets WE and AE's ! Surely phants are priest bait, but palmy does have 13 range priests w/astrology and fanaticism to help convert them back. Palmy's fast camels if any are left over may add a bit. .. However, shang's main benefit in iron is the easy ability to get 80 real peons fast and have huge economy/army. I often play both civ's as feeders for hittites etc... and shang has so many reources that 25% tax only hurts some... as the game wears on that tax can take its toll and palmy trading is better of course... IMO if shang could be in iron w/palmy's units and tech and free trib.. shang would be a somewhat better civ !just my opinion that while palmy iron clearly is not tops it isn't worthless ! - neilkaz -


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 01:08 PM ET (US)     14 / 23       
I used to underuse SPs. A lot. My guys were having to walk 7 or more tiles w/wood b4 I would think about putting down another. Got to thinking that at 1.1 tiles/sec, 7 tiles (14 round trip) means 1/2 your time walking! You need twice the villies to keep up! Ive started putting new SPs at the forest line when they have to walk about 5. And you would be amazed how much that helps! Found that with 12 stone palmy v chopping, the 120 wood is *made up for* in under 20 seconds! Don't make your v walk!!!

Neilkaz, the market upgrades are too killer to miss. Tempted to try 2 markets so I can do wood/gold as soon as they are up, and wood/wheel as soon as I hit b... Haven't tried it yet.

Skip story if you want. But please jump to last paragraph.

Last night I teamed up w/ a hit & egy. G-med, 3v3, default, 150 limit. Let them know I was going to try major tribbing. I was pocket. Had a great start placing WP first in a forest choke point so close trees both directions. NO ONE on the seas! Asked H&E to build docks. Didn't notice my TT or BT, but clicked on B within about 15 sec of hitting T. Started booming FBs almost nonstop from 4 docks in T, 5 in B. Locusted gold from TCs. (Wow they mine fast for only B!) Both H & E sent "b" (short for bronze) in mid 14s. Looked at my res, 2500F, 2000G. A bunch of clicks later, I was 4000 res poorer, but immediately H sent "ij" (iron jump) and E sent "hsij" (holy s*i*, ij). At about 18, H sent "7ca,1st-7ha". (attackers-defenders) Moments later, "-13ha". E sends "lol". I kept tribbing all the while. I clicked iron at about 25, and got 3 cam and 3 ha down to 6, the last holdout, just prior to resign. Looked at my trib -- just under 13k! The rest of my game was not stellar, tho. 1 kill, 0 razings, 0 conversions. BTW, there were only about half a dozen fish left in the sea...

'Course Max and Simon_X did a great job of stopping the tool rush cold, letting me focus on econ, and then did a great job w/ sweep. You can't just *let* one player have the seas on a med map. Only pocket went Iron, and he shouldn't have...

Crossover from another thread, but I have been gaming with these guys quite a lot, and I think the chat shorthand is what Ender was asking about in an earlier thread about communication. If so, I will post a few of the other shorthand conventions we use. If not, never mind.


Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 01-07-99).]

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 03:45 PM ET (US)     15 / 23       
Tried about 30 starts. Unless I get a really sweet start, I just can't seem to beat a mid-13 bronze. One game I had 2 stragglers touching my center, another tree 1 tile away and 2 more at 3 tiles with berries just the other side of where I set my house down. (In that one, I was nuts to try the dock first as it was an ideal granary start, but what the hey, I'm just testing...) Still, that gave me 12:38 or thereabouts, without foraging any more than the first 3 berry trips. I did hit bronze rolling with about 1400 food and 600 gold and by low 15, was booming from 4 TCs (3 plus the original), had 3 cam, 1 ca and 8 wg. (Which is why I started the thread about today's rushers. Wanted to make sure what I needed for defense.)

About starting the second dock at 2:10, I must have been on drugs. Unless some of the trees on the edge of the forest happened to be stragglers?? Don't think that would make *that* much of a difference. (Chop almost 2x wood before you have 8 sec delay chopping down another tree... 8 sec is a little over 6 wood, so would take 7 such trees to make up that difference. But it would also keeps your walking down, and that would help a little. Sounds like a job for, Da-da-da! The Scenario Editor!) Or maybe one of my "woodies" was actually still getting berries. Woodies take a lot of micromanagement to keep them chopping close to the pit, and I hotkeyed docks 1 and SP 2, so I can bounce around quickly, so might not notice one free spirit. Got a few things to try out, I guess. (Ctrl-D locks up my machine, in case you were wondering.) Or maybe my SP was closer to the TC (every 14 squares away is equal to one more trip of wood. Just being 14 squares further would make a difference of 50 wood at this point. Maybe its a combination. The best I have been able to get of late is about 2:40, and only 31 boats and 16 v *before* tooling.

Incidentally, if I get a map with rivers (easily identified -- they have shallows in the central lake) it adds at least 1:30 to my time because they don't seem to have enough no-travel fish. I now have to figure out a plan "B" for this case because I did WP only. (Or even if it can be salvaged. Maybe you just have to take your lumps and be tool around 12 and be bronze by 14:30-15:30... Dunno. Sounds a little scary...) Going to go try some more.

Wish me luck!


Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 01-07-99).]

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 06:37 PM ET (US)     16 / 23       
Ran a whole gob of first 3 minutes. If it was obvious I wasn't going to make it in time, just started another. Wanted to prove to myself I wasn't dreaming...

Almost made it. Got dock 2 foundation placed at 2:13 without disrupting FB production, though the builder was still about 10 squares away. Ran into a lion (yes, just 1... hmmm) about 6 squares from TC right next to a forest. Killed the lion, placed the SP, harvested my 30 food and started chopping. There were 1 straggler within 1 of my TC, and 2 within a tile of my SP. If there had been just one more straggler, the 8 second time to drop the other forest tree would have made it 2:05. Without the stragglers, it would have been 2:37.

There are a few key factors here.
1. Don't underestimate the value of close stragglers. They shave off precious seconds.
2. Gotta be lucky enough to find food close. As said before, you only move 1.1/sec, and you have to make 3 trips.
3. And you have got to pit a close forest. Just pitting forest at 7 tiles instead of say a better location 10 away will trim 15 seconds.
4. Don't be tempted to try to walk to a forest 6 or 7 away. You won't be able to keep the wood supply to the 2 docks and build houses and won't get enough wood to pit until about 5:30 unless you forego 2+ boats. By then you are walking at least 8 or 9, and cuz they spread out, probably more like 10 or 11.

Obviously, these observations apply to anyone trying to cut wood harvesting time, but most notably to Palmys because they have faster harvest rate without increased carrying capacity, i.e., travel time with respect to cutting time makes for a higher overhead than any other civ.


Keep your stick on the ice.

Messenger
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 08:34 PM ET (US)     17 / 23       
thorfin

im interested to know how many times u can do it out of 10 games .


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 10:05 AM ET (US)     18 / 23       
Do what? Get the 2:10 second dock? I would say maybe 1 out of 50. A 2:40-2:50 is very realistic, though, and if you get a close (say 5 units) *PINE* forest to WP near, 2:20 is very do-able.

To be honest, I had never obsessed about tree harvesting until I saw the post about dock first, and thought that maybe that was the way to make Palmy tool fast enough to be playable. I really was only interested in trying to get Palmy playable cuz I seem to get them a lot in random civ... I still can't make dock first work unless my TC is within *2* tiles of a pine forest.

BTW, the reason I now specify pine forest is that 1/4 to 1/3 of the trees in a pine forest are 75 wood, as opposed to the rest of the forests which *only* have 40 wood trees. You can accumulate a lot of 8 second savings on that. Didn't notice that until last night. (Since I have been playing for, what two years, am a little embarrased to say that I just noticed it. Please someone tell me it wasn't that way in AoE. I am afraid to even look...)

Had an *abysmal* game last night. No close food, except for a few berries *completely* enclosed by cliffs, gold and stone. Plenty of trees, though. Anyone want to see it, I grabbed a screenshot. By the time I found food, SF with forest, was at about 4:00 and had lost 2 v to lions. Had to walk my new v about 50 tiles to get to the pit. Lost a few more v to scout ships before I was able to run from that site. Found a small inland lake (6 tiles) and pitted 3 gator to get the food to tool. Finally *tooled* with 6 v and 0 FB about 18:00! So essentially the game was 2v3, and my allies held out quite a while, and I was even able to bronze just before the 30:00 mark...


Keep your stick on the ice.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 11:35 PM ET (US)     19 / 23       
Hate to be the only one keeping this one alive. Anyone else have any luck? I just finished my second game tonight. One, a great start that bronzed at 12:27, the other, a poor start by anyone's measure still finished at 14:33. In the poor start, I pitted a forest at about 6 tiles, but didn't find food until 1:50 or so. It was technically at 15 tiles, but because of the cliff and forest, the closest path was about 27. (Read, a 50 second round trip). Took one trip back and went to chop. Got the second dock at 3:40 or so, and only went 2 docks that game. Still hit bronze with 1600 food, 900 wood and 900 gold, enough to kick out cam, ca, do the econ upgrades, build a couple more docks, get war galley, maybe iron jump, start major tribbing -- I had tons of options.

Anyway, a few more details might help. With a decent start, stop making villies at about 7:15. I find that makes enough food to click tool between 8:00 and 8:20. I target 8, btw, so I can tool by 10. Kinda late to *stop* a tool rush, but... If its a poor start, I take my chances and make villies til 8 or so and click on tool at about 8:45-9:00. Stop building boats about 50 seconds into the upgrade. This should give you 550-600 wood in the coffers by the time tool hits. Split your woodies into two equal groups and hotkey them 2 & 3 before tool. I number my docks 1 because Crtl-D locks up my computer. Anyway, to reduce it to a video game, click on TC and move window to near woodies and pick spots for your stables and market, preferably on the same screen. As soon as you hit tool,

3bm[click]2bl[click]1e[tab]eh

wait about 2 seconds (depending on your typing speed and accuracy) and click on bronze. To get your guys working again,

2[space][rt. click on trees]3[rt. click on trees]

Although you can't model the right click on trees, I recommend you pull up your word processor and practice that sequence until you can do it without error. Neatness counts. It took me probably 100 tries to get good at it, and I still flub it. Sometimes you have the 75 left for the woodcutting, sometimes not. GET IT. Anyway, that will make your tool age duration about 2:26 or so, and I don't think you can improve it much, since 2:20 is for the upgrade itself. In addition, you have 2 scout ships in 30 seconds and should queue up another 2 asap. I find that at this point with 2 docks my pop is only around 45-48, and about 16-18 are real villies.


Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 01-08-99).]

ULT_WiLD
Clubman
posted 01-10-99 08:57 PM ET (US)     20 / 23       
Without building boat can anyone get a bronze < 14:30 consistantly? And to the retard who said that the paly tool sux i submit to you that it is one of the best and can take any civ fairly easily(bit of trouble w/ shang for obvios reasons) rip apart any tool competitor. I can tool in 6-7 min w/ paly and roll in w/ 10 slingers and kill 5 housed seveal villager and their TC before 15 min


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-11-99 00:08 AM ET (US)     21 / 23       
Today I had palmy and not single tree within 8 tiles of my TC on giga med map. I built a granary for food which was about 11 tiles away.. but think I goofed and just should have instantly ran all my peons(after 1st house) to the sea inspite of giga map and the fact it would be a while before peon 6 would be born! The benefits of a wood/fishsweet spot would be huge then and overcome how slow I was do the walking all that wood back! Comments ? - neilkaz -


FWH_Foistie
Inactive
posted 01-12-99 09:37 AM ET (US)     22 / 23       
Well sorry guys, but I have a very definite feeling about Palmyr. I think that players like to try to play Palmyr because they are truly a unique challenge to play. Then I think it takes them awhile to figure out how bad this race truly is. Give me Greek any day.

This sentiment was first posted by Quicksend, I believe, but not quite sure. --FWH_Foistie


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-12-99 02:25 PM ET (US)     23 / 23       
FWH, I have to agree. On any map but Med, I don't think there are enough close fish to make them playable. And granary first is just certain to make you dead last to tool.

neilkaz, you *may* be able to make that work. I couldn't. The walking time on a gig map is just too much wasted time for me to overcome with a 75 cost villager. A 65 might be possible. I don't know.

Maps other than Med are death to Palmy, IMO. You can't get enough food to have a decent anything without boats, and Tool rushers barely have to break stride to utterly destroy your puny civ. It is getting to the point that I will only play random civ on a med map, because if you draw Palymra, you will just be your team's Anchor Lad, dragging your teammates down to a watery grave.

Just my opinion.


Keep your stick on the ice.

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