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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Villagers:How many?
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Topic Subject:Villagers:How many?
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Thanos
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 01:42 PM ET (US)         
I was reading a post and this guy said he builds 20 palmy villagers before he goes tool. I think thats crazy. Then again I am not the best player. What do some of you experts do?

Maybe you could break it down like this.This is what I do. Feel free to point out my mistakes
I usually play phoe
Until Tool
12 Villagers 6 Wood 4 Berries 2 hunting/building. Start building some boats usually have 4 . I tool around 10-11 minute mark.

Until Bronze
14 Villagers 6 wood 2 berries 4 hunting building 2 stone. 10 boats
Bronze about 14-16 min mark.

Thanks


AuthorReplies:
King Crash
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 02:29 PM ET (US)     1 / 31       
You are definitely going to get a lot of responses to this post but here are my thoughts:

If you bronze 14-16min with just 14 villagers and fishing boats in a normal water map, you will be in trouble. Even as Phonies I don't think you will have the wood to make enough galleys to protect your fishing boats, and then you are toast. If you do spend all your wood on galleys, you are then incredibly vulnerable over land.

This isn't to say you won't win some games - the caliber of players out there varies considerably. But even with a non-bonus civ like egypt, I can bronze in 14-16 minutes with 15 woodies, 3 on gold 2 doing other things, 10 fishing boats and a some scout ships.

My 2 cents.

KC


[This message has been edited by King Crash (edited 12-07-98).]

Thanos
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 02:36 PM ET (US)     2 / 31       
So your saying I should put most of my villagers on wood? How many villagers do you have before you go to the tool age? What about maps where the fishing is bad. What do you do then?


lucifer
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 02:42 PM ET (US)     3 / 31       
Why do you waste ressource on villagers! It costs 50 food! I usually make only one villager, it's easier to micromanage and so you have time to work out a decent strategy.

Just a question: How do you obtain these funky bowmen and horses?. I can only attak with axemen Can you give me the cheat codes to play with them.

My 0.02$

L.


Thanos
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 02:56 PM ET (US)     4 / 31       
Well if you don't want to be constructive or generous enough to give a fellow ROR player a little of your vast Stetgic knowledge. Then go post on a different thread.

My 2 cents ;-)


lucifer
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 03:11 PM ET (US)     5 / 31       
Ooops...sorry..I didn't want to offend you.

I'd like to help you but I'm really a poor player. But dont worry, I'm sure good'ol Jehu or Farsan will contribute. They are such nice guys (like all forummers!!!!)

L.


Janman516
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 03:29 PM ET (US)     6 / 31       
Thanos,

build all your villagers (real peons) before you press the tool upgrade. This way you put them to work for you as soon as possible.

Its basically the value of time. those two minutes of tool upgrade time translates to 6 (or slightly less) extra villagers working for an average of 1 minute. Thus you get 6 villager minutes of resources extra compared to waiting until you reach tool to produce those peons.

This amounts to about 160 food or 200 wood advantage (at .45 amd .55 per second)

Given the above, the amount of peons you build depends on your attacking plans.
12 real peons would be an outright tool blitz. 14 would be a more sustained but slower tool rush. 16-20 implies a bronze rush. Numbers above that are for booming strategies.

Janman516

Stooge_Farsan
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 03:30 PM ET (US)     7 / 31       
ROFL .....Lucifer, you are killing me and Jehu

Thanos,

How many villagers you have before tool is mainly depend on your strategy - you must have heard about Blitz, brush, rush and push - where the number of vills has been discussed in detail and the info you may find in www.gamer.com/aoe or here in AoE Heaven academy (I am not sure where you can find those archived becasue I read those in forums when it came out).

If you are going fast bronze, read "fast bronze" by NathanC and "Crappy bronze" by CD - those are in academy. Then you normally make 20-22 villagers.

If you like to boom - I can not remember who (Thump ?) and where you can read or if there is any new one for RoR - but I can say normally it is about 20-35 vills and 15-30 fish boats - I make about 24 vills and 15 boats, but not always and some boats are made during tool upgrading.

Anyway, 14 villagers seems too less in a normal game if you are not playing palmyrian - But again, everyone has their own way to do things, why not 14 vills if you feel confident with it :-)

my 0.0000000000002 cents (how many zero has I typed ? )


Stooge_Farsan

Ex_Rabbit
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 03:36 PM ET (US)     8 / 31       
I've made over 40 vils (43 I think it was) before with shang (boats and little naked men), and still had a bronze time of like 14:30 or something. Was a load of fun. when i hit bronze, I had something like 1400 food and 700 wood or something. had like 15 boats lol. I love shang.


Thanos
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 04:08 PM ET (US)     9 / 31       
Thanks for all the feedback. I am going to try some 20+ villager starts and see how it goes


Jehu
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 05:03 PM ET (US)     10 / 31       
Hi Thanos

The above posts are right. If you intend to do the bulk of your fighting in bronze and iron then you need more real villagers before tooling. I haven't tooled with less than 20 in a multi-player game in I don't know how long. I usually go with 22 villagers plus additional fishing boats.

I remember when I first started reading the fast bronze strats. I had a hard time believing that making more villagers would help me tool and bronze faster. After all, villagers cost food, and food is what you need to tool and bronze. It makes all the difference in the world. But be warned, what you do with those villagers is the key to bronzing at a decent time and having the resources to fight effectively as soon as you get there.

One of the biggest mistakes made by newer, or less successful players on the zone is they don't make enough villagers in stone.

Lucifer

You are evil.

Jehu


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 05:21 PM ET (US)     11 / 31       
Well this is a tough one to answer. But I will try my best. I think I have to agree with lucifer on this one, vills are a waste of food and one vill is enough, because just typing pepperoni pizza works fine for me. jk

actually tho I would never build only 14-16 before tooling unless im tool rushing

The difference between building about 25 villagers before tooling is that you will bronze about one minute faster, but I will bronze twice as strong. While your cavalry at tapping at my walls, you are struggling to gain an economical advantage, meanwhile I can probably raid your village and iron.

I much prefer a strong mediocre bronze, walled in, to a weak fast bronze, with my units running into his walls.

IMHO

Oh yeah by the way with palmy I normally build about 20 vills before tooling on some of the maps(water maps). Then I just boat boom until I actually reach tool, cause then I need to focus on defending and attacking other's ships. A common error is to attack land units only, and not attack fish ships. Hitting an opponants unguarded fishing ships is much easier and much less resource devoting than rushing with minimal resources to the next age.

A 14 min bronze, from what I have seen, is now considered fast when playing a slow civ on default resources. This is probably changed because of the decrease in Shore Fishing rates.

Thats all I have to say for now...


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 07:07 PM ET (US)     12 / 31       
I had to respond to this thread as someone who loves to tool rush. It is a common misperception that to successfully tool rush you need to go with something like 16 villagers, I really disagree with this strat. If you tool rush with 16 villagers you better know exactly where your enemy is and have a defensive position against any other players because you basically take yourself out of the game. With this many villagers you are looking at an 18+ min bronze and you will be really weak, not just typical tool rush weak, when you get there. Tool rushing with 20 is typically what I like to do with the goal of killing at least six peons and getting the enemy running around so i get the initiative. If i feel I can finish someone off because of significant control over an enemies wood I will build enough axers (what i've been tool rushing with lately) to take out a TC.

By the way, I think its really funny how axers, the former laughingstock of AOE are now a decent unit, were we all just ignorant back then???

So in case you don't get he picture, unless you are going with palmy or have an unmolested ability to boat fish (THIS IS RARE) you better be good to go with less than 18-20 to tool.


[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 12-07-98).]

The Peon
Inactive
posted 12-07-98 07:28 PM ET (US)     13 / 31       
I usuall tool w/ 20

12-14 on food
6 on wood
1 on gold
1 on stone (sometimes)

I bronze w/ same # of villagers, but get up to 30 in brozne


The Peon

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 10:19 PM ET (US)     14 / 31       
ahh, Rabbit stop bragging you know you lied J/K

Um, what i do is i build around 17-20 vills before tool, and when i get to tool i dont build anymore villagers until i hit bronze. Not very good though, looking for some Co-Op games to learn more.

Recently i started playing on Mediteranean map and i get like 10-12 villagers on wood and build about 15 fishing boats ( i have like 6-8 villagers on food tool ), it works great until the enemy comes in with his little galleys.

Any suggestions for me? (once again i am too lazy to read these prevous posts)


FanatiC KaBaN

i am the ruler of the rule of all the rules who ever made the rule about the rules


[This message has been edited by FanatiC KaBaN (edited 12-07-98).]

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 12-07-98 11:13 PM ET (US)     15 / 31       
Here is what are my pratices:

For a tool rush, I do 14 vils. I do that when I know where my opponent is.

For my standard bronze rush, I do 20 vils before tooling. 20 is a good number a think, 4 houses = 20 vils allowed. Yep, this little 30 wood for a fifth house is sometime annoying me! It can be convenient to delay an expense of 30 wood+ressource gathering for 2 little minutes...

For a villager Booming (or a powerup), I Do aroung 24 villies + as many boats as I can...

In Aoe, I hit the tool button in average at 13:00 with a fast civ and around 14-14:30 with a slow civ... Sometimes I do must better or much worst, but that's an average... About RoR, I do not know. I heard that people are tool rushing lots more...



Ender
Guest
posted 12-08-98 07:09 AM ET (US)     16 / 31       
For a tool rush I do 20 villagers + about 6 boats on the way to tool. For a bronze rush I do about 24 villagers with about 10 fishing boats and try to bronze at 13-15 minutes. For a strong bronze I usually bronze with 28 villagers and 20-30 fishing boats and bronze at 15-17 minutes.

The most general answer is keep building villagers every chance you can unless you are upgrading an age, or you are at the pop limit. In 125 pop limit games I shoot for around 40-60 real villagers and 15-30 fishing boats.


xShahx
Inactive
posted 12-08-98 12:44 PM ET (US)     17 / 31       
I used to make some 30 vill with phoenicians and some 20 boats. (extreme isnt it?) i bronze somewhere around 18-20min ironed in 25. i was always amazed how much food i collected by iron! 4000-5000. then people started that 14 min bronze . i changed my ways and now i use the 20 vill strategy. now that i look back on that strategy its rideculious but it was fun. Every one can read how to do the 20 vill strategy now. but the real experts are those who use their talents in bronze and iron. apparently jehu and farsan are experts, lol! u know some ones good when theyre modest.

my opinion


Thanos
Clubman
posted 12-08-98 01:01 PM ET (US)     18 / 31       
Well I played last nite with 20 vils. 3 Team 3vs3 games. We won all three. 2 of the games I had high score. I went bronze 16:00-18:00 minutes. I still need some improvement but I was strong when I became bronze. Something I wasn't with the 12-14 villagers. In every game I tooled before anyone else and almost always bronzed first. Is it harder to bronze in RoR? I can't recall anyone ever bronzing under 14-15 minutes. Shang probably can. Not many games I join allow them.

anyway thanks for all the post and hope to kick your butt in the zone


Josh the Great
Clubman
posted 12-08-98 10:23 PM ET (US)     19 / 31       
Wow! What a lot of villagers. I've had that many villagers before but I've tooled with only about 10 . I'll try that!

Slightly off topic but whilst we are talking about going bronze fast, I don't like spending much time in the tool age. In fact, I like to build, upgrade armour and then advance real quick. I don't really know why but it's just that gut feeling that in that black, unchartered corner off the map there is a fleet of Helipolis waiting for me BTW: The abbreviation helios was used earlier - does that mean helipolis?

Josh the Great


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 12-08-98 10:40 PM ET (US)     20 / 31       
Thanos, I hope I don't offend you, but bronzing at 16-18 can be fatal vs a tool or bronze rusher. Good players can Bronze not only Shang but Phoe, Yam, Assy under 12 minutes with an ideal map, and get 13 easily if they have a decent setup and the inclination to do so. I am talking 1.0 speed here, but the times aren't much worse on 1.5
.. also these same games feature tool times of 8ish w/20 peons, w/24 you can still tool just after 9 and strive to tool by 10.
What's my point? So many of my 1v1's and 2v2's lately are ending up w/my opponent(s)
having 20-24 dead peons between 13-15 and about 8 -10 boats, in the process of sinking.... why? Because, the average guy had become too infatuated w/BOOMING.. what is happening is that they search around too much for that perfect spot, often falling behind in the peon count, then they stress wood at the expence of food and tool late..like 12 but with boats.. but still lacking food and or/wood to bronze immediately ! Thus they bronze at 16 or 17.
All this leaves them OK if unmolested. However, you can't wall in stone and you can't build anything to stop a decent camel/cav or CA's rush in tool except walls..not to mention he may trannie in or ST your walls, if his troops don't crack em.
What I am saying is practice w/the computer, and make sure you tool by 9 and bronze by 13 w/Shang and 9:30 and 13:30 -14;00 w/the better other civ's. Shang can do 20-24 peons, but make sure you have food if you want to go more than 20 w/other races. Don't stress early boats so much. It's nice to have one up to pump fish boast during the bronze transition and by then you probably can suppport it... get what youm need to bronze faster. Then you won't be tool or bronze rush bait ! the next step then will be to learn to bronze in 14 w/24 peons and boats and off course a great economy !Practice ! Practice ! Practice ! - neilkaz -


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 12-09-98 12:20 PM ET (US)     21 / 31       
In response to the posts regarding the necessity of a 14 minute bronze time I whole heartedly disagree. While you can't completely loaf it to bronze you can typically, by looking a the score and achievements, get an idea around the 10-12 minute mark what your oppponent is doing. Those three mins are typically enouh time to make a decision whether to keep loafing it to bronze or get it done quick (build the buildings). I have come full circle on my thoughts on this and now typically bronze in 16-17 mins with 25+ peons and at least 5 boats with a token tool rush to lock in to an opponent. While the 14 minute bronze time is not overrated in absolute terms I feel strongly that the power bronze is far superior. In 1 v 1 I will tool rush regardless if I can find the enemy.

If your losing because you can't reach bronze fast look first at your walling and second at your micromanagement of villagers. Are you wasting the extra time you are taking to bronze? The point is, don't be slow for the sake of it. Be slow so that when you reach bronze you can pump out bronze units from at least 3 buildings continuosly while upgrading those units.


[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 12-09-98).]

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 12-09-98).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 12-09-98 08:01 PM ET (US)     22 / 31       
My point is simply that way too many IMO guys are now tooling around 12 or 13... maybe I am wrong but I hit a guy with a peon
count of 37(peons/boats) with the beginings of my bronze rush at 13 flat.( OK I was Shang,, great spot and did 11:30 w/20 peons)
The guy was still in stone... though he was tooled about 30 sec later. What carnage !
Guys are also tooling in 12-13 and bronzing in 16-18 with out any walls... NoSoup your a very good player and you can tell form score/achievements what's going on usually.. but many can't ! My point is simply that the majority would be better off learning to speed up a bit and then later in the learning process start adding more a more peons/boats etc while still trying to do advance to tool/bronze fast.
Re: 1v1 I too will tool attack most games..and it is very hard to stop a good scout rush if you haven't even clicked the tool upgrade by the moment the ponies show up.
Most importantly.. even the best players need to practice their starts and fast attacks vs the computer. No don't mess with killing, but do see how fast you can get 4 upgraded scout beating on its peons...etc
Also see fast and with how much resources you can bronze using various strats.
- neilkaz -


orangepanther
Clubman
posted 12-09-98 08:53 PM ET (US)     23 / 31       
I have to agree that in ror evrybody thinking that strong economy is better that fast bronze, even on a large map 1v1.I had been devastated by bronze rushes in 14-15 just because i bronzed with more vil in expense of time.Now i learend that good bronze rush on a large map is devastating with 20-24 vil econmomy in 14-15 min,then good economy 30-40 vil and 16-18 bronze.I might get more vils if water is avalable +5-10 boats.Which doenst really slow me down


Even when you lose,you gain more than somebody who didnt fought at all.

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 12-09-98 09:27 PM ET (US)     24 / 31       
Neilkaz,

Actually you make a good point which I should have clarified. I also know I'm going to take a bit of heat for this strat because I give up resource gathering. While I power bronze in 17 mins (usually with a token tool rush) I am almost always first to tool in non-rated team games. While I am then later to bronze I am apparently making more of my villagers between tool and bronze than most players (sometimes up to 8 more), something many players apparently don't do. A couple of things about this strat of tooling with 20 villagers (instead of more):

ADVANTAGES

1) You can tool rush. Like Neilkaz has pointed out if your tooling in 12-13 mins you are WIDE open.

2) You have an extra min or two before an enemy tool rushes you too wall in. Of course this does not help you if the enemy has built buildings inside your perimiter, DON'T let that happen, watch the screen, space houses etc. I have always been relatively good at finding enemy tool rush buildings, think like an attacker, where would you put yours??

DISADVANTAGES

1) Lost resource gathering. A villager built before the age upgrade will chop more wood or collect more food. This is a significant loss. Of interest, almost all ROR tournament winners tooled AFTER the loser. This may be a function of just good players but certainly something to give pause.

ONE OTHER NOTE: Since I don't think that I am necessarily tooling with many more villagers than other players I really think the tool time advantage is coming from a choice to pit first. While I may have an early delay on villagers 7-10, the more efficient wood gathering (I always look for forest) over the full 17 leads to more wood (Fishing boats) or if the same wood, less woodcutter which means more food gatherers. Players can argue collection rates all day long but if your first 16 peons walk less they work more. Somehow I think that is what is working for me (along with not tooling with 24-28).

Anyway good point Neilkaz and I hope this clarifies my earlier post.


[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 12-09-98).]

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 12-09-98).]

Abraxas
Inactive
posted 12-10-98 01:37 AM ET (US)     25 / 31       
Well heres my story sad but true and its not about a girl that I once knew. Rather its about why I'm trying to work out a team combo that can compete with Shang. Ok, its 2 vs 2, Med, my parter is Phoeny, I'm Minoan. Opponents are Shang and Roman. I'm nervous about the Shang, so I make only 18-19 (numbers approximate I can't remember exactly)real vils, but Im boat booming and raking in the fish. Shortly after 9 I hit the tool upgrade and start breaking up my wood cutters, so they don't all die in one spot if I get blitzed. I feel I'm having a great start. Just before 10, 2 Shang clubmen find my woodies and I still have about 8 there. God help me, I laughed.
Chat:
Me: Hehehe, he's sent 2 clubbies.
Partner: Shang?
Me: Ye
I bone the two, and move all my woodies to another wood pit and start looking for another place to wood pit again. I make tool. Crank out scouts to guard my boats and to go find the enemys fishing boats. I hear the battle alarm.
Me: Oh shit...
Now 6-8 clubmen are at my woodies again. In seconds they turn to axemen. In no time at all I have 4 scouts (ponies) all over my town. By 11 something I had only 2 villagers left lost to the scouts, axemen and bowmen and slingers who joined them.
Me: Im tributing you food...
Partner: Geez, I'm fast, but I'm not THAT fast.
I did own the sea though . So I agree you need to tool fast, wall up and only then worry about booming, (I used to think just spreading out early would be good enough, but now most Shang players know to use ponies) either that or play Shang, sigh.


Abraxas


[This message has been edited by Abraxas (edited 12-10-98).]

[This message has been edited by Abraxas (edited 12-10-98).]

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