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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Which civ 'really' has the best CA . . . really?
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Topic Subject:Which civ 'really' has the best CA . . . really?
AxemanJim
Inactive
posted 08-29-99 04:46 AM ET (US)         
I have compiled some amazing/confusing statistics about chariot archers in AOE/ROR that proves . . .
1) There is an AOE civ conspiracy
2) I am bored and need to get a life
3) All of the above

I went into the scenario editor and had a chariot archer attack an enemy house. I tried it 3 different ways - once with each of these civs:

- Assyrian (supposed to have increased fire rate)
- Hittie (archery units supposed to have +1 attack)
- Another normal civ.

Guess what? The results came out almost the same:

- Assyrian = destroys house in 2 minutes 17 seconds
- Hittie = destroys house in 2 minutes 18 seconds
- Normal civ. = destroys house in 2 minutes 20 seconds

So, it turns out that the CA attacks the same in any civ. The results came out similarly when I attacked an enemy CA - the Hittite and Assyrian civ didnt kill the enemy CA any faster than a normal civ.

Another interesting test that I did proving that the "alchemy upgrade" DOES work. My CA kills another CA in 19 shots without alchemy and 14 shots with alchemy.

So does anybody have any answers as to why the Hittite and Assyrian archery bonuses appear to be bogus? Im interested in hearing your thoughts. Unless one of you says something to change my mind - this is going to influence how I pick my civs from now on. Im also making Alchemy my first Iron upgrade.

--AxemanJim

AuthorReplies:
SoulArcher
Clubman
posted 08-29-99 05:10 AM ET (US)     1 / 28       
For one attacking houses is an inaccurate way to portray a unit's effectiveness. Assy DOES have the best chariot archer until Hittie gets Nobility (Then Alchemy later). LOL, and you just proved something for Hittie with that alchemy test. Hittie gest +1 archer naturally, and Alchemy gives +1 damage. it's the same thing but guess what Hittie doesn't have to pay for it AND they get it in bronze. your that's right you 14 shot kill test applies to Hittie in BRONZE. Plus when Hittie hits Iron they get alchemy too, that's +2 damage for Hittie archer. Simple math shows that Hittie CA does 20% more damage to units than a regular CA. Assy CA is suppose to have 33%ish faster shooting but i'm not sure so that means w/o upgrades Assy should win. Oh and I forgot to tell ya why attacking houses doesn't work. All buildings naturally absorb all but 1/4 of damage. so when you tested the hittie attacking, they do nearly the same damage to the house. (4/4 is 1 damage per shot, 5/4 is 1 and spare change, I don't think AOE/ROR counts left overs...) I don't know why the Assy one came up so low, unless ya tested it wrong somehow. If ya like alchemy don't pick Assy, they don't even get Alchemy.
AxemanJim
Inactive
posted 08-29-99 05:22 AM ET (US)     2 / 28       
Yes, but you missed some of what I wrote in the original post. I tested it not only by attacking a house but also by attacking another (enemy) CA. The Hittite and Assyrian archery bonuses comes out bogus. Try it for yourself - go into the scenario editor and attack an enemy CA with your hittite or assyrian CA - you'll both die at the same time. No advantage to the Hittite or Assyrian at all. Scary, I wonder what else in the game doesnt work as advertised. Im going to move my computer into the bathroom so I have more time to try these kind of tests :-)
SoulArcher
Clubman
posted 08-29-99 05:57 AM ET (US)     3 / 28       
I don't see how Hittie does worse than a CA with Alchemy when it's the same advantage If you can give me a logical explanation WHY +1 attack isn't the same as +1 attack i'll believe you. LOL

In fact I took your challenge. I matched 1 Assy vs 1 Shang (Shang cause nothing special) ALL 3 times Assy won, first two times with 18 HP left (5 more arrows) and the last time with 12 (4). Hittie came up similar, 1 hittie vs. 1 Shang. Hittie won all 3, first time with 14 HP, second with 18, third with 14. Now just to show how this is compounded by higher numbers. 10 Assy vs. 10 Shang. Assy won with 5 left, 3 COMPLETELY untouched, and 2 with about half. Same test run with Hittie vs. Shang. 4 were left with 2 unhurt, 1 about half, and the last one with only like 14-18 left. their advantages are not bogus at all. Here are a few ways you could've messed up:

- You controlled the Assy/Hittie, the computer is MUCH better at hit and run than we are. How did I avoid this? I made a very small island, barely enough to fit 20 chariots, I put the computers players in the corner, so it can't run. Basically all they did was trade shots.
- You accidently made the computer players Egypt, Egypt is one of the default races and mebe you didn't change it, Egypt gets 33% more chariot HP, so it would have around 93 hp which is 6 extra arrows for assy, and 5 extra arrows for hittie.
- You accidently put the computer chariots on a hill, this would've made the enemy chariots do double damage.

I highly suggest you try to learn a little more about the game before you start saying that advantages aren't real. Try the test again and do it the way I did it, make a little square of water with the edges of the map as 2 of the edges, make sure to place the enemy chariot in the corner so it can't do hit and run, and don't touch your own, they'll hit each other automatically. And just note how much HP the assy/hittie has left in the end. like I said 10vs10 5 assy survived, how could that be bogus?

-- The Archer

Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 08-29-99 08:46 AM ET (US)     4 / 28       
Egypt has the best CA. The hp bonus added to the Nobility upgrade give Egypt a sizable advantage over Hittite ( second, with nobilty) and Assyria ( first among non-upgraded units; third factoring in nobility). The lack of alchemy drops Assy even further back in Iron.

Although in actual gameplay, the best CA is the one that's on the hill

AxemanJim
Inactive
posted 08-29-99 04:44 PM ET (US)     5 / 28       

After reading SoulArcher's response I did a few more tests - and the archery bonuses still come out bogus (see below). Per SoulArcher's advise I put various units on the smallest possible islands (created in the scenario editor) so that the units couldnt move at all while I was shooting them. Here's the results:

- Assyrian CA kills WE = 3:48
- Hittie CA kills WE = 3:46
- Shang CA kills WE = 3:45

- Assyrian Bowman kills WE = 4:39
- Hittie Bowman kills WE = 3:38
- Shang Bowman kills WE = 3:38

- Assyrian CA kills Scout = 24
- Hittie CA kills WE = 23
- Shang CA kills WE = 23

Still no difference and so the Hittie and Assyrian archery bonuses still appear to be bogus.

Here's my two cents about SoulArcher's post:

> 10vs10 5 assy survived, how could that be bogus?

Easy. When you put groups of guys against groups of other guys you are subject to mulitple aiming possibilities. For example, if a bunch of guys aim at just one guy on the other side - that's more effective than just going one on one. That's especially the case if 'you' (a human) were aiming them (you'll be way more effective doing that than if you just let them do their own shooting - my guess is that's probably what you did). The only real way to test this stuff is to put one unit against one unit.

> You accidently put the computer chariots on a hill

Nope - all flat ground - in the scenario editor. Either way all three civs were shooting from the same spot so terrain would be the same in each test.

>I highly suggest you try to learn a little more about
>the game before you start saying that advantages
>aren't real.

What does that have to do with it? This is more or less a scientific test. How many seconds does it take to kill an enemy unit, etc.

I'd love for somebody to prove me wrong on this because I love the hittite civ and now Im considering switching to another civ because the archery bonus appears to be bogus. Someone else (with an open mind) please try this test - put an enemy unit on the smallest possible island and take shots at him with CA's in various civs. See if you get different results than I did. Just make sure your victim unit doesnt move around while you shoot him because that can cause misses. Post what you find out - Im very interested.

--AxemanJim

AxemanJim
Inactive
posted 08-29-99 04:47 PM ET (US)     6 / 28       
Oops - error in my last post:
Assyrian Bowman kills WE = 3:39 (not 4:39)
AxemanJim
Inactive
posted 08-29-99 05:38 PM ET (US)     7 / 28       
DISREGARD MY LAST POSTS in this thread. I figured out what I was doing wrong. In the scenario editor I had 'player 2' set to full tech tree. That threw off all my numbers. The new (real) figures seem to answer my original question - Assyrian rules the archer world during Bronze. Here's the revised (NON-full-tech-tree) results:

Assyrian CA kills WE = 2:46
Hittie CA kills WE = 2:59
Shang CA kills WE = 3:46

Assyrian CA kills Scout = 18
Hittie CA kills WE = 19
Shang CA kills WE = 24

Although, it appears that Hittite with Alchemy rules the archery world in iron (like somebody else in this thread said). One other thing that suprised me a little was that a standard bowman kills a WE in 3:31 - so the CA is only 15% more powerful in attack than the bowman in that case.

This worked out kind of cool - I think Im going to stick with Hittite (depending upon who Im playing) and just build 12 bowman during bronze to protect my town until iron. Before, I used to build all sorts of camels for protection but the Hittite bowman will be a lot cheaper.

Anyway, sorry for alarming everyone with my previous post. I here-by tribute 1000 gold to all my Hittite and Assyrian friends that I temporily upset :-)

SoulArcher
Clubman
posted 08-29-99 06:47 PM ET (US)     8 / 28       
I know you corrected yourself, but when you say it's all scientific (though technically it's more mathematic) it seems a little strange. Hittie gets +1 damage, now unless you can somehow PROVE that Hittie only does 4 damage even though it says +1, then you'd have an arguement. Otherwise you'd be trying to prove that 5=4, now I don't know good of a scientist (mathematician) you are... but I don't think you can prove that also your comparison that Tool bow is barely weaker thant he CA, you forget about HP. CA has double HP of a tool bow, try putting a CA vs. tool bow and see what happens, it's simple to say that a tool bow is about the same cause it only does one damage less (In the hittie case it does the same as a chariot archer, whoa). And about Egypt I suppose with nobility a 100+ HP chariot would rule in a fight with other ranged units, but melee units i'd rather take out as many as I can before they get in range, plus better attacks means easier to kill villagers and etc, which is actually the CA's main goal... Don't get me wrong, I love Egypt CA as well, plus i'm unsure whether Egypt CA (Nobility and Alchemy) would beat Hittie CA (Nobility and Alchemy) I think I gotta test it out... And just to defend myself for the 10v10 I didn't touch the chariots, I highlighted the Assy/Hitte chariots to see their HPs, and they attacked thier own targets randomly, trust me I know how to test unit effectiveness. And actually I think my statement about learning more about the game is relevent. I don't think anyone who knows how to play the game well would try to argue that any civ's chariot is better than Assy/Hittie cause it's obvious in gameplay that they are. Once again I will give money to anyone who can prove to me that 5 = 4
AxemanJim
Inactive
posted 08-29-99 08:12 PM ET (US)     9 / 28       
I didnt get that whole 5=4 thing but I think you are saying that Hittite beats Assyrian and I agree with you. You also had a good point about the hit points on a CA. Egypt's CAs sound pretty neat but if I remember correctly - they have no siege. Every game that I get into with my close friends turns out to be a contest of who has the best 200 guys (we always seem to hit the population limit). Also, they always ignor preists. So with that in mind, it's crazy not to send over +150 seige and elephants into their town when it's finally time to mix it up. So far, I havnt figured out anything (other than priests) that can stop cats and elephants if you want to fill your population limit with the most powerful 200 units. Thus I go with Hittite (cats + WE) - and the archery bonus helps me fight off the annoying little attacks in Bronze. Then if my attack fails and I run out of gold (which happens to me too much!!!) - I can resort to scythe chairots.
SoulArcher
Clubman
posted 08-30-99 06:46 AM ET (US)     10 / 28       
my 5=4 thing is very simple. Hittie's archer advantage gets +1 archer damage but you were trying to prove that Hittie chariot isn't as good. In order for that to be true, 5 damage per shot would have to be the same as 4 damage per shot. Without upgrades IMO Assy is the best, followed by Hittie, then Egypt. Both fully upgraded I'd still rather have Hittie Chariots, then Egypt, then Assy. Hittie is a better civ than both of them so it doesn't matter anyways
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 08-30-99 09:30 AM ET (US)     11 / 28       
AxemanJim... test Egypt! Try Hittite vs. Egypt Assy vs. Egypt Assy vs. Hittite...

Egypt does get bonus hit points...

admstx7
Clubman
posted 08-30-99 09:46 AM ET (US)     12 / 28       
i have to agree that egypt has the best ca. As far a ha goes, i tested an assyrian ha with craftsmanship and a sumerian ha with nobility alchemy and artisinship. the assyrian ha won, but only had 8 hp left. So you can imagine what a hittite ha would do to an assyrian ha. plus civs like hittite yamato and sumerian have the ability to upgrade to hha if they wish, a luxuary assyrian doesn't get
Radagastt
Inactive
posted 08-30-99 09:49 AM ET (US)     13 / 28       
And anyways axamanjim, think about this= in games where the best 200 guys wins, that turns out that egypy does have the best 200- the other guys 200. Egy priests KILL siege.

Dio

Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 08-30-99 10:05 AM ET (US)     14 / 28       
Axeman Jim-

You originally asked the question: which civ gets the best CA?

The answer is Egypt. However, you will not be able to prove this by killing elephants. That test only rates unupgraded attack strengths. Unupgraded (meaning no nobility or range considerations), the Assy rate-of-fire is better than the Hittite +1 damage.

In testing unit vs. unit, you bring hp into the equation. This begins to show Egypt's strength. However, I know of no way to factor in the nobility upgrade in the editor.

Mathematics, however, shows that the Egyptian hp bonus coupled with the nobility upgrade *easily* makes Egypt superior to both Hittite (with the +1 and nobility) and Assy. Get a friend to help you test it during a mock game. Egypt whips a**.

The same priciple holds for HA. Nobility/Alchemy and the +1 make Hittite the best. Their HHA are the kings of archery. All HA with nobility and Alchemy beat Assy, which get neither. All HHA, regardless of other upgrades, beat Assy.

What I don't know is whether nobility alone in a civ getting no other bonuses would be enough to beat Assy. If someone is willing to test this please post the results.

Thinker42
Clubman
posted 08-30-99 10:50 AM ET (US)     15 / 28       
If you want to test units with all upgrades against each other select post-iron age in SB. If you just need one or more specific techs for one player put the human player in the age where the first of the wanted techs comes in and upgrade away. If you need ones in more than one age provide yourself with the necessary buildings and resources to do age changes. When you want to put units in a small confined space but not have them attack each other until the upgrades are done then make a big enough water area to put transports in. Put your units on the shore. When upgrades are done load them into the transport and land on the small island. As soon as it unloads they begin fighting. If you are testing ranged units make sure the water is wide enough. If you test too many at one time the transport will get sunk before it unloads. I can't think of a way (other than use multiple human players) of testing specific techs for each side.
Bi0Logic
Inactive
posted 08-30-99 10:56 PM ET (US)     16 / 28       
I will now end the argument. In Bronze age Egypt, Assyrian, and Hittite have almost equally powerful CA's. However, in Iron age is when the difference is clear.

HITTIE CA'S ARE WITHOUT A DOUBT THE BEST IN IRON.

Why? They do 6 damage. The barbaric Assyrians have no alchemy and no nobility, so their 40% bonus doesnt mean a thing if it does only 4 damage to the mighty Iron age units. Correct me if im wrong but I think assyrians also lack chain mail, too. Egypt's hit point bonus is handy for their inevitable scythes, but somewhat insignificant for the CA's in Iron (just like the insignificant Assy bonus).

Axeman Jim, try testing the CA's against actual units and at different ages.

------------------
BioLogic strikes again...

Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 08-31-99 10:07 AM ET (US)     17 / 28       
It becomes a matter of defining the term "best".

In a 1v1 fight an Egyptian CA with either nobility in Bronze or nobility and alchemy in Iron beats a similarly upgraded Hittite.

If the term "best" is used to describe overall effectiveness in actual gameplay than perhaps Hittite could be called best in certain limited scenarios based upon their superior firepower.

But I think you'll find that not only in 1v1 (objectively speaking) but in gameplay (subjectively speaking) that the Egyptians are the best.

The increased lifespan of Egyptian CA ultimately means greater overall firepower through the course of a battle because the last time I checked the attack of a fully upgraded dead Hittite CA was 0. For example, an Egyptian CA is still alive after 2 ST shots while the Hittite has given up the ghost.

The only area where Hittite is better is peon killing, being that defensive considerations are moot.

And thanks guys for the tips using the editor. 8D

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 10:57 AM ET (US)     18 / 28       
Despite the utter futility (based on the success of this train of thought in previous threads), let me try this one more time. Which are the best CA is completely dependent on what thier mission is.

If they are supposed to slaughter villagers, Egypt (4 AT) will take 7 shots to kill one, i.e., 10.5 seconds. As will Assy, but they will finish in 7.7 seconds. Hittite (5 AT) takes only 5 shots, for a villager kill every 7.5 seconds.

How about their sworn foe, Priests. If S_Hemlock is correct in his figures for conversion rates, (as I recall, one chance at 1.5 seconds, one chance every 3 seconds thereafter) Hittie and Assy will have to withstand 3 attempts, Egypt has to withstand 4. After the priest has 50 HP, the 13 Assy shots take 14.3 seconds (5 conversion attempts), 13 Egypt takes 19.5 seconds (6 conversion attempts), 10 Hittite shots take 15 seconds (5 conversion attempts).

Let's take the example of broadswordsmen, a typical Roman Bronze unit. They have 2 PA (1 base + bronze shield), meaning that Egypt and Assy are doing a net 2 AT. Broadies have 70 HP, meaning that it will take 35 shots to get a kill, 52.5 seconds for the Egyptian, 38.5 seconds for the Assy. The lowly Hittite has a net 3 AT, and requires 14 shots, or 21 seconds.

How about our CA encountering another common enemy, the ST? Since I usually have several packs of around 6 CA at this point in the game, and I am not the only one doing this, lets have them meet a ST. They hear the "sproing" of the ST and move to engage. The rock falls behind them somewhere and 6 arrows streak towards the ST. The ST has 75 HP. The Assy and Egyptian do 24, the Hittite does 30. Thinking quickly, this will take 4 volleys from the Egy/Assy, 3 from the Hittie with plenty damage left over in any case. Before they get a second shot off, they will have to move or get hit. Hittie has to dodge successfully twice, maybe 3 times depending on the exact timing of the dodge. Egy and Assy have to dodge 3 or 4 times. You can fail to dodge once and still be OK. However, once Nobility kicks in, Egypt gets the luxury of surviving even if hit twice. Before Nobility, Hittite is still ahead, afterwards, advantage Egypt.

Slingers. Their 3 PA means Egypt takes 25 shots (37.5 seconds), Assy takes 25 shots (27.5 seconds), Hittite takes 13 shots (19.5 seconds).

The CA vs CA battles have been done to death. Advantage - Egypt.

So in the above cases, only in the case of CA vs CA and STs vs Nobility CA does Egypt have the advantage.

I don't remember who did the workup, but someone showed that Palmy and Phoe should also be in the running for best CA, since they should outnumber any of the others approximately 1.3-1 (a bonus roughly equal to Egypt HP and a full point more damage than Hittite), and I believe Cherub Lobby pointed out that Shang should be in the running since their CA are running amok at least a full minute earlier.

Keep your stick on the ice.

BenAtLarge
Inactive
posted 08-31-99 04:33 PM ET (US)     19 / 28       
CA v. CA, Egypt CAs are the best. Their bonus is almost as good as Assy's early on CA v. CA, and after Nobility, it's just no contest. 106 hp w/ 4 damage every 1.5 seconds (egypt) beats 70 hps 5.44 damage every 1.5 seconds (assy) or 80 hps 5 damage every 1.5 seconds (hittite).

As Thorfinn said, Hitt and Assy CAs are much superior to the Egyptian versions in killing villagers.

However Thorfinn, Priests die horribly to CAs and it takes a lot less time than 14.3 shots for an Assy CA to kill a Priest. I think you forgot to factor in the +8 AT bonus vs. priests that CA have. An Assy CA, doing 4+8 attack on every shot vs. the Priest, takes only 5 shots (5.5 seconds) to kill a Priest. A Hittite CA, doing 5+8 attack on every shot vs. the Priest, takes 4 shots to do the same (6.0 seconds). A regular attack CA will take 5 4+8 attack shots at a Priest before killing it (7.5 seconds). At any rate, CAs are Priest killers, especially when you factor in the 8x resistance.

Also, I think that Priests reattempt conversion every 1.5 seconds: http://netleague.com/aoe/ARTICLES/priestinfo.html

Also, broadswords start with 0 PA. If they started with 1 PA, that would be pretty cool ;-). So an Assy archer would take 24 shots to kill a 0+1 broadie (26.4 seconds), a Hitt would take 18 shots (27 seconds), and a regular/Egy CA would take 24 shots (36 seconds).

Thanks mrfixit for the stats. ;-)


Bi0Logic
Inactive
posted 08-31-99 05:36 PM ET (US)     20 / 28       
Well, I'm an offensive player, so Hittite are the best for me. However I still think Assyrian CA's are not very above average in Iron.

------------------
BioLogic strikes again...

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 05:44 PM ET (US)     21 / 28       
I stand corrected. I had the +8 in there, but somehow forgot to add it in when I was actually crunching the numbers. And I accidentally grabbed the infantry figures from the cheat sheet in front of me. Unfortunately, that is AoK.

I maybe should have just dredged up the old thread instead of trying to regenerate all the thoughts that were contained therein.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Wuzat
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 06:52 PM ET (US)     22 / 28       
ummmm... thorfinn... isnt that violating the EULA? shouldnt you edit that out? like now?

------------------
Hmmm where is that wood pit? Hey! Why is my army at my wood pit? ARRGH!!! My vills are attacking AE!!! No! Woe is me, Woe is me!

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 07:20 PM ET (US)     23 / 28       
Without performing "the math" to solve the inintial question of which the answer is.. It depends on what you want them for !! I will say that.. CA have +7 attack vs priests and that slingers have only +2 PA unless you have researched the pricy bronze shield.. so double check some of that analysis, Thorfinn...neilkaz...
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 09:34 PM ET (US)     24 / 28       
Is it only +7? BenAtLarge said +8 and that is what I seem to recall as well. But I could be wrong. I never personally tested it, just the manual says "triple attack vs. priests" which I guess I assumed meant going from 4 to 12, i.e., +8.

Slingers, yes, I did assume bronze shield. I didn't explicitly state it because I had laready gone on too long. Seems most of the time I actually see a decent force of slingers in Bronze they have it.

Wuzat, since I didn't tell you what column I was looking at, I am pretty sure its OK. I don't know for sure, tho... But its a little late to take it all back now...

Keep your stick on the ice.

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 09:50 PM ET (US)     25 / 28       
Trust me +7 is triple in ES math !!..neilkaz..
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 10:30 PM ET (US)     26 / 28       
LOL! Are there any other "new math" things that hadn't come to light before?

Keep your stick on the ice.

SoulArcher
Clubman
posted 09-01-99 00:23 AM ET (US)     27 / 28       
Egypt may have the best CA with all upgrades, which is nice, but CA can't fight forever. Hittie's advantage on the other hand spans from tool to iron. no matter how you look at it, HA beat CA )
Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 09-01-99 08:40 AM ET (US)     28 / 28       
Thorfinn:

"Despite the utter futility (based on the success of this train of thought in previous threads), let me try this one more time. {Note: This is a little condescending, don't you think?} Which are the best CA is completely dependent on what thier mission is."

Well, I think that is what I was saying. There is offense and there is defense.

In situations where damage is going to be absorbed (as in the case of STs) Egypt, imho, will usually win out.

Where there is the possibility of eliminating a significant portion of the targets before any damage is taken (as is the case in fighting melee units) then Hittite can be superior.

There is a medium somewhere between the two where Egypt's hp and Hittite's attack would produce identical results, although the mathematical variables are too myriad to detail. Not only would all the various units, in all their possible numbers, with all their possible upgrades need to be considered but also the tactics of the opponent as well (i.e. will he assign one unit per CA, assign all units to one CA or something betwwen the two?).

I thought you your analysis dealt too much with attack and neglected durabilty as a factor in overall power. All things considered my feeling is that Egypt has a strong claim to the best CA.


[This message has been edited by Joe Rockhead (edited 09-01-99).]

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