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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Hunt, fish, or farm?
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Topic Subject:Hunt, fish, or farm?
Apache47
Inactive
posted 08-23-99 05:57 PM ET (US)         
The question has plagued agers for ages. In the Iron Age, do I farm, fish, or hunt? Ususally hunting's out of the question, but if it's not do you do it? Is fishing the answer? Maybe. It depends on the situation. How about farming? Many players use farms as early as tool. I say it's a waste of wood. I played a game with maimin_matty, and he didn't build one farm the entire game. He also had about 80 vils. Tell me your suggestions here.

And BTW, I'm back!

AuthorReplies:
Wascally_Wabbit
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 06:11 PM ET (US)     1 / 15       
I've been meaning to ask a similar question myself - I never shore fish, unless I find a real sweet spot early on. But I know the experts out there do, and I know it's faster. My problem is that by the time I've scouted the coast line, and found what is a possible site, I will have already put my granary up - and I only plan on having one land based food source before the bronze age. Can anyone suggest any ideas? I usually get a 25-real vill 15-16min bronze.

As to Apache's question - I start building farms when my fish is about to be depleted, only because I find hunting too complex, and berries too rare. Farms are slow, but enough of them still rakes in the food.

decimator04
Inactive
posted 08-23-99 06:12 PM ET (US)     2 / 15       
I would say it depend on what type of situation the player is in. If you control the seas, build more docks and ships if you need to, and move your ships around the map. I find it so hard to keep food steady this way though. I will most likely farm. They are easily protected, more reliable, faster than ships(if thats what you are refering to and not shore fishing). The speed of ships and farms are the same gathering rate, but the ships have to travel so far that it makes you need more to get the job done. Plus farms outlast fishing and it is easily replaced when it id done if you dont build them all at the same time... then you have a mess for sure.

I never farm without defenses close by, weather it be archers, towers, walls or all of the above. Prests are the best defense against anything but chariots, with egypt you might even get them too. youll need to do alot of HOYOing though

well thats my 50 cents

-Dec

admstx7
Clubman
posted 08-24-99 04:29 AM ET (US)     3 / 15       
it depends on the map.
on medit, i play as a competent fisherman civ (palmy, minoan), boats in the middle and villagers on the shore.

on any other water map, i prefer to be phoe, persian, minoan, or yam, since shore fishing is rarer and i can boat fish and hunt.

on land i like a good hunting civ, that isn't dependant on fishing later, yam, or sumer(hp agianst eles), so i can hunt in stone and tool and farm in bronze and iron.

on water, i rarely farm, and if i do, it's usualy just 5-10 farms

my record for farming was on a highland 1v1 and my enemy was playing hide and seek. I was sumer, he hittite, i hit him with scouts at about 12 mins, followed by ca, camels, and throwers at 18, and had an army of hha scowering for his remains at about 40 mins. i got up to 56 farms that game, and when i clicked on "train war elephant" 51 times, the message "not enough gold" came up.

sorry to bother you with my stories

ANNIHIL8
Inactive
posted 08-24-99 06:52 AM ET (US)     4 / 15       
I have become an avid hunter as of late, it seems to work well for me. I first drop a grany for the berries, then it is all hunting after that babby. I like to kill the beast as close to wood as possible gather the food and put those guys on wood directly after. I usually have three groups of peons doing this. Now i am not saying this is a great idea, and it does not allways work like I hope but, I do have fun with it. Guess it makes me feel like a true hunter and gatherer of the stone and tool age. In iron only use farms and berries easier to use minimal management needed, not to mention the farms let you know when the are all dried up.

[This message has been edited by ANNIHIL8 (edited 08-24-99).]

Paralyticus
Clubman
posted 08-24-99 07:19 AM ET (US)     5 / 15       
Fist of all, UBB Code sucks!


My orders of priority

Stone Age:

1. Shore Fish (3 or more per pit, no less) - if found VERY early (normally Coastal, Continental, Shallows and sometimes Mediterranean, but on Medit you are seldom that near the water)
2. Berries, granary #1
3. Hunt Elephants (if near wood pit)
4. Hunt gazelle (if near wood pit)
5. Fishing boats (only if wood abundant)
6. 2nd. and 3rd. Berries! (Yeah, baby, that rocks)
6. Hunt elephants (minimum 2, with dedicated pit)
7. Hunt gazelle (minimum 6, with dedicated pit)

Comments:

In Stone Age, Berries #1 are the safest bet. Reccommend you check how they are placed to place granary at the best possible location. Also sometuimes Bingo! you find two berry groups close together

Fishing in Stone for me depends a lot on whether I find the 2nd. berries early or not. If you find 2nd. berries early, you can do with only an additional elephant or two and reach bronze quickly with a moderate boom (24-25 Vills and eventually 6 to 10 fishing boats). You will have an average 10-12 guys on food, so you have 12-14 on wood and gold, which allows you to bronze with the possibility to spit 2 or 3 camels and a scout real early, while you again press for boats and villagers, so that you can follow up with missile units.

Once you commit to heavy fishing, there's no turning back: you need to go haevy booming, and wood becomes a pain in the neck - it's only TOO EASY to exaggerate on fishing boats!

Tool Age:

1. Shore Fish (3 or more per pit, no less)
2. Berries (2nd. and more granaries)
3. More Fishing boats (if wood abundant)
4. Hunt Elephants (if near wood pit)
5. Hunt gazelle (if near wood pit)
6. Hunt elephants (minimum 2, with dedicated pit)
7. Hunt gazelle (minimum 6, with dedicated pit)
8. Farms (if no other source available - that is: in despair)


Comments:

Logic: You don't want the food to suck your wood.
You need to have a distribution of food gatherers that leaves you enough manpower for wood and eventually Gold.
So, there's a balance to strike between woodcutters and food pickers and also a close monitoring on how fishing boats may be draining your wood. A great care in balancing these things is required.

You should be ok when you reach Tool with the wood for the Bronze-requirements buildings, some 450 food gathered and going up and woodcutting is in such shape that a few Scout ships (2-3) and more fishing boats and another dock may go up, with some more in the bank for technologies. No less than 12-14 woodcutters are rquired for this, more if you can afford. I would move villagers away from food into wood whenever the food balance would become confortable and amybe a villager for each fishing boat.

In Tool I apply the same logic as in Stone. I would of course privilege the wood a bit more than in stone, because, in the occurrence of a tool Attack, you are toast without enough wood (remember those request to allies for those 200 Wood to rebuild?). You also need to think about Scout Ships, Bronze requirement buildings, and wood-intensive technologies - most technologies in Tool Age require food and wood.
It is a good idea to acquire some gold during Tool (if you can make that extra villager or two and you can afford wood for the pit) - you often are forced to abandon your gold and your home if you can't afford that quick camel or two upon arriving to Bronze.

Bronze


Here, you obviously need all the three resources, wood, food and gold. There's a great tednency to deplete the food too fast, because of not paying enough attention to it.

The military situation is the judge here!...

The military situation may require a lot of attention - especially if you are attacked.

I suggest this policy:

a) Attacked on the sea?

You need to equate the possible outcome:

a1) Can you hold?

If yes, then send everybody to wood, LOTS of fighting ships will be required. Use the fishing ships (if you have that upgrade, Hittite have not) to supply the food and (eventually) privilege that extra granary, if you are lucky to find more berries. At this time, more berries are heavenly!...

a2) Are we losing the sea?...

a2.1) Are we ALSO attacked on land?...

a2.1.1) Are we well entrenched? Are our TC and Granaries well protected from the enemy?...

a2.1.1.1) If yes, go moderatelly on farms and try to support your defensive military adequatelly.
Again, that EXTRA granary would come in handy (TC, near a forest, you can then use it for wood after the berries are exausthed)

a2.1.1.2) Well, if you cannot grant a haven to your food guys, not in the sea and not in the land, SPREAD OUT! Run for your life!

You NEED to get a place where you can farm peacefully and another place to cut wood like mad.

AND on top of that you need to get the gold SOMEWHERE. ANYWHERE. Even from trading. So that you can have the hope of revovering your gold piles before the enemy loots them.

a2.2) Not attacked on land.

Good, you lost the sea, but at least you CAN do something to recover. Go heavy (but not as heavy as in a1) on wood and farm the hell out so that you can start NOW to upgrade / train military with a future (also the best to counter whatever he has).

This time you MUST see to the food situation and to the entrenchments.

The actual setup should be composed of:

A defended camp (some military inside) and with a convincing wall-in (that is, no missile units will be able to snipe at the peasants) and also a protected gold minimng and woodcutting operation. ALL are needed.

At this point in time it is vital to scout fot unnattended resources (mainly gold, forests and berries) and hog them all, by making extra TC and Villagers on the spots. Resource grabbing is paramount here, because you must compensate for the loss of the seas.

Make sure that your operations are AWAY FROM SHORE!!! Since they own the seas...

FOOD and Gold are the resources to stockpile (you need 2,000 Food and 1500 before you Iron). Wood may also be, if you want Siege and/or Scythes!...

So you need a TON of Villagers, regardless.

No way you can get those essencial workers without FOOD - and it must come from Farms, eventually extra berries - no hunting, you cannot afford that now...


2) Not attacked on the sea?

Great, all you need is:

- make more docks
- make more fishing ships.

and commit food garthering to the seas.

You can then use the wood to make buildings, repell assaults or invade yourself with wood intensive forces, go Iron earlier...

It's heaven!

Since you will have the Villager force rather available, i suggest that you tuck some 12 or so farms in a safe place and capitalize on your wealth by crushing your enemies. If you need the quick food later, I bet that you will find new spots near forests with berries nearby and some more fishing banks.

This is the best case scenario, so fish and farm away!...


Note:

My problem is to manage badly the balance between food and wood in Stone and Tool.
That is also where the experts excel.

I think that (aside from perfect execution) these are the key points to food gathering - as the game progresses and the military isuues as well as the extension of your territory increases, the more emphasis you must put on ease of management - micromanaging food in the heat of battle is a terrible blow in your efficiency - so hunting is out, optimizing the fleet must be done but can wait... So. We are then left with old faithful berries (if lucky enough to find more) and with the famous reliable farms - as long as they are safely tucked away from battle

In summary, in Bronze you either fish freely or farm, with more berries being a bonus.
Fishing means that you are quite well, all things considered.

Iron

If you cannot farm safely in Iron or if you are STILL needing that alternate source - man, you are DEAD.

In Iron, fishing is a sport (so much idle time and wood to spare, huh?...), hunting is a joke and berries are a miracle. Go for berries whenever available, that's 900 of free food any time!... then later on you just added another farming base, hehe.


In Iron everything should already have been said and done, IMHO.

Iron is the confirmation of how well (or badly) you have played until Bronze...


(Sorry for many spelling errors caused by missing or repeating letters, but I have a troubled relationship with keyboards...)


[This message has been edited by Paralyticus (edited 08-24-99).]

Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 08-24-99 09:08 AM ET (US)     6 / 15       
hi all wow great post Paralyticus!! follow his guide

I don't know which is better.... and i don't build farms till late game if at all. What I try to do is get all the food Deer, eles , fish... berries asap in stone/tool.. if food is not to be found fast... then farm

my vills eat the lions too

Tenaciti.... i think i love this game 2 much

Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 08-24-99 10:35 AM ET (US)     7 / 15       
As to food in the Iron Age, you only have a choice in 2-player games, of course. In one-on-one, you can forage, fish, and hunt the whole game but usually food comes in faster through farming due to less micromanagement. Unprotected foragers in the field also have a tendancy to get whacked after 15 minutes.

As to Paralyticus' essay, I find fault with his partiality to granaries. The granary first start is a last result with me. There are many scenarios in which the granary can be bypassed initially and I build one only when I have to (usually in order to qualify for a market).

Some questions to answer when deciding on build orders:

1. Is there water nearby? If yes, you owe it to yourself to explore it before committing to the granary. Two shore fish with a few straggler trees is still better than a granary. Those straggler trees could be the difference in the game if you lack trees at the TC.

2. Is there forest nearby? If so, explore it and delay building. A forest at the TC with a food source within reasonable walking distance opens up a dock first strat.

4. Lastly, and most importantly, "How much wood do I have near the TC?". If you are short on trees at the TC then you have no choice but to find food with wood.

If fish, game or berries are within walking distance of the TC then use that food source and sacrifice a few seconds of delay in peon production to get some extra scouting done.

Starting with wood at a pit is a very nice advantage and one that should be coveted. A granary first start is a concession to expert players. Shore fishing and boat booming are the only ways to survive. Both of these require pits, and the sooner they're down the better.

If Wheaties are the breakfast of champions, then berry-pickers are Wheaties %).

Paralyticus
Clubman
posted 08-25-99 05:54 AM ET (US)     8 / 15       
Well pointed out, Joe, thanks!...

The straggler situation near the TC has a significant impact on development times!...

The pit first strategy will, after some time, allow the recovery of the time lost scouting, in comparison with the bigger number of villagers just spending time walking to get a meager tree.

All please take that as a welcome correction to my previous post, it is really important.

Straggler situation near TC should be evaluated before going granary. Scarce or far-away stragglers are a factor in the attractiveness of a pit-fist strategy.

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-26-99 02:49 PM ET (US)     9 / 15       
Lots of interesting stuff here and, as always I will add my comments. This time I will directly address specific points made by a couple of forummers here.Please note that all this applies to giga watery map 3v3's unless I specifically state otherwise. The speed is assumed to be 1.0 for the start.

WARNING.. VERY LONG !!

My typical style is to attempt to build a potentially overwhelming economy quickly. I want to make as many real vils as possible as fast as possible and arrive at tool no later than 12:15 w/adequate resources to immediately bronze jump with ANY civ. I hope to make a new vil while my buildings go up and also to click my wood upgrade as soon as my market goes up. This nets me a 15:00 bronze with a potent economy with ANY civ. Off course, I can do this faster w/good civs and I normally try to. I also may cut back a bit economically to speed up tool/bronze if my sence of danger (achievements.. enemy activity seen ..exposed position..etc) tells me to.I occasionally may sprint to tool and tool rush someone and often I utilize my resources and postpone bronze a bit to tool attack.

The ONE thing I DON'T want is to have my TC idle for very long. That building is ment to be CONSTANTLY pumping new vils unless it is otherwise occupied advancing your age.
I especially don't want it inactive at the start of the game but realistically you rarely get that 50 food in time to start vil 8 immediately. I also don't want my TC sitting idle very long while I wait to accumulate my 500 food to tool. This means that I need a LARGE food intake in late stone, thus requiring a 2nd food source other than just fishing boats in most cases.

In order to accomplish my starting goals in 3v3's I must minimize any starting vil delays. I must also minimize any idle time by vils standing around waiting for wood to dock or pit or whatever. I also WON'T waste time overexploring well before I am ready to do anything with the resource I will find.

OK on to my discussion of other's posts.(NK) will offcourse show my comments.

Paralyticus posted 08-24-99 07:19 AM ET (US)

My orders of priority

Stone Age:

1. Shore Fish (3 or more per pit, no less) - if found VERY early (normally Coastal, Continental, Shallows and sometimes Mediterranean, but on Medit you are seldom that near the water)

(NK) 2 SF by a couple of strags can make for a good starting spot and often allows me to create vil 8 with no waiting. However, the SF must be found VERY quickly or you end up losing time. The problem with this 2SF start is that they run out quickly and you face a problem of needing wood for a pit and then a granary or more SF pits quickly(unless a bunch of meat by your wood) If pitted fast enough you can sometimes maintain food input w/just 4 SFers(48 food in 20 sec w/no walking) as you may start collecting SF quickly and have supluss food before you start vil 8.

Still this 2SF first start is easy to botch later as that 2nd food source is needed quickly. It works well when you have a couple of strags by your TC as well because then you have little wood problems.

If the SF are 3 or 4 tiles distant from your TC you can simply carry them back to your TC, often with 3 guys per fishing spot. This allows a quick wood pit if needed...and then you get that granary going in time to continue vils.

While nice, I still won't go out of my way to find a SF first spot in ROR.

2. Berries, granary #1

(NK) I expect I go granary first at least 90% of the time in ROR. Berries last a long time and give you 900 or 1050 food for 120 wood. 1050 food plus your starting 200 make 25 new vils. Simply gathering 500 more elsewhere allows for a 28 vil tool !! Your berries also last until about 7 or 8 minutes into the game thus giving you more than adequate time to devote all other vils to getting something else established.

3. Hunt Elephants (if near wood pit)

(NK) I simply don't recall getting many good starting hunting first with ANY civ. I've done OK as Persia if I can solve the problem of what to eat next after the food runs out. Also Shang can get away with hunting first in a pinch. The problems with early eles are many.

a) That thing isn't easy to kill and gets nasty when speared. OK.. you found eles by the forest but you have only 4 vils and the other 3 need to be called over to help kill it. One would think that 4 vils would kill a phant in 3 shots..but it seems that one spear usually misses and thus 11 hit and the phant is alive w/1 HP(just retested in SB) Therefore you may end up with wounded or even a dead vil early if you try to kill it with just 4 vils.

b) A phant carcass is large so even if it is near your pit/TC some of your vils are wasting considerable time walking around the carcass and the other gatherers. As a result I often need 7 vils on the phant to maintain vil flow.

c) Your vils will attack the 2nd phant automatically once the first is done. This often results in casualties. As a result it it best to kill both phants ASAP and place 3 gatherers on each. Phants only decay 1 food every 5 sec. However, killing both phants close to your idle wood spot and then having subsequent vils gather wood with little interference is easier to say than do in a laggy 3v3 game on the zone.

d) Again you are left with the pressing need to establish another food source once the eles are gone.

4. Hunt gazelle (if near wood pit)

(NK) a) Again not so easy. If you try to kill them with one vil they scatter. Typically the same thing happens with 2 vils. Lag means that your vils want to advance towards the first dead gaz when you want them shooting the next gaz. If you don't retarget them ASAP before they throw the first spear you may get scattered gaz.

b) They decay faster than phants. Let's say you kill a herd of 6 and place your first 6 vils on each one individually. You still only get about 85-90 food per gaz and once again need a 2nd food source quickly.

c) Unlike with phants if your first vil tries to build a pit to soon by the wood you may scatter the gaz. Oftentimes that explorer has allready scattered them.

(NK)Ender was a proponent of hunting first in many cases but I have rarely found it desirable at all (unless Persian).(Maybe Ender left ROR because he never had any strags) It can get you out of a bad spot when you have NO wood by your TC or your berries are COMPLETELY screwed up. However, even in games where I have seen meat and quickly jumped on it I have usually lost 40 to 60 sec in vil production and sometimes suffered more delays while getting my 2nd food going.

5. Fishing boats (only if wood abundant)

(NK)Obviously, you mean fishing boats later and aren't suggesting dock first. If you go dock first once in every 100 games that is likely too often.

(NK)However, for docks in general.. I think I can safely say that almost no matter what you want to make at least one dock virtually as soon as you can after you pit in the stone age. The ability to produce additional gathering units from another source is tremendous. In general, I make 2 docks no matter what in 3v3's . Even if you are bronze rushing or tool rushing you'll likely want a dock. The added food income feuls a tool rush nicely.

6. 2nd. and 3rd. Berries! (Yeah, baby, that rocks)

(NK) 2nd berries does rock..but unless you're Palmy you won't need a 3rd granary before tooling.

6. Hunt elephants (minimum 2, with dedicated pit)
7. Hunt gazelle (minimum 6, with dedicated pit)

(NK) Hunting as a 2nd food source can help speed tool times. I'd prefer SF or a 2nd granary but sometimes they aren't around.

Comments from Paralyticus)

In Stone Age, Berries #1 are the safest bet. Reccommend you check how they are placed to place granary at the best possible location. Also sometuimes Bingo! you find two berry groups close together

(NK) Double berries are HIGHLY overrated. Many players end up with a granary placed too far from from both patches and thus need 7 or 8 gatherers. Once in a while you do find a nice double patch. Don't fret if you missed it. You can add a 2nd granary later and in all likelyhood you'll gather both sets more efficiently than with just one granary. This will mitigate much of the lost wood/time for making that 2nd granary.

Now to address Joe Rockhead's comments. First of all, who are you Joe? You write like an experienced forummer and player. You do overrate SF in ROR and highly UNDERRATE berries first.Please accept my appologies if what you said here is intented for 1v1's where booming is much less of an option and 9-10 min tools are needed.

From Joe Rockhead...

As to Paralyticus' essay, I find fault with his partiality to granaries. The granary first start is a last result with me. There are many scenarios in which the granary can be bypassed initially and I build one only when I have to (usually in order to qualify for a market).

(NK) Very rarely can you get enough food without a granary sometime in the stone age. Maybe if you're doing a 20 vil tool rush, but not for anything involving the uppers 20's vils counts I make.

Some questions to answer when deciding on build orders:

1. Is there water nearby? If yes, you owe it to yourself to explore it before committing to the granary. Two shore fish with a few straggler trees is still better than a granary. Those straggler trees could be the difference in the game if you lack trees at the TC.

(NK) Good point but if you have adequate strags by your TC simply make that granary ASAP.Later you can explore the coast and find SF or decide to dock fish. You know where the coast is and you "know" that there will be some fish there. You can later arrive at the coast when you have about 100 wood and then decide to dock and/or SF. There is no need to lose 20-30 sec vil production looking for a start that may be a bit better when you have a sure thing with granary and strags.If you haven't seen a suitable SF spot by the time you find your berries and you aren't almost stragglerless, just make that granary followed by a wood pit and proceed to dock/SF or whatever.

2. Is there forest nearby? If so, explore it and delay building. A forest at the TC with a food source within reasonable walking distance opens up a dock first strat.

(NK) I am basically have a 100% disagreement with this statement !! If you have nearby forest and find berries fast you have NO problems. You have a great spot.Start foraging ASAP and then get that wood pit and have fun. The only exploring you might do is to run that guy along the forest on the way to the granary.

(NK)How do you propose to quickly use that food source by the forest while making one dock and spending 50 wood every 27 sec for FB plus keeping up with houses while walking back wood from a receeding forest ??? You'll end up short somewhere and clearly will lose sometime getting out vils 8-12 or so. Maybe you'll lose a minute or two in vil production as you walk meat back to your TC. Soon the wood is too far away and you must pit anyhow. Surely, you cannot keep with your food demands early on while docking, FBing, housing etc. You just don't have enough vils early on.

(NK)Maybe you're Shang and lured a phant or two safely to your TC and have a huge forest 3 tiles aways. Even then, you may only be marginally better than grabbing quick berries. Other than that forget dock first if have berries and a forest.

(NK) If your close wood situation is shaky and the forest leads to the coast it may be worth a slight delay in granary building to look for that sweet spot. Simply have any vil by the berries start gathering. After 22 sec they'll have 10 food and by then you can decide to drop in off at the TC if you found that magic SF/wood pit spot.

4. Lastly, and most importantly, "How much wood do I have near the TC?". If you are short on trees at the TC then you have no choice but to find food with wood.

(NK) Very true.. but 2 nearby strags will usually allow you to be pitting wood by vil 14 and then you can make the 4th house with 2 vils at the last minute as the needed wood rolls in.

(JR)If fish, game or berries are within walking distance of the TC then use that food source and sacrifice a few seconds of delay in peon production to get some extra scouting done.

(NK) SF can be walked 3 or 4 tiles and still be prompt but other than that I am VERY unwilling to sacrifice any vil production time.

(JR)Starting with wood at a pit is a very nice advantage and one that should be coveted. A granary first start is a concession to expert players. Shore fishing and boat booming are the only ways to survive. Both of these require pits, and the sooner they're down the better.

(NK) Not totally sure which "experts" you're refering to. O4B has posted many times at GX to forget dock first and go granary anytime you aren't badly screwed for strags/forest.
We must remember that in ROR SF speed in .6 while berries/meat is .45. That SF speed is a BIG reduction from AOE's .8 and also fish that are shorefished can't be boatfished later on.

Your recommendations of more scouting and looking for "Shangri-La" may make more sence in 1v1's. However, in 3v3's where one can afford to be somewhat slower to tool/bronze to establish an large economy that will expand easily later while fighting, your suggestions may result in too much time wasted. Even on giga conti maps the coast is sometimes too far away to be scouted early on and in time to do anything with as a first building.

(JR)If Wheaties are the breakfast of champions, then berry-pickers are Wheaties %).

(NK) Berrypickers eat Wheaties because they are the champions !!

My best zone start on 3v3 conti (non Shang) was Phoe coming with the following start.

1) Quick berries w/6 foragers
2) Wood pit
3) Dock 1
4) 3 SF pit
5) Dock 2
6) Dock 3

I arrived at a 10:38 tool w/28 vils and 22 FB and having adequate food and wood to bronze jump immediately. Indeed a found berries quickly and indeed I had 2 strags and my forest was easily found 5 tiles away. Try even getting close to a start like that while dicking around hunting or docking first and ignoring the 900 or 1050 food you can get from quick berries. You'll be sadly disappointed at the results...neilkaz...

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-26-99 03:04 PM ET (US)     10 / 15       
In the ironage you normally have things pretty well fished out and few animals remain so you need to farm in general.. neilkaz.
Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 08-30-99 12:12 PM ET (US)     11 / 15       
From previous post (edited):

Neilkaz:

Now to address Joe Rockhead's comments. First of all, who are you Joe? You write like an experienced forummer and player. You do overrate SF in ROR and highly UNDERRATE berries first.Please accept my appologies if what you said here is intented for 1v1's where booming is much less of an option and 9-10 min tools are needed.

Reply:

I've been in and out of AoE/RoR since public release. Getting ready now for AoK so I'm starting to play again. Read this board from time to time but never posted much. Quality is way up from last year. New handles all the time. Noone would know me. And yes, I play primarily 1v1. No clan or regular partners so I think in terms of 1v1. I should have said that. So yes, hitting the Tool upgrade by 8 min. is my rule of thumb.


Joe:

Some questions to answer when deciding on build orders:

1. Is there water nearby? If yes, you owe it to yourself to explore it before committing to the granary. Two shore fish with a few straggler trees is still better than a granary. Those straggler trees could be the difference in the game if you lack trees at the TC.

Neilkaz:

Good point but if you have adequate strags by your TC simply make that granary ASAP...
There is no need to lose 20-30 sec vil production looking for a start that may be a bit better when you have a sure thing with granary and strags.

Reply:

I've begun not to mind a little delay at the start. I'll trade a 1 peon edge for a nice sf/wood pit. Having my woodies start immediately on a nice tight forest pit,or at worst, having 3 or 4 stragglers next to a sf pit gets me alot more wood over the long haul than being stuck with TC wood only, which becomes rather distant after the first two trees in most starts. Can you imagine letting woodies walk 8 tiles for wood at any other time? It's unreasonable. My supposition is that my shore fishers and wood pit woodies are outproducing his even though he has one more.

Joe:

Is there forest nearby? If so, explore it and delay building. A forest at the TC with a food source within reasonable walking distance opens up a dock first strat.

Neilkaz:

I am basically have a 100% disagreement with this statement !! If you have nearby forest and find berries fast you have NO problems. You have a great spot.Start foraging ASAP and then get that wood pit and have fun. The only exploring you might do is to run that guy along the forest on the way to the granary.


Reply:

OK. I have wood and food w/o building anything (this presumes berries on top of the TC). I have no problems, but I'm not trying to avoid problems, I'm trying to find edges.
Why not take a look at the forest, hoping to find water? If not, then the berries haven't gone anywhere. I might find 4 sf half a screen down on the same forest. If I gamble and lose I'm one peon down. If I gamble and win I've got a shot at something special.

As far as dock first, I admit, it's a wacky strat. I've never used it in a game I wanted to win. But with Shang/Phoen/Minoan it is remotely feasible. Bear in mind that Persia is my fav civ so I obviously have a predilection for the diverse and the bizarre

Joe:

Lastly, and most importantly, "How much wood do I have near the TC?". If you are short on trees at the TC then you have no choice but to find food with wood.


Neilkaz:


Very true.. but 2 nearby strags will usually allow you to be pitting wood by vil 14 and then you can make the 4th house with 2 vils at the last minute as the needed wood rolls in.

Reply:

I've always built house #4 off the TC wood. Maybe this explains why I look so hard for the wood pit. I'll have to try making the switch earlier. Two 75w at the TC should be 90% reliable.

Joe:


If fish, game or berries are within walking distance of the TC then use that food source and sacrifice a few seconds of delay in peon production to get some extra scouting done.

Neilkaz:


SF can be walked 3 or 4 tiles and still be prompt but other than that I am VERY unwilling to sacrifice any vil production time.

Reply:

I'm just buying time with those first three guys while the fourth scouts. 3 on sf won't cost me too much. By vil # 6 I've decided. I think the potential benefits outweigh the potential deductions

Joe:


Starting with wood at a pit is a very nice advantage and one that should be coveted. A granary first start is a concession to expert players. Shore fishing and boat booming are the only ways to survive. Both of these require pits, and the sooner they're down the better.

Neilkaz:

Not totally sure which "experts" you're refering to. O4B has posted many times at GX to forget dock first and go granary anytime you aren't badly screwed for strags/forest.
We must remember that in ROR SF speed in .6 while berries/meat is .45. That SF speed is a BIG reduction from AOE's .8 and also fish that are shorefished can't be boatfished later on.

Reply:

Well, I'm no expert, but I think of the granary start as rather a dull edged sword when competing against someone really dangerous. I want to at least give myself a chance at the super start. I don't remember how often it was used in the RoR tounament but I do remember the classic line from the ES commentator; "Matty has not touched his double berries the whole game!" heh heh

Some would argue that there is no difference between going pit/ granary and granary/pit. But I'm trying to go pit/pit/dock/ect. I would ideally like to build the granary on a distant set of bushes, leaving the TC group to the Bronze babies. And dock first is screwball, I admit.

Neilkaz:

Your recommendations of more scouting and looking for "Shangri-La" may make more sence in 1v1's. However, in 3v3's where one can afford to be somewhat slower to tool/bronze to establish an large economy that will expand easily later while fighting, your suggestions may result in too much time wasted. Even on giga conti maps the coast is sometimes too far away to be scouted early on and in time to do anything with as a first building.

Reply:

I understand completely. It makes much less sense in a 3v3. Although I still like to be the first to attack in team games. All those fb look pretty silly with no dock around But Shangri-La is, as you know, the place you want to be in 1v1. You're right though about it being less decisive in RoR. I haven't played nearly as much RoR as AoE so I'm aware I could be out of date on alot of things. But one thing hasn't changed; when you're Persian, it's time to fire up that bbq :0

(JR)If Wheaties are the breakfast of champions, then berry-pickers are Wheaties %).

(NK) Berrypickers eat Wheaties because they are the champions !!

Berrypicker to hunter, "Hey, do you smell that?"

Hunter, "Yeah, smells like berrypicker burning"

Berrypicker, "Me last berrpicker, must be me... AHHHH!!!"

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-30-99 01:13 PM ET (US)     12 / 15       
Thanx for the great reply JoeRockhead!! It is a pleasure to have another experienced player here who is a thoughtful and good writer.

I had a feeling that you were writing from a 1v1 and mostly AOE prespective and what you are saying makes perfect sence for AOE 1v1's and is quite good for ROR 1v1's.

A very key point to remember in ROR is that shorefishing speed had been reduced to .60 from the .80 in AOE. In ROR a vils takes 16.67 sec to gather 10 SF.. whereas in AOE it tool him 12.5 sec. It takes him 22.22 sec to gather 10 berries in either game. Thus in AOE shorefishing was MUCH faster than berries and worth the gamble to look for.

Another important thing in AOE is that Yassy vils moved at 1.5 tiles per sec vs 1.3 in ROR (compared to 1.1 for normal vils) Once again , assuming you are Yam or Assy in AOE.. you lose less time running resources back to the TC and exploring as well. Again, this makes everything you said make perfect sence.

Arriving at a quick powerful tool in AOE 1v1's is SO important. (It's important in ROR 3v3's as well.. but FAR more important in AOE 1v1's) In a 1v1 no one else can save you if you get hurt by an early rush.

In AOE you have no defence to a Yam scout rush if you aren't tooled and making bowmen or somehow walled them out. You have 3 very ineffective defences to an AOE Assy bowman rush if they aren't walled out in a 1v1. 1) Pray you can do more damage to his vils than he does to yours. 2) Pray you can survive with enough alive to make enough bronze cav to hurt him. 3) Somehow make more bowmen than him and live thru the fact that his bowmen are pincushioning your peons.

OOPs I forgot defence 4 to an AOE Assy bowman rush ..and this is by far the most common..RESIGN !!

Now in ROR slingers make a nice defence vs bows and in a 3v3 the tool rusher has to worry about your allies bronze aged counter attack on his tool aged town if he tool rushes.

What you've said is great and 100% correct for a AOE 1v1 where it is worth the gamble to tool faster and stronger due to many SF. However, in ROR 3v3's, I'm unwilling, and probably rightly correct, to NOT risk slowing my powerful and relatively fool proof boom strategies when I see all I need to pull it off quickly. If I screw it up looking for Shangri-La.. I end up slower and weaker and may die horribly to a tool rush or early bronze rush. If I reach Shangri-La it's nice and gives me somewhat more tool or early bronze rush capability , however by mid bronze when my boom will have a huge (I hope) military/economic machine churning which really hits someone hard.. my Shangri-La start won't make any difference. Remember that I will have used those 3SF by strags as a 2nd food source since I will have found them when I first send my 2 dock builders to the coast.

Great reply Joe,, and welcome back to this forum.. keep writing.... neilkaz...

Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 08-31-99 10:47 AM ET (US)     13 / 15       
Thanks for the kind words Neilkaz

Yes, I'm up to date on RoR changes, but not neccessarily on the strats. I'm hooked, admittedly, on sf. I'm going to have to kick the habit, I suppose. Old habits die hard.

Although with the abundance of sf now and the increased ability to put 3 on a spot sf can become a major food source rather than a complimentary one.

Lots left to learn, which is what has made this such a great game. It's ready to retire now and still going strong.

I guess we'll be starting all over again in a matter weeks.

If you see Knight_e5 on the Zone (in the Urinal) that's me. I'm on in the daytime EST. Hope to cya there...

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-31-99 11:38 AM ET (US)     14 / 15       
JoeRockhead.. Knight_e5 !! Are you in that great Knight clan or are you a chess player. e5 is chess notation. Find me on the zone as DaRq_Neil mostly and we can play ROR or Chess if you like.

....ps ... I smurf at chess to avoid constant zm's to play ROR. ...neilkaz...

Joe Rockhead
Inactive
posted 09-01-99 08:11 AM ET (US)     15 / 15       
"A great master places a knight at e5; mate follows of itself" -Tartakower

"A great blunderer quotes masters like Tartakower so to mask an inability to grasp spatial relationships" -Joe Rockhead

21...Resigns

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