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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » My palmyran strategy... (LOOONG)
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Topic Subject:My palmyran strategy... (LOOONG)
decimator04
Inactive
posted 08-22-99 06:00 PM ET (US)         
This is my palmyran strategy for HILL COUNTRY. I thought i might as well post it here since i cant get the angels to post it or answer my requests...

This is my palmyran strategy for the Hill Country map type. Hills are difficult as it is, little alone having Palmyran villagers to make. This is why I chose to master it. It gives such a challenge when you get beat that you know what to do better next time. You play that person again and again and I have finally mastered Palmyran to the best of my knowledge for hill country. The object is to not boom so much in stone (because no defenses while tooling later on) and you need to have your walls up really early. Palmyran MUST wall. That is how they survive so long, and they MUST tower.

Why Palmy? you ask...

Several reasons. Here are quiet a few...

Government center Techs.
All But logistics, Engineering, and Aristocracy.

Storage Pit Techs.
All But Tower Shield, and Metallurgy.

Granary Techs.
All Techs!

Market Techs.
All But Plow, Irrigation, Coinage, and Craftsmanship.

Temple Techs.
All But Mysticism, Polytheism, Medicine, monotheism, and martyrdom.

Civilization Attributes.
Free Tribute, Gold Per Trade Trip Doubled, Villagers Cost 50% More, Have Armor, And Work 20% Faster.
( you know how E.S. is with percentages though

Iron Age Units.
-All Stable Units Exept Cataphract.
-All Archery Units Exept Elephant Archer.
-Phalanx.
-All Siege Exept Helepolis
-Trireme, Fire Galley, Fishing Ship, and Merchant Ship.

Reasons That I Am Attracted To Palmyran.

1) Has Got to be the shier variety of units that they pack! They have every iron age unit exept the ones I have listed above! The only land unit missing is a Long Swordsman... Tell me it aint so!

2) The ability of their vils to practically consume everything in site! They gather more than 20% faster. As I will explain later on...

3) Their ability of every technology (lacking a few market techs I like) that I will ever need.

4) Heavy Horse Archers, Scythe Chariots, and Heavy Cats. This is a Tango that is untouchable...


Strategy Continued
If I haven't gotten your attention yet... Well go away! hehe. Palmyran, In My Opinion, is the strongest iron age civ. Those Fast camels waste the all siege attackers of Hittitie. The Siege can take out any other siege (practically if you dance a little

Those HHA are meaner faster and cause more damage than any other unit on the map to scale. These are awesome for an unsuspecting opponent and raiding his town killing all his vils and leaving to the next hide out before his military units even think about firing a shot at them.

Vill raiding is like killing the enemy from the inside out. If you can't beat them, donít knock on the door! Sneak in the back door... Maybe a diversion of a few siege at the front door. That way their attack buzzer goes off before you start the raid. But other than that, Horse archers are a back line fighter. Plus they donít have that good of range. They lack craftsmanship. This is a big factor. But some civs don't get HHA's so they come out about even.

You don't want to send in H.H.A.'s all by their self unless the units you are fighting are Rax (hand to hand units). They will waste them. Even Scythers... Yup I wasted Egyptian with these bad boys! Siege had my back and they had no priests is why. Horse archers are awesome for dancing and letting siege and groups of HA pick the enemy off. Oh especially legions! Oh my it is a massicare! SO lets get to the strat already!

The First few minutes are very crucial. You only get to make 2 villagers. (BOOO!) hehe. So You really have to kick it in the @$$!

Soon as you get in the game hit H CC then Take 2 Villagers Drop 1 House With the B E hot-keys. Now grab that loner vil and start exploring and drop a granary (preferably). Pitting is also an option.

Now the first 5 villagers go on food. 6-14 go on wood (thatís 8 smarty) and then the rest go on food until I decide to stop. This is kind of a judgment call on where to stop...

Picture this. It takes, on the over side a bit, 2 minutes to tool. Okay so you need to start at least at 10. If you want a 12 tool time...

My Calculations:
It takes ROUGHLY with perfect berries 2 tiles from the granary 1:10 minutes for 15 Palmyran Vils to gather 500 food!!!! are you as amazed as I am! I did this test and was shocked... So I did a test on regular villagers to see how much time it takes them.

Here are the results...

On 15 Egyptian Villagers collecting the exact same berries. It takes them 2:00 minutes to gather 500 food. If I did my math right thatís 50 seconds faster! This is truly an advantage.

Palmy vils are almost as fast on berries as Egyptian vils are on fish. This goes for every resource on the map! Okay lets see if we can figure out the percentages (oh boy I hate math but look here... IM USING IT!)
Okay here are the times for each villager to collect food:

1 Palmy Villager 2 tiles away (non-obstructed walk) take 16 seconds to gather and deliver.

1 Egyptian Villager 2 Tiles away (non-obstructed walk) takes 22 seconds to gather and deliver.

That is 6 seconds faster. Now it takes 75 food for a villager. So 5 Villagers on food will be 36 seconds faster. (this is getting in deep). SO Palmyran villagers take just 4 seconds more to get than a regular villager. If my calculations are correct. Is palmy that much slower? Or should they be considered a fast civ!
Palmyran Vils pay for them selves in the long run.


After The five Minute Mark.

At the 5 minute mark, with a good spot (meaning straggler trees close by) You should have your wood pit in operation. The next 240 wood go to a storage pit and a granary by food. You will HAVE TO HUNT. There is no getting around it in Hill Country. Thatís why i have included my hunting guide. Make Sure that you get a granary also. As you will need to wall in tool age and tower.

From Villager 14 - 17 are your stone miners. Or select 3 later in the game to stone mine if you are behind. But start stone mining with 3-4 at least by the eight minute mark to have enough stone to wall heavily. One game my economy was doing very well and I put 9 on stone and i had a lot of stone, but it was quickly used. With towers and walls. When you wall use the trees, forests, cliffs and ruins to help you. They are indestructable (exept trees by heavy cats in iron) And make a big tile of your territory to be able to spread out within it. I keep all my resources inside this wall and sometimes the enemies (or allies LOL) resources. That gives you an idea of how far out my wall stretches. If you broke a Huge map into 9 tiles mine would cover 1 - 1 1/2 of those. That is basically YOUR terrain anyway.

Now go and read [link]http://www.homestead.com/legionsofglory/hunting.html[/link] And the [link]"http://www.homestead.com/legionsofglory/walling.html"[/link]I have posted. These are both very good articles.


Tool Age.
Tool Age is the most crucial part of Palmyran. It decides if you live or die.

As soon as you hit tool age que up 4-6 more villagers.

Build a Market, research wood working, stone mining, gold mining, domestication, in that order. Build an archery, and tower up with those 4 villagers. While those vils are in the making grab 2 villagers (1 for short parts) and wall up in between the trees and everywhere else to make a big square or circle or rectangle or what ever you have to but, GET THE WALLS UP!

If you donít wall kiss you butt good-bye. I don't care if you are sellin' towers on a whole sale... They only sit still... Those archers might out range them, or even be able to destroy them.

After a villager gets done with his wall segment make him build a farm. And put 3 of those new villagers on gold and have the other one be your builder, for houses, archerys, stables ETC.

The reason I had you build an archery with Palmy is because you can get 4-6 tool archers with those towers and wipe out an early bronze attacker. With early I mean 18-20 Minute attack on you. If all has went well with food you should be ready to tool in no time! Yea no time hehe... HURRY!

This strat takes a while to master, I haven't yet. But I do know what I am supposed to do. You should alternate from low wood to low food. This will go on the entire game. I have never played a civ this hard before. It seems you are behind, yet you are ahead! Your wood goes 45 , but you have 15 farms... WELL DUH it will be low but watch the food start to role in. Then your wood will get back up and food goes down because you just qued up 4 vils and researched a couple more techs.

What i would suggest is tower well and make layers of walls... NO! not touching.... Break your big walled part into sections with trap doors to escape. This is VERY effective on your enemy. If you see he is coming shoot through the hole wall it and split your vils up on the resources and get going again. By this time you should have ally assistance and even have your own army. When the enemy is gone fix the walls and you are good to go again. No Damage (or minimal anyway).


Bronze Age.

Now you thought you had resources LOL not any more. Get villagers, villagers, and more villagers. Palmys economy is so strong that you need alot of villagers to bring out the true potential... The most I have gotten so far is 84. This is almost enough. That game I was not touched until iron age, well a little scwable on the gold mine outside but me and Spiritreaveer took them NP. I ironed at 38 Min. This is good considering i made enough resources in those 3 minutes to iron again as soon as i got iron I researched every market tech available and researched cats, and chain mail. Then i cranked about 20 HA(horse archers) and 6 siege for defense while i went to heavy cats and Heavy Horse Archers (HHA). Needless to say thanks to Spirit who took the heat while all this went on. Then I took over while he ironed. And we (should I say it?) decimated them!

Oh man the victory was great over a hittitie and a Summy. They both got spanked WHILE in iron with their most powerful units. Scythe Chariots and Siege and Horse Archers. It was a good fight. Thatís when I was born opon Palmy.
Defenses In bronze are as this... (unless under heavy attack) But then you still need to iron. 10-12 Compies 6-8 Camels and about 4 siege will keep them out for you to iron so just concientrate on economy while steadily building your defenses. Make at least 60 villagers! You have one hell of a army too feed in iron age so get ready before you head off in the wild blue yonder.


Iron Age.

It is all up to you now You can do anything you want with Palmy, esspecialy if you lived this long.... Good Luck And See Ya On The Zone. If you beat me with this strat...
Donít rub it in.. j/k

-II_DeCiMaToR_II
ICQ: 43959811


Thank you for reading my strategy. Hope to see you on the zone!

AuthorReplies:
pineapple314
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 10:25 AM ET (US)     1 / 19       
I play a strategy similar to that, except I wait until I've clicked the bronze button before I start researching in the market. With Palmy, I've gotten a 13 minute bronze before, and on medium resources an 11 1/2 minute bronze. My strategy is similar to yours, but I research in the bronze instead of the tool. This way I can use camels as defense against chariots or cavalry while I build my economy up for a massive iron attack.
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 12:41 PM ET (US)     2 / 19       
Its nice to see Palmy getting some air time. A few comments from my experiences with them (and RoR in general).

1. It is impossible to put 15 villagers on 6 "perfect" berry bushes. They will be running into each other, rendering the entire simulation of dubious value.

2. Palmy berries are faster than Egyptian shore fish. Not your imagination, well documented several times before.

3. Palmy gather berries at 0.65 per second. Other civs gather at 0.45 per second. This means that they are effectively 44% faster, and 50% more expensive, so they are just a tad slower when cranking villagers. When you are getting resources for advancement, they can't be beaten, with the same time-investment in villagers. So you could look at it as you essentially need the same number of villagers on food as any non-shang civ. But you must also remember that the berry patch will be gone 44% faster, so you need to get a new food source 44% sooner.

4. Palmys definitely pay for themselves in the "long run" as long as you consider the "long run" the Bronze age. Remember they don't get the most important econ upgrades, and the concomitant +25% gold, and the +1 range and +2 carrying capacity, so in Iron age, you essentially have some high-priced second-rate workers.

5. "6-14 go on wood (thatís 8 smarty)" Actually, that makes 9, but who's counting?

6. I didn't follow you, exactly. Are you suggesting just sim citying until you Iron? No bronze attacking? Just defending? Most people (myself included) have only been able to do much with them in a non-slingshot only by going heavy offense in Bronze (when they are no worse off than any other civ) and go Iron only if necessary (when they are definitely field a second rate army)

7. Lacking engineering definitely puts their siege at a disadvantage. Lacking craftsmanship puts their HA at a disadvantage. Lacking metallurgy puts their scythes at a disadvantage. If not for Jihad and Astrology, I wouldn't even build a temple.

8. There is going to be a gap while you collect 25 food for your next villager, anyway, so why put 2 on the house? May as well just give yourself a 2 second gap between 4 and 5 and have the extra time for exploration, because, as you mention, if you don't find food, you are in a world of hurt.

The bottom line is that in Iron they have to flood with a larger number of inferior units, and with the exception of a 12% bonus in farming speed, their economy has been emasculated, making them unable to produce the 15%-35% more units to match your opponents'

Thanks for the link to walling. It is one of my weaknesses, and I will definitely have to get better at it if I plan to play RTS over the next couple years... BTW, if you want to post it, or don't mind just a direct link, I'd like to put it in the One-Stop Strategy Links.. Let me know.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Wuzat
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 01:47 PM ET (US)     3 / 19       
for some reason the walling link wont work...

------------------
The Village Wierdo/Schizophrenic Strikes Again!

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 02:22 PM ET (US)     4 / 19       
Yeah, I noticed that the walling one wasn't active, too. I figured he just hadn't uploaded it yet, as several people post the links to pics before they upload the pics...

Keep your stick on the ice.

Thinker42
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 02:55 PM ET (US)     5 / 19       
My tests confirm the .65 berries per second and I get .75 shore fish. I get .55 shore fish with Egypt which makes Palmy 36% faster there. One thing I wonder is why not use those fast camels at bronze to hit the opponent's vills. Yes they may be walled in themselves but if that is the case then you will have plenty of time to iron and build a strong force. It is also easier to get an armored vill out exploring and forward building because you have less to worry about dangerous fauna. Not that I know anything about Palmy - I got them in a random civ 2v2 recently and although I made it to iron I still got beat (might have been closer if my partner's computer hadn't decided to shut down ROR shortly after bronze)
decimator04
Inactive
posted 08-23-99 06:04 PM ET (US)     6 / 19       
hey about the walling strat... i dont know where it got off too but the whole page is missing, i really dont have time to re-write it guys. My appoligies. I thank you Thorfin for your add ons, much appreciated bro We need to get together and play on the zone some time. Ill have to post my hunting strat here, but most advanced players know how it is to be done... Tell me if you would like it up! Ill most likely have time for that guide.

Pineappl314

Don't humor me that way man. Are you counting that bronze time as when you HIT the button or when you ARRIVE?

Give me a break man i cant even get that fast of a bronze with yam!

I must be clueless as to how to make an extremely fast bronze like the computers on multiplayer on hardest. Like they get a 4 minute tool and 9 min bronze... Give me a break! Do i hear Trainer? lol

I have one question about computer AI's...

Do they have infinate resources and a build plan? or what is the deal they drop a gran, pit and 4 houses!

Thank you all for your coments,
-Dec

Wascally_Wabbit
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 06:43 PM ET (US)     7 / 19       
Although I have no upbuilding comments to make (terribly sorry old chap), I would like to point out that the government centre, market and storage pit are hardly reasons to go for Palmyran. It just looks like that's what you're saying...
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 07:12 PM ET (US)     8 / 19       
Well, as the self-proclaimed Palmyran expert, I have to say...WTF?! Going for iron? Why? Other civs can pull that off much better IMHO.

I posted a strat a while back. IT mainly involved doing low villager count, 13-14 bronzes with enough res to either go economy or early rushing.

I've pulled of a 12 minute palmyran bronze before. Needless to say, I ruled that game

I've also pulled off a 13:30 bronze after fighting a minor tool skirmesh with D_Yer_Maker(Read, 4 scouts, 5 slingers and a villie lost on my part).

Palmy's Iron is fairly weak man. They have bad priests, and that means Ele armies are out. They have decent scythes, but hittite, shang, rome, and egypt have better ones. Their Siege is inferior. Camels arn't Crap to SC. HHA are done better by Hittite, And Yamato. Nothing that truely shines. However, They do have almost everything, jus tinferior versions of it.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-23-99 09:27 PM ET (US)     9 / 19       
Shoot. Maybe you have a rough draft, decimator04? Honestly, I do need work on my walling as it will be necessary over the next couple years (hint, hint...)

As for a 13 minute bronze, until recently, my best time was 12:26 for a Palmy Gig Medit map with a heavy boat boom. I beat it with an upper 11 Persia the other day. I have never bronzed Shang before mid 13s...

Elijeh, nice to see ya again. I think that's kinda why he mentioned that he Ironed at 38. I didn't see it explicitly stated, but I assume there was lotsa tribbing and lotsa fighting...

Gotta go.

Keep your stick on the ice.

admstx7
Clubman
posted 08-24-99 03:17 AM ET (US)     10 / 19       
deci-
yes, that was the time he arrived at bronze, pineapple314 is a superstar with palmy. I haven't been able to replicate his times, but i have seen him do it. think of it this way:
-yamato villagers walk 30% faster
-palmyran villagers do everything else 20% faster, including build, attacking, berry picking, stone mining
-yamato has to mine their gold
-palmyran needs 2 or 3 trade boats in the stone age and that's all the gold they'll ever need, freeing up 5-6 villagers for farming/hunting/berry picking for the mere price of 200-300 wood.
-palmyran needs less villagers, so you can spend your tc time advancing through the ages instead of pumping out villagers.
are you starting to see? yamato is an excellent civ, in fact, they're one of my faves, but pineapple314 can and will dominate you in every age.
ANNIHIL8
Inactive
posted 08-24-99 08:47 AM ET (US)     11 / 19       
ADMSTX7 I a few questions for you. What in the stone age can you be trading for gold? "WOOD", do you not need as many boats as possible with palmy? "STONE", that is a must with palmy so you can put up your wall. "FOOD", I do not think so, if you have the extra food you should go to next age, or build more men. I can not see myself trading untill late Iron. But if this works for you more power to you.


------------------
THE NEW BREED HAS ARRIVED

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 08-24-99 11:31 AM ET (US)     12 / 19       
admstx7
quote:
"-palmyran villagers do everything else 20% faster, including build, attacking, berry picking, stone mining"
Wrong. Palmy villagers get the bonus only to collection rates. Not attack, not build, not walking, not scouting. Collection only. But at least early on it is much better than 20%.
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/jerde/ror-res.html
quote:
-palmyran needs 2 or 3 trade boats in the stone age and that's all the gold they'll ever need, freeing up 5-6 villagers for farming/hunting/berry picking for the mere price of 200-300 wood.
Actually, if you can set up trading at an optimal 20/75 dock, with 3 boats, at best you should be getting somewhere around 1.5 gold per second, at a cost of about 0.4 resources per second. That means you net 1.1 gold per second, about the equivalent of 1.7 gold miners. In the best possible situation, trading is very close to the worst way of generating resources, somewhere around a net of 0.4 per second. But it is a way of converting resources to a more needed format.

Anyway, early on, rather than spending 300 wood on boats, I would rather drop 120 on a gold pit and gather gold directly. The same 4 villagers would gather at a nominal rate of 2.6 gold per second as opposed to the net 1.1 via trading. Once you get gold mining, those same 4 villagers gather at a nominal rate of 3.8 gold per second!

quote:
-palmyran needs less villagers, so you can spend your tc time advancing through the ages instead of pumping out villagers.
This is true, however, remember that it follows the law of diminishing returns. Since the bonus is a constant, its relative value decreases as the base increases. Their bronze resource collection speed is basically equivalent to any other civ's Iron, but then they get no bonuses after that, other than for stone, which has kind of run out of usefulness other than for making and defending a wonder. So by the time they hit Iron, they are no longer econ powerhouses. They are pretty much plain-jane workers.
quote:
pineapple314 can and will dominate you in every age (with Palmy).
That I have got to see. I would love to watch a game to see what I am doing wrong. If they are truly the powerhouses that you say, I would certainly like to see them in action.

Incidentally, maybe pineapple314 would post his strategy so we could all try it out. Please?

Keep your stick on the ice.

admstx7
Clubman
posted 08-30-99 10:38 AM ET (US)     13 / 19       
of course trade stone for gold. there is no reason you NEED to put up a wall, but if you WANT to, wall tiles only cost 5 stone, and most wall builders (i'm not one of them) build between forests so they can save stone walling off an entire field. You start with 150 stone, and let's be nice and say you use 50 walling in (10 tiles). you still have 100 for trading purposes, and by the time you've blown this, you should have a big enough econemy to trade wood. Palmy doesn't suck gold as bad as Hittite, ecept for the ha and eles. the rest is scythes, ca, throwers, camels (not too bad on gold compared to an all elephant archer/catapult army)
second. Palmyran villager do build faster. normally, i put all four villagers into my tc, and put 2 guys to build a house, completing it just as the villager is made(usualy, but this can be my physical error). but with palmy, i put in the two, send one to build a house, and the other two right for food. works the same way. I'm not claiming to be as good as pineapple with palmyran, but i've played them enough to realise that even people who like palmy don't realise all their advantages.
third. in late iron palmy shines. this might seem odd, but horse archers and villagers realy clean up. Palmy gets jihad, and with that +1 armor, nothing short of an elephant can touch them, and that's why you have horse archers.
palmyran might not get phoenician's wood bonus all through the game, but otherwise they are equal or superior to everyone else. tied with egypt, tied with babs, and Palmyran does something faster that no one else does, or even gets any sort of speed bonus for for that matter, and this is farming. Allthough they only get domestication, their farmers make up for the poor farms. they get food in fast enough to make more villagers to cut wood to rebuild your farms which last no time at all.
i'll tell pineapple to post his palmy strategy, but he is a lazy SOB so it'll probably take some convincing, or ransom, or blackmail or something the get him out of the living room.
decimator04
Inactive
posted 09-09-99 12:45 PM ET (US)     14 / 19       
Just bringing it back up to the top to be viewed by others...
-Dec

now i go by MonK_DeCiMaToR_

Mark_Aurel
Clubman
posted 09-09-99 12:57 PM ET (US)     15 / 19       
Nice post, Decimator. Also nice to see you're still around. Too bad I won't be able to play with you again for a while - you're a ver capable player.

(Just one thing is that I'd rather go all-out in Bronze with a Palmy Camel/Compie [Palmy do get Compies, right? I forget...] combo than go for a quick Iron)

decimator04
Inactive
posted 09-10-99 12:38 PM ET (US)     16 / 19       
Hey man nice to see you again finnally!

Yes i have played them with both scenario games. It really is up to the player. I mean they collect resources so fast they can support an awesome army and still iron while ither civs like minoan are diggin for that extra here and there to iron.

I hope to see you online... why havent you been on?

-Dec

MonK_DeCiMaToR_

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 09-11-99 05:03 AM ET (US)     17 / 19       
I think I may have made a crucial error in my tournament. No one should have to play Palmy in a 1 vs 1. You are dead in the water without a lifejacket. What good is is a paltry 20% gathering advantage when the damn things cost 50% more. Like everyone here says, by the time you you make up the difference, they have lost their advantage. The only advantage Palmy has is that its harder to find the vills because there are so few of them.

A truly abominable civ in 1 vs 1 IMHO and I wouldn't want them in a team game either for that matter. Ensemble should offer a rebate for including them in the game.

Nice strat. guide though.

Thinker42
Clubman
posted 09-11-99 11:00 PM ET (US)     18 / 19       
Even though it says 20% it is really more like 45%. I don't mind Palmy at all. Once I realized I only needed 75% of the normal number of vills to get to bronze I have made decent bronze times. Actually, I am just a likely to get beat while playing Hitt, Mino, Phoen as playing Palmy so I guess my opinion is very humble. Can't wait to get back to playing.
Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 09-12-99 10:27 AM ET (US)     19 / 19       

Great strategy!! Thank you so much for making the time to write a palmy guide.

I always get a kinda sick feeling when in a random game palmy becomes mine! In the early game because the vills are so EXPENSIVE, i make the mistake of sending only one to scout lion food

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