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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » How do u beat minoan w/ phony&roman on Cont, Med...
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Topic Subject:How do u beat minoan w/ phony&roman on Cont, Med...
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Clubman
posted 01-04-99 09:15 PM ET (US)         
i find it extremely hard to beat minoan...once they get compies , it's just hard!

compies upgrade are so cheap considering your fishing boats just pour in food for ya and smart player just wall in and buy some time until they have compies. It's impossible to tranny too cuz minoan will have warships guard their coastline.

If i beat a minoan...that's because they don't boom or they don't wall.
Typical situaion when i use phony against minoan and win:

i use some cam and CA to kill some villagers first. and once they get reasonable amount of compies(it's not hard to mass them at all!)i quckily go iron to get SC. But i don't think it's possible against a good player.


Typical situation when i use minoa and win against whatever:

i boom to 50 villie/boats and get bronze by 16. I fight on sea once in tool and i usually can get a tie if not winning. I use the spare resource to get the compies upgrade(sometimes i do camel strike first if i have the res.) and once i get compies...there is no way people can penetrate my defense both on land and sea.(compies is excellent at defending against wargalleys)
Then i pump some STs and go attack...i usually get upper hand since minoan comp+ST is such a ******to beat..then go iron if i have spare resource.


i hardly use Roman but i assume they are worse than phony against minoa.

any comments/suggestions pls?


AuthorReplies:
Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 01:39 AM ET (US)     1 / 13       
ST ST ST ST is the key! A couple of Stone thrower mixed with a couple of "I am here to die" units (CAs works great) will perfectly kill these annoying compies. I did it tonight! God these compies are cheap! I love them for defense. I leave a lot of them among my villies... anything approching to kill my villies will get some arrows somewhere... The tough thing about minoan compies is they shoot farther than A ST with the wood upgrades... that sucks... A couple of your ST will do "crounch" pretty quickly... damn they're cheap these compies...

A stone thrower does 50 of damage. A compie have 45 Hit points. With the small area of damage, your stone will kill 2 compies at the same time... Do not make all your STs to shoot the same compie at the same time. I know it is difficult to do but, it is going to be as hard for him to split his compies on your STs as you to split your STs on a single compie. you want a trick to make ST without even thinking about it?
Here it goes CTRL-K/C CTRL-K/C CTRL-K/C CTRL-K/C Ok, you got 4 ST coming and you lost 3 seconds to produce them

cool hen? Learn all the hotkeys for all the buildings and all the units and your game level will improve so quickly you wont believe it! Lets verify your knowledge, what do you need to type to cycle thru your stables??

I hope I helped, if not, sorry...

Phil




Ender
Guest
posted 01-05-99 08:14 AM ET (US)     2 / 13       
Roman can beat minoan easily once they hit iron, roman iron gets pretty much everything minoan does, plus scythe chariots. With phoenician you have to build a wonder to win, problem is phoenicians big weakness is helepolis and a good minoan player can get them before you kill him usually. Vs composite bowmen build stone throwers, your wood bonus is better than +2 range composites.


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 09:50 AM ET (US)     3 / 13       
Stone Throwers work well if Sumerian (tops) or Hittite (next), but Mace's are great also (1/2 cost...).
But you need a BIG bunch of them - and many will die.

I tried the Sumerian variety two days ago. I KNEW he was coming at me with the damn Compies, but what could I do?... There was not much room to spread... The Minoan was my neighbor and, worse, I knew he was only moderatelly booming - I should expect Scout Ships in Tool, which happened. I figured well, so I had a small fishing fleet in the opposite side (near my ally, in the place where land breaks near shallows) and another one far away in the break between my two allies - only the first dock and 3 boats was in the big pond.
This was lost soon, but I could concentrate in hunting and berries in advance (even close to my nearest ally) so I managed to have a decent Tool and a not too shabby bronze, with LOTS of WOOD & GOLD. I really went mad on both resources, knowing that I would be taken away from them (especially gold) as soon as Compies would arrive. My mild attempt at walling in produced no visible result, except from 3 dead villagers (ouch) he had 2 upgraded Scouts on them very soon (Food was abundant in that side of the World...) and here they come, some 17+ Compies and 3 ST, as well as a mean pair of Cav.

I had, at the time, 5 Siege Workshops and 8 ST at the door, plus 5 ST about 65% complete (they take FOREVER to build), so the 8 ST would have to take on the bulk of the heat.
And so they did! I gave priority to killing Cavs and it costed a whooping 5 of them, but, meanwhile, I managed to queue some 3 more and the 5 finally came out, joining the 3 wounded (which died soon), but the 9 (I managed to just queue one more and the remaining 3, plus the 5 late braves) managed to repel the Compies and ST in their entirety - not without more losses - in the end, I had not more than 3 moderatelly wounded and a seriously injured ST standing. Had to make a Priest

This was a very expensive battle.

It proves the net worth of the combined army made of Compies as main, St and Cav as auxiliary.

Please note: My ST did it because they were Sumerian. No others could have had the ROF needed to avoid more damage.

Also, it only makes sense to make so many ST is they will have a later use (of course they would turn into Cats later

But have you noticed the enormous amount of resources that I've spent?

I was fortunate - the gold patch was way back into my camp and the wood was coming from a forest a good 30 tiles away (a bit exposed, but I had to keep gathering).

The final balance saw me with 7 boats (meanwhile attacked and gone) having kept my food chest up to 700+, my gold almost all spent (had some 80 or 90, I recall) and wood in the last of the very last little chips...

I really could not endure more, had the attack been continued with, say, 3 or 4 Cav. Only the fact that the Minoan opponent ran out of reources can explain my survival.

I still had to gather some 1,500 Gold until I could go iron with some relative safety - and I had to mine some stone to improvise a little fencing...

Whew!...

Composite armies are ALMOST invencible in Bronze. I am not convinced at all that I could repeat the survival act another time...



Nineveh
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 11:57 AM ET (US)     4 / 13       
As far as I can see you'll never defeat a compy army with anything except Mace (Compies+Hops+ST). So dont even bother trying...head straight for iron if you havent hurt him much by 21 min. EA are Phonny's best chance against Heles although Compies do a nice job vs EA (Range bonus+cheap cost+concentrated fire) esp with a few balistas.

Roman can take Minoan with Heavy Cats for his Cats/Heles and Scythes for everything else.

I believe Hittite ST are better vs Comps, more HP gives them better odds of getting a second shot. 75 HP ST get absolutely splattered by compies...a lucky Sumerian ST gets 2 shots. Maybe 5 Sumerian ST can do some serious damage, but thats 900 wood and 400 gold!

BTW camels have a nasty habit of ripping ST also.


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 03:35 PM ET (US)     5 / 13       
1) Rome has as good an economy as mino on watery maps and better w/little water so Rome should easily bronze w/mino. I have hit minoans w/surprise cav rushes before they finish the compie upgrades and damaged them. They rarely have enough stables to get enough camels. If the mino walls in or not you can wall in and make ST's (10 range) to at least sow up range 11 bronze comps.
Once you iron Rome and get cats his comp's influence becomes much less. Now you go cat/ballista w/scythes to charge into him and hassle him. What does he use to charge? Only gold intensive cav/camels... and i didn't even mention the Roman legion idea since I almost always play Rome w/siege/scythe.
2) Phoe has to hurt mino quickly and can often due that due to phoe's superb economy early. As phoe, hassle mino early. if you don't tool him somewhat.. attack w/CA's and an ST to smash his walls, get CA's into his camp before he has a compie horde. Fight him hard on sea. Phoe can also iron first and get scythe plus cheap phants. If mino gets cranking into late iron w/10 Hcats/15 hele's phoe can start looking for an undertaker !So hurt mino before mid iron or suffer as phoe !Don't forget towers as phoe to at least slow mino up a bit as needed .. not to mention phoe's good priests !


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 04:17 PM ET (US)     6 / 13       
Assuming you iron before the minoan, I find that elephant archers/stone throwers work really well against minoan comps. Many minoans stay bronze too long and keep on making comps. This is what you want . Phoenie has no chance against 12 range hellies. Thats the only units the minoans need in iron against any non cat civ.


Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 06:02 PM ET (US)     7 / 13       
I agree the STs are really expensive, but they do the job when mixed with some sacrificial units (that can also protect STs against melee units)...

IMO, (excluding any range bonuses or ROF bonuses), ST is the key against compies. If the compies are minoan, then it is more difficult. If the STs are Sumer or Hitties, it re-equilibrate things. If the STs are Sum or Hitties and the compies are not minoan, then it's easier. Whatsoever, against compies, you need STs, regardless of the civ taken, regardless of the game played (RoR/AoE)...

Phil



Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 01-06-99 12:50 PM ET (US)     8 / 13       
Well, in my reply above, I was focusing on Bronze Age.

In Iron, ASSUMING NO SIGNIFICANT DELAY and NO SIGNIFICANT CRIPPLING FROM BRONZE WARS (that is: both parties, ours and the Minoan's) reach Iron in basically the same economic status), then the following holds true:

Hittite wins (better Cats + Scythes + Elephants + Horse archers)

Sumerian wins (better Cats + Scythes + Elephants + Horse archers)

Roman wins (Scythes + same Siege combo)

Greek may or may not win (same Siege combo, but Hoplites/Phalanx could perhaps be insufficient to counterbalance the still standing Compies in a wood shortage period)

All Elephant-based or Academy-based Civs lose (Helepolis = machine guns .

All sucky-siege Civs lose. Cat + Helepolis Siege with Engineering rules!

Macedonian MAY win if: Managed to mine more Gold + manages to soak Helepolis damage with Horse archers and Elephants while Academy closes in from another direction.
After Minoan Siege is defeated, they are in HUGE trouble (Romans share same problem, but Scythes eventually may help here).
Tough call, anyway!...

[This message has been edited by Your_Old_Friend (edited 01-06-99).]

King Crash
Inactive
posted 01-06-99 03:37 PM ET (US)     9 / 13       
Old_Friend,
I can agree that Hittie and Sumerian win, if left unmolested and equal resources, but that is a stretch given Minoa's strength in Bronze.

But I really have a hard time with the assertion that Rome beats Minoa. If I'm playing a Roman, I know how weak he is in Bronze and I'm not going to stop hitting him once I find him. He will probably never make iron, and if he does, I don't think he's going to have the wood for the 3 super upgrades plus the wood for the scythes themselves..., maybe if I never find him in th first place, but

Scythes Upgrade + Cat Upgrade + Engineering + Scythes + Cats = Major wood

...I should have heavy cats and 40 or more Compies to protect them well before you get this much stuff...and if I see you going for scythes...I'll forgo the heavy cats and go Helis, and it is all over.

KC

[This message has been edited by King Crash (edited 01-06-99).]

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 04:03 PM ET (US)     10 / 13       
"POW" works against massed compies... BTW, doesn't it just break your heart to see the baby sitting on the ground after his trike has been destroyed?

Seriously, tho, if you are on water map and go Iron first, as you mentioned, save your wood from the SC upgrade. Cat 'remes think compies are very tasty. Range is even, counting splash, and if you spend equivalent amounts of resources (1 cat 'reme for every 3.5 compies), they will make short work of the compies. With all the resources you save, you can make them jugs just to add injury to injury.

[[Oh, that and work on his fishing boats in tool. IMO, an unmolested fishing fleet is a huge asset and an even bigger liability for the opponents...]]

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 01-06-99).]

Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 01-07-99 06:49 AM ET (US)     11 / 13       
To King Crash:

What you say is a consequence of not understanding the mechanics of a Roman vs. Minoan confrontation in Iron.

Minoan's Bronze is vastly superior, but we were assuming that a Bronze age confrontation had not taken place, remember?... I can Iron with Roman in a Medit map in as little as 25-30 minutes AVERAGE and reach Iron with at least 800 Food and 1200 wood also ON AVERAGE.

Now, for Roman-Minoan strat.

When plaing against a helepolis Civ (like Minoan or Greek) I keep ballistas handy always (they defend me against Academy and Cav).

But I shift the focus the super-units a lot.

The priority order is (normally):
Ballistas (lots)
Cats (few)
Helepolis Upgrade
Scythe upgrade
Heavy Cat upgrade (eventually)
Scythes (eventually)

This assumes a "standard" steamroller approach, Siege-based slow motion sweeping.

Against Civs with a Similar Combo, you do it diffferently.

What I do here is SHIFT the priorities and offensive combo mix.


The priority order is then changed to:

Cats (lots)
Ballistas (some - enough for a Camel-Academy-Cav defense only)
Scythe upgrade
Scythes
Heavy Cat Upgrade
Helepolisupgrade (eventually)

Playing Roman, I also (since Tool) dedicate 3/5 of the workforce to WOOD, 1/5 to Gold and 1/5 to Food. Wood always flowing in.
After all, I will be going Siege and it is no fun to have the building and the upgarde ... and no wood to build actual units, LOL!

Number of Villies always very high, too!

If you switch to Helepolis, then you make my Cats even more valuable and your Heleoplis even more defenseless. You NEED HCATS to counter my Cats.
AND the units that you have against my Cats (Cavs+Camels) are all gold-driven - and all pretty pathetic against my Ballistas.

meanwhile, I will be doing one or more of the following (depending on what you do):

Killing your Helpolis with my Cats.
Killing your Catapults with my Scythes
Killing your Cavs / Camels with my Ballistas (or helepolis)
Killing any left-over Compies you may have with my Cats.

Eventually, gold ENDS - and suddenly your Minoan turns into Mr. Axeman / Mr. Bowman.

Oh, I am still Mr. Bigshot-Scythe

In the seas, then, you may STILL have the lead.

But, once I kill all the Docks with Siege, from the land, you are pretty much reduced to non-replaceable units....

That is why Roman Iron is better (way better) than Minoan Iron.

I hope I gave a good enough explanation.


Ender
Guest
posted 01-07-99 06:56 AM ET (US)     12 / 13       
If I'm rome and your minoan you'll be dead in tool age, or at least relocated, then I shoot straight for iron and hit it about the time you get comps.


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 01-07-99 09:20 AM ET (US)     13 / 13       
YOU do that, old fox, hehe...

I will be extremelly lucky if I can have his Composites kill dead wood, have my boats hidden in an out-of-the-way channel and all my woodies and goldies tucked away far, far from my TC and a few farms going, to speed up the process.

That's how I live and keep living AFTER I am Bronze-rushed by Phoenicians, Assyrians, Yamatos, Minoans, and whoever else, all manage to put up Bronze armies and rush the poor Roman, forward build near him, etc.

The number of comebacks (on my own, no tribute from Allies) is already a record, I think.
Of course, this spreading technique is only useful in Gigantic and Huge maps, mainly Mediterranean. In Coastal or Inland, I tend to make better use of seas than most of my opponents.

Anyway, for me, Tool rushing, Bronze rushing, etc., are only DREAMS.

I play to get to Iron and win there.

The Civ that has given me that goal most consistently is Roman.

As Roman, I never made Rax nor a single Tower...

75% of the games I only use Siege, in the other 25% I may also employ Scithes, and when I do, I do it heavilly.

I realy tink the Roman (if the Player accepts that Roman Bronze is a joke and full of risks) can be plaid to win.

How else could I?...


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