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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Misconceptions about the Greeks
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Topic Subject:Misconceptions about the Greeks
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Local_Yokel
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 09:45 AM ET (US)         
I've read that many people say that Greece is the slowest civ. I really don't think so. They have the same economic bonuses, and sometimes more, than many other civs. Although
they have no inherent(sp?) economic bonuses such as Phoenie woodcutting, Shang villagers, or Persian hunting, neither do many other civs. I don't see why Greece is any slower than Carthage, or Hittite or Macedonia or many others. I bet if people tried, or cared, they could play Greece as fast as the others. Besides, fast academy is kind of cool (especially with aristocracy) and faster warships are great against fire galleys. Besides, we all love dual siege Another complaint is their weak bronze.
Take a look at Rome's bronze and I have seen some of the best players on the Zone tear up the field with them.

Although not my top choice, I don't moan when I get Greek in random. I enjoy working with the big guns.

-Local_Yokel

AuthorReplies:
Mark_Aurel
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 11:15 AM ET (US)     1 / 42       
Greeks aren't so bad --- once you get to Iron. However, the point is that Greeks are slow. Not any slower than the civs you mention (except for Mace, who may have a 3-second advantage or something to that effect due to the extended LOS). The main problem with Greeks, however, is that they have a very poor Bronze Age. Having fast Hoppers is no compensation at all, since their Hoppers will still be slaughtered by archers and Priests. All other civs have at least Impies to defend themselves in Bronze.

Most games are decided in Bronze Age, one way or another. Greeks are the worst civ of all in Bronze Age. Surviving to get to Iron can be very hard (and will be very hard, if you play with players of any competence).

Talon
Inactive
posted 08-18-99 11:54 AM ET (US)     2 / 42       
1 tiny thing...Greek gets marginally faster Fishing Boats.
Washizu
HG Alumnus
(id: Angel Washizu)
posted 08-18-99 12:08 PM ET (US)     3 / 42       
Greeks have a real tough time when the holy men come to town. No chariots and no econ bonuses mean that they have a real tough time stopping a bronze age attack.
Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 08-18-99 12:18 PM ET (US)     4 / 42       
Talon Greece doesn't have faster fishing boats the bonus is to their fighting ships. The bonus is underrated as it allows you to flee when you need to with your SS for instance. You find enemy dock faster 2. New boats join the boat fleet faster too which could help. It's quite cool in my opinion.
When I play Greece I try to build up a big ST army and have those protected by my Hoplite (for which I get bronze age shield). Thinking about helos and cats combo is too risky because if you play with the idea to build up such a expensive iron army you will get whiped out real fast. Greece needs to wall because their troop can't come back in defense because of their slowness.
A cavs rush often works 2 but with no camels you have to watch out for sure.
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 01:20 PM ET (US)     5 / 42       
Greece is a very lousy civ in good players 3v3's just like Carthage is. I am unconvinced which one is worse. Probably, Greek Bronze is worse and Carth Iron is worse in def RM.. but both civs are clearly the worst in the game.

These suggested changes would, IMO, bring Greece/Carth to the middle group of civs (ie balance them)

Greece

1) A slinger bonus of 1AP and 1 range would give them added defences vs their worst enemy in bronze, CA's. This would also given them lively slinger rush capabilities.

2) Their warships move at 2.05 speed vs 1.75 for other civs.. only in ES math is this 30% faster LOL Anyhow, all their ships including fishing and trading should be 30% faster. This will enable faster fishing in bronze when the close fish are gone and enable trade boats to function more effectively. If a full 30% is too fast( It may be) the number can just be the 0.3 speed increase now.

Now you have a balanced Greece as you have a civ with a slight econ bonus which is now better and dangerous in the tool age and better defensively, although still not great, in bronze. These new bonuses dwindle in iron as the slingers die in hordes to anything strong and most fish are gone. (The trade speed will help a bit sometimes)

Carthage

1) Give them full priests so that they can better retain their slow armies of phants/phalanx etc. This makes their iron more effective. In RM I have Carth get trashed by good priest civs in iron.

2) As Carth bronze still stinks, give them a 25% ocean fishing rate bonus. This will make them faster and certainly more interesting to play as fish are now gathered at .50 vs .40 for others.

Now Carth can advance faster and better use its HP advantages for academy/eles.

Credit must be given to Methos who wrote at great civ balancing article at gamersx.com as some of his sugestions are almost the same as mine.

As it is.. Greek academy in bronze can do a reasonable job of saving vils from cav/mels/chars but CA can make them into pin cushions and can still do great damage to vils. Greece needs to wall in woodies away from CA's. An army of hoppers/ST can take CA's on but a smart enemy has more than just CA's on you and you must guard those ST's with your hops to keep enemy charge units off them. I have seen Greece hops/bowmen used but that takes tons of food and dies horribly to comps/ST in late bronze.

I am thankful that ES is making a great effort in AOK to have more and varied civ bonuses. This makes balancing evenmore difficult but will yield a very interesting game if done properly...neilkaz...

KingAshur
Inactive
posted 08-18-99 01:27 PM ET (US)     6 / 42       
All these ideas are so true but one major problem is left out, lach of archers. The Greeks do not get any archers, except the primitive Bowmen, without achers a Greek military is powerless. Any great army in the game(and real ancient armies too)are supported by atleast one kind of archer, therefore a lach of them makes the player have to go hand-to-hand. The only possible way for a Greek player to kill is to rush to Iron with alot of Hoplites, upgrade to Phalanxe, and attack fast. If the defender builds up an archer army, the attack is useless. In short terms Greek is a terrible offensive civ!!!

------------------
King Ashur

joecho
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 01:27 PM ET (US)     7 / 42       
I don't think speed is Greek's weakness. They have the wheel and all the woodchopping upgrades. As you've noted, they are as fast as Hitt, Egy, etc. But these other guys have the bz military, whereas as noted, Greece does not.

Roman and Greek bz do not compare. Rome gets chariots, which will graduate into scythes. Imps and cheap towers, too. Rome is also a semi-fast civ.

Protecting STs w/ hoppers doesn't work against good priest civs either. The prob is, as noted, Greece gets no real counter priest units in bz. One converted hopper, and you have a big mess. Greece has to wait until iron age cats w/ ballistics to fight priests. Until then, you have to rely on cavs. But the thing is, cavs are faster than the rest of your bz troops, so they will often be separated from the rest of the group, and well, die. Even w/ iron age cats, martyrdom can put a big dent in your siege army.

The prob is, ES made Greece a bit too historically accurate. Greece really did employ primarily heavy infantry and siege, along w/ fast warships. No archers.

I would rather have Greece than Carth or Persia, though. I can't hunt for my life.


-joecho

[This message has been edited by joecho (edited 08-18-99).]

EPS_Coleader
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 01:33 PM ET (US)     8 / 42       
I play greek almost every time because thier acad units with aristocracy are just a little bit slower than cavs.
EPS_Coleader
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 01:33 PM ET (US)     9 / 42       
I play greek almost every time because thier acad units with aristocracy are just a little bit slower than cavs.
Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 03:51 PM ET (US)     10 / 42       
I experienced death by those fast Greek academy units in a random game.

I got greek and so did the enemy! The enemy knew exactly what to do to me with greek. He sent some calvery first and then the hoplites started attacking.

They were like bugs, running hops everywhere! killing things! so now I will remember...Greek gets fast cheap guys with sticks! frightful

Wicked_Spirit
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 04:28 PM ET (US)     11 / 42       
OK, now I know that a lot of people play water maps. Neil, I believe you said "My villies were not born to farm" after seeing hill country in a game recently. But how do you give a bonus to Greece or Carth so that it applies on all maps? Sometimes it is nice to play a land map and get rid of the massive booming that takes place on medit or conti or narrows or coastal. The bonuses that have been offered will do nothing on land maps(except the slinger one, which is an excellent idea).

Just curious if anyone has any ideas.

[This message has been edited by Wicked_Spirit (edited 08-18-99).]

Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 08-18-99 10:16 PM ET (US)     12 / 42       
Concerning an improvment for Greece I have a wicked idea for them... What about giving em balists in bronze age! After all Greece invented Balists if am not wrong no?
Greece is so weak but Balists in bronze would perhaps bring em near the top (in bronze at least).
Player's wouldn't laugh at Greece anymore and would go on a hunt to rush em to assure that they wouldn't build up a nice Balists + ST army!
Mark_Aurel
Clubman
posted 08-18-99 10:51 PM ET (US)     13 / 42       
The ideal of ES when they designed the game was, of course, to create a playable, yet somewhat historically accurate game.

Basically, my idea for balancing greeks might be something along the lines of Neil's, except for the fact that I would generally give Hoppers a +1 Piercing Armour (they do have shields, after all - even without any Shield techs). Combined with the Bronze Shield, this would make Greek Hoppers stand up better to archers. A problem will, of course, arise with Mace (+4 piercing armour in Bronze?!) --- generally, Archers would still be the bane of Academy units, they just wouldn't own them quite as much.

Another alternative idea for a kind of economic bonus for the Greeks would be to give them cheaper techs - say 25% or 30% off for all techs. This would be in line with the 'Greeks invented everything' sentiment some people have about the world of antiquity.

Yet another option might be to give Greeks both Fire Galleys and Cat Triremes in Iron, or change the Cat Triremes for Fire Galleys. Of course, this would accomplish nothing but making Greeks stronger/different in Iron ... and having all three ship types would probably be overpowering but still ... 30% faster Fire Galleys would be fun. Generally, I still find naval warfare to be about the most boring kind there is. If there was a wider selection of warships earlier, it might have been fun. But as it is, it is kind of dull.

As for Carth, I'd rather give them some kind of trading bonus ala Palmy than a fishing ship bonus --- it would be better suited to their history. As an option for the fishing ship bonus, I might suggest something along the lines of Farmers that gather food faster, say at .45 or .50 --- I know some people's Villagers aren't born to farm, but some of mine are. This would also be a very good bonus on Hill Country, I believe, whereas the trading bonus would not.

Another thing might be to make both Greeks and Carthaginians eligible for full Priests.

All the ideas I've tossed around above are at based at least somewhat on history, more than game balance, even though that's what the intention is.

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 08-19-99 06:47 AM ET (US)     14 / 42       
Hey am I the only one old enough to remember the last "Greek are not quite so bad after all" discussion. Greek are the worst bronze age civ, unquestionably, and unfortunately this is not compensated by them being the best iron age civ. Hittite / Sumerian / Roman all win hands down against Greek iron.
Mark, I forgive you, cos you are new, but check out the dock menu, it is impossible to accomodate both fire galleys and cat triremes, thats the real reason ES never gave any civ both. If fire galleys had been in AOE I am sure Greek would prob have got both.

I have to hand it to Sebsoft, imagine ballistas in bronze! It would revolutionise the game.

Mark_Aurel
Clubman
posted 08-19-99 08:40 AM ET (US)     15 / 42       
Ummm ... I'm not so new that I do not remember the last "Greeks are not so bad" discussion myself. Concerning the Fire Galley/Cat Trireme idea, I was merely tossing some ideas around --- I know they occupy the same slot on the Dock menu, and I've heard that complaint before; however, I don't think it would be a great matter to change the menu so that it would be similar to the Villager build menu (two pages).

I also kind of like the idea of Ballistae in Bronze - but then every civ that has them would have to get them in Bronze. If this would be the case, there would have to be an initial Ballista tech --- an expensive one.

APC_Doink
Inactive
posted 08-19-99 11:47 AM ET (US)     16 / 42       
Give them compies! Or at least impies. Or camels. Then they could fight.

As they are, I think a combined Minoan Compy/Greece Hoplite army would be kind of scary. The compies protect the hoplite from other archers and the hoppies take out buildings, infantry, and cavalry.

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 08-19-99 12:09 PM ET (US)     17 / 42       
Some strange decisions were made when ROR was formulated, ES clearly regarded the redesign of the dock menu as too much trouble even though they made the temple menu bigger.
Then they tamed assy and yammy and made Shang relatively more powerful. Then at the other end of the scale they did nothing to help Greece and indeed by adding camels and weakening ballistics actually handicapped them. But they did add Carth as another lame civ to keep them company on the bottom tier. But we are talking ancient history here. I don't cry when I get them in random civs, at least not until I have seen the other team's civs.

Can you tell I am slightly disillusioned with ES since the beta fiasco and the repeated AOK shipping delays?

Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 08-19-99 01:26 PM ET (US)     18 / 42       
You should be disillusioned Bolshi_Basci and I got another argument to add in your reasons: the fact that they don't even patch the damm game. 1 patch in what 3 years? Laughable.

To Mark I would only give balists in bronze to Greece to give them an advantage over the other civs. Giving balists to every civs in bronze would be pointless and would undoubtly totally crash the game balance (I think it would be a real bad idea). Since Greece invented balists one could justify that they could be granted to have that tech earlier so in the bronze age. With the adition of camels Greece was really raped giving em no chance to survive bronze... Except when you totally outplay someone of course! I suggest to go hoplite and ST but this outrageously costly .

A tought on Carth these are not that bad and should never be mentionned with Greece in my opinion. They got Camels in bronze which means they can ride the stable path till iron something that Greece cannot do. They do get impies too btw.

I think that alot of people are always begging for compies like they cannot perform if they don't got compies or CA in their tech! You know you can build other combinaison then compies/st? Sure compies/st is nice but it's late bronze and trying a flood with cavs and camels can do surprising results. Plus when it's been a while you can start to make ST to take care of ST+compies... I am actually not a big fan of compies coz it takes so long to devlop and that they are just so slow to move around the field.

mulan98
Clubman
posted 08-19-99 09:29 PM ET (US)     19 / 42       
I guess it's all in the mind. If you think you can make it, you can. I once played a random game with a guys. It's a 1v1 huge conti. I got Greek and he got Shang. When the game start, I was like, I AM SO DEAD! In the end, I won the game. It was not bad at all. I guess that Shang guy was not as good at Shang as he is suppose to. I played defensive. I towered my TC like mad. Every 5 tiles, there's a tower. Then I got to IRON and he's dead meat. He did try to bronze me but My towers got his CAs. To my surprise, he did not use any STs. Which was a huge mistake for him. My eco was not bad at all, in fact it was pretty good., I had like 5000 wood, 2000 gold and like 1900 food or so. I swarmed his TC with tons of Academy units and Cats. It was a very intense game. Long but fun.

From that day onwards, my perception on Greek changed. I beat a Shang with Greek, though the Shang was a intermidiate Shang.

Well, guys...all I can say is, if you want to win, you can win with any civ. Even with Greek. It's all in the mind!

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 08-20-99 11:07 AM ET (US)     20 / 42       
Er yeh, Mulan a good player beats a bad player every time. That's no way to compare civs though. Ask yourself which civ you would expect to lose to your own Greek with in bronze. I don't have a problem with the word "Greek" I don't have a prob with their economy. The problem is they have no answer to the sort of archer / st / camel / priest combo that every other civ can manage in bronze. No other civ has such a gaping ugly hole in their bronze age armoury.

Odyssey2
Clubman
posted 08-20-99 11:28 AM ET (US)     21 / 42       
Bolshi_Basic, Greece can survive that if they play their cards right. To counteer the archer/priest/camel/st combo, they can send upgraded cavalries, then a slinger/hopper combo, with sts backing it up. Granted it ont be very efficient, but as Greek your main objective is to get to Iron. A good idea is to go definsively crazy. Tower every couple of tiles near your base. make cavs to get rid or archers and sts. of course there will be camels, so make st of your own. Make Hoppers and slingers, because they both move at the same speed they wont get seperated. Make priests to convert the camels. Or just wall in a large area early, boom, and wait for iron.

------------------
Zone Name: APC_Odyssey

armagedn
Clubman
posted 08-20-99 11:55 AM ET (US)     22 / 42       
No economic bonus. No archers after TOOL. Most useless military "bonus" in the game (boat speed). No camels. Mediocre priests. Best unit (hopper) is easily converted. Gold dependency. Not a viable civ until Iron, which (against equal or better players), they will rarely see. Even in Iron, only a better-than-average civ.

Now, once again, what is it you don't understand?

Odyssey2
Clubman
posted 08-20-99 12:07 PM ET (US)     23 / 42       
I dont think I said anywhere that Greece is a great civ, or even a mediocre civ, and if I did Im willing to retract it. All I said this time was that they could get to Iron. I would much rather have egy than greek, but who wouldnt? Greece can survive and win, but it will be a very hard battle, and once the gold runs out, they're gone. And that should be very long considering how much gold they use!
Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 08-20-99 12:30 PM ET (US)     24 / 42       
Armagedn while it is true that Greece is without a doubt the worst civ in RM I think you are a bit off target when you say that fast boat is the most useless bonus. Here is the worst bonus:
1) Fast trainy (carth)
2) 2xgold traiding boats (palmy)

Do you think that Palmy faster camels are good? I personnaly do their speed can really help. It's just the same for Greece boats. First of all against Hitite they are more efficient then Assy's boat for instance coz they can get in range faster. Secondly once outnumbered you can actually flee from enemy and regroup at your docks. So you can sometime do flee and repair tactics with those. Noone can flee on you with either their fish boats or their galleys you are faster. You can explore the sea faster. You can send in boats faster to attack. Faster is better. It's not an amazing bonus but I think that this bonus can/could decide a winner in some matchs so this is why I say that it's not useless.

EPS_Coleader
Clubman
posted 08-20-99 05:43 PM ET (US)     25 / 42       
GRRRRRRRRRRRRR I AM SICK OF PEOPLE SAYING THAT GREECE STINKS! THE SHIP BONUS ALLOWS THE BOATS TO ATTACK FIRE GALLEYS BETTER, AND WILL ALLOW THEM TO DESTROY CAT. TRIREMES AND JUGGS EASIER. THIER TECH TREE IS THE LARGEST IN THE GAME. THE HOPPERS WITH ARISTOCRACY ARE ALMOST AS FAST AS CAVALRY. THEY HAVE ALL SIEGE ENGINES IN THE GAME. IF ANY CIV. WAS THE "WORST", THE CIV WOULD BE BABYLON UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING WONDER GAME, WHICH DOESNT HAPPEN VERY OFTEN. SO LAY OFF GREECE
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