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Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Iron Age Management Help Wanted
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Topic Subject:Iron Age Management Help Wanted
UConnBBall
Clubman
posted 12-02-98 02:22 PM ET (US)         
Well I wanted to start this new thread to find out how many players out there have done this mistake. I was in a 2v2v2 default resource, coastal, population 75 game. My personal favorite. I love lower population games, due to the fact of more management requirements. Well me and my partner Stooge Nuef were in a Iron Age war against 4 other Stooges, by the way how many stooges are there? I was Phoenician and he was Hittite, and my plan was to got o Iron and build a mainly Scythe Chariot army, and tribute my gold for his HCATS. Well everything was working to plan. Had great gold mining pits in my base, and we teamed up against 2 players and beat them and then came against 2 other players and was having a great battle against them. In those battles I made between 20 to 30 SCs and went in for battle trading my wood for his gold. I just couldn't just over welm their army. I kept reaching my population limit so when a SC went down another one would be produced so I could basically keep sending in my SCs but not enough to win. I was then into the game 2 1/2 hours and finally started to run out of supplies, and it was late. East Coast here! Today I was going over the game with 20/20 hindsight, and remembered my mistakes. I could have not fought through such a NARROW PASS!!!!!!!!!!! Or I could have done other things and used my transports, or more boats, or this or that. Then it came to me I was always just 3 or 5 SCs away from over taking them. My FISHING BOATS!! I never got rid of the, even though it was so later into the game and had fished out the closed in sea that they were into. After the game they were just sitting there taking up population space. So this long explanation for this question is this. How many of you just leave your unused fishing boats just sitting there while they take up your population space? I had about 20 and I don't think that you need that many in mid to late Iron Age. What are some of the real experts, since I'm a late comer less than two months playing, opinions on use of fishing boats in Iron Age when you have plenty of supplies, and are in battle and keep hitting your population limit? What should you do to lessen your pop? Get rid of fishing boats? Or some Vills? Or use your vills to build farms instead? Which would use up limited wood supplies. Or do you get rid of your boats for a while and then rebuild them in another sea later when you are not in battle? Any opinions or comments would be appreciated. Just none of the Scythe Chariots suck or I hate them, because I hate them to when they came after me in large numbers. Thanks!!! Go Connecticut Number One in Men's and Women's Polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

UConnBBall


AuthorReplies:
dshea
Inactive
posted 12-02-98 02:41 PM ET (US)     1 / 11       
Couple of short points:
1) If your boats aren't fishing anymore, they are the first to go.
2) Always delete your fishing boats before deleting your vills. Vills can always be Jihaded.
3) I would not dock small inland lakes. If I can't move my already built fishing boats to the water, the investment is too high. Take domestication and then build farms.


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 12-02-98 03:20 PM ET (US)     2 / 11       
Some ideas, based in practice.

1. The usefulness of boat fishing.

Boat fishing (especially in mediterranean and Coastal) has allowed me to go Iron a number of times.
To me, that's exactly when its use expires. Even with tons of unexplored fish patches in the seas, the demands for food are simply too great in Iron.
Elephants, Horse archers, upgrades and more upgrades... It's food by the hundreds and only farms can do.
Besides, when the initial fishing spots are finished, we are normally in battle operations and it simply takes too much time to find new spots, and to gather the food.
So, as soon as food intake starts to be short, or your Iron starts lagging for food, or upgrades are not taken or units are not trained... you KNOW boat fishing (or part of it) has lived up to its term.

Make more Villagers to replace the boats - I would say 1 Vill per each 2 boats...

2. The hidden cost of fishing: Protection.

You should always measure just how much wood are you willing to sacrifice to protect the fishing operations.

The cost in wood of a dozen warships can be devastating!...

I use this rule of thumb:

Islands, Narrows and Inland, where my *un-mined* Gold is in the shores: Build warships and protect.

Continental where my town or resources are too close to water: Protect, even if not that much fish.

Mediterranean or Continental with Town / resources recessed enough to be safe from warships: Protect ONLY and only if the fishing operations are huge - for us or for the foes. Otherwise, abandon them, go farming and outproduce him (better pop limit ratio, because villagers do better at resources than boats...).

In any case, ALL fishing boats that exceeded their useful life (= can't find fish patches for them) are mercilessly deleted.


3. Scythe Chariots.

What a waste. You could use that wood / food to raise farms to pay for Elephants - a lot more punch and great Cat protectors (and killers of other's Cats). All you need is a few Priests handy at all times for re-conversion.

Scythe Chariots are WEAK, require lots of free space to manoeuvre and are really difficult to micromanage - they thend to do a lot of superfluous turns, jockeying around for position.

I would reccommend you only use them massed AFTER the gold is gone.

The best use for them is to kill villagers: 1 or 2 SC will instantly kill a woodcutting or mining party in a fell swoop!... What an exhilarating experience! What a payback!...

Phoenician is strong at cheapo Elephants and good Priests - that's what I would have used...Armoured Elephants not difficult to get with so much wood for farms...

Another good unit from Phoenicia is the Phalanx / Centurion, as well as the Legion.

So many options...

I still fail to see the use of SC, except for killing peons - and for that just a few are enough.


4. Of massing weak units vs. smuggling strong units

Yes, what is more efficient:

Mass a bunch of SC and lose them all trying to force your way, or trannying 10 elephants (or armored ones...or Phalanx...) into his back door and destroying everything?...

Sometimes, it is better to sneak in a small but powerfull force than trying to force the front door with a weak battering ram.


My 2 cents...


UConnBBall
Clubman
posted 12-03-98 02:21 PM ET (US)     3 / 11       
Hey thanks for the advise. I keep trying new things out. Maybe Just Maybe someday I'll have a good Idea in what I am doing well Thanks again.


Ender
Guest
posted 12-04-98 07:00 AM ET (US)     4 / 11       
Pretty funny someone talking about how much scythe chariots suck and then saying go with elephants. Elephants are pretty bad units as well, especially an all elephant army.


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 12-04-98 07:12 AM ET (US)     5 / 11       
Hehe, Ender, your statement that Elephants suck is valid only in context...

If opponent not handy (or not using) Priests and if he is not using an helepolis-based army, then Elephants rule.

I find that massed HHA with LOTS od room to manoeuvre (or behind obstacles) can be effective against a few "non-Persian" War Elephants or EA.

Still, War Elephants can demolish towns and that is a bonus - as well as invalidate a Cat army...

Again, in context, BOTH our statements are right....


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 12-04-98 08:38 AM ET (US)     6 / 11       
1st off delete the fishing boats.

2nd The most abundant resource you will have in iron is typically food. If you have a 50-70 villy economy in iron you will have food and wood in surplus. This is what is so nice about the SC. I agree with the previous statement that SC's are a bit overrated, difficult to manuever etc. BUT if I am in iron and can pump out SC's and am playing a gold civ as long as I kill units the game should be over. Of course this will take some time and I prefer to win my games a bit more elegantly but this is the big benefit of SC's.

3rd I can't emphasize this enough because I see it all the time, if something isn't working, either you have a bad unit matchup or a bad position, change location or change tactics. Doing the same thing that didn't work before will usually not work in the future. If your getting chewed up at a certain choke point, avoid it, like you said.


Stooge_Farsan
Inactive
posted 12-04-98 09:25 AM ET (US)     7 / 11       
Hi NoSoup4U,

Nice name - it seems to me that you in fact serve quite a lot of soup for all of us here in forum (j/k)

I wonder how to win a game "more elegantly" or what is a less elegant way to win ? I guess use mass axerman and bowmen in late iron age vs cats is certainly not a beautiful scene - but SC seems to be very elegant units - to me anyways.

By the way, are you a member in TGO clan or something ? I think sometime ago I played a half game wtih TGO_NoSoup4U - could be a nice game - forgot who droped so the game cancelled. Anyway, nice to meet you.

As to the fishing ship/Boats, I found sometimes it really take sometime to delete them specially with the lag - in this case, I use to send them to enemy or put them on the shallow - so my enemy could have some pleasure to kill something, and I do not have to explain to my people why I kill my own just becasue they are not usefull anymore

It is difficult to manage iron war in gig map - and I often could not find the direction. Med map is much easier though.

And there are about 25 stooges active in zone.

No Saturday again and I am looking forward to having some nice game again in forum party. Hope to meet you all there


Stooge_Farsan

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 12-04-98 10:33 AM ET (US)     8 / 11       
Farsan,

Yes I am a newly minted member of the TGO clan although I have been around a long time, back when 20 minute bronze times were cool and I could play Choson 30% of the time and NEVER lose. Funny how everyone plays shang again. Anyway since I only have about 5 TGO games under my belt I should remember the game but we will get one again sometime.

By elegance, I meant I would rather win because of tactical or economic superiority than wearing someone down in a three hour game and they run out of gold thats all. But hey, winning is winning!

As for serving up soup on the forum, I never visited this site until about a month ago and now I'm addicted to posting. There are a lot of good people posting and you can learn a bit out here (of course you gotta filter a little garbage too!)

I usually play weekdays between noon and 4 PM EST so hope to see ya around.


[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 12-04-98).]

Ender
Guest
posted 12-04-98 11:32 AM ET (US)     9 / 11       
hey NoSoup4U, not sure if you know but I'm a member of TGO clan as well. I don't play much with my TGO name but every once in a while I play a game with the Germans... TGO_Paladin and TGO_Chief.


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 12-04-98 12:47 PM ET (US)     10 / 11       
Ender,

I was aware that you were a member, we will have to get a game. I enjoy playing with chief and paladin, they both can play and are fun.


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 12-04-98 07:55 PM ET (US)     11 / 11       
As far as Scythes sucking..they don't..but you have to uses their stengths..hell in low lag gameS(i try to only play green games ) i can kill 20 heles with 16 'Phracts. How? Micromangement...in iron Farms are a MUST!..they keep your vills more effiecient and ya don't have to keep finding 20 vills foraging for food to find another spot. research all farm upgrades if you can..but only in Late bronze and then into iron. Cause 26 farms with Irrigation can pump out some food..i played many games and in matters of minutes i upgrade to yam HHA and Yam 'Phract(why 'Phract? it just was a moral thing..Hah 10 minutes in bronz eand i have 20 HHAs and 20 ' Phracts! hahahhaha who da man?) Second sythes arn't mass units..against a investure of 10 Phalanx and 2 priests they suck..even in large groups...Simply not enough Meleepower to mash on any unit but Archers...However as vill killers they are the best...2 Scythes will take out about 10 vills in 5 secs...faster than 16 HHA's...well maybe not faster but defentely cheaper... not to mention they can't be converted easily and they will cause at least a minor amount of damage to enemy units.. Micromange as many units as possible...20 heles are worse than 2 heles if they're fire is all directed at one enemy unit... Thats why i use "phracts to take'em down...16 'phracts is cheaper than 16 heles... and phracts have much better uses as well... Just my 2 yen...oh i hate shang


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