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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Wow Neil, that whole "three Shang villies on berries" kicks!
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Topic Subject:Wow Neil, that whole "three Shang villies on berries" kicks!
apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 07-27-99 07:49 AM ET (US)         
I recently tried that on good berries, and the extra villie helped SOOOOO much!! Great idea! I love it.
AuthorReplies:
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 07-27-99 12:17 PM ET (US)     1 / 10       
hmm i never use shang.... but how can 3 vills provide enough food for u to keep pumping out vills without delay, when a vill costs 35 not 30 .... could u pls explain?

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 07-27-99).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 07-27-99 01:09 PM ET (US)     2 / 10       
OK here's the basic idea with a couple of facts.

1) 3 Shang foragers gather 27 food every 20 sec

2) 4 Shang foragers gather 36 food every 20 sec

3) It costs 35 food every 20 sec to keep producing Shang vils

4) If you are running low on food and have to HC each new vil at the last second or after the preceeding one was born you usually lose a couple of seconds in lagging zone games.

5) Shang normally has enough food in Q for a couple of extra vils once you start foraging

6) An extra wood chopper early on means that you can pit and then dock faster and those earlier FB will start gathering food to help you tool

I posted about all of this when I discussed my Shang Super Boom a few months ago. What all this means is that assuming you find berries quickly as Shang you use only 3 foragers while you surplus food depletes at a rate of 8 food every 20 sec as you produce new vils. When it looks like you are going to be running low on food (typically vil 10-12) you send the necessary 4th forager to the berries. This mean that you pit faster and can easily function to create a forest wood pit and your houses with only 2 strags. Even with mediocre strags I can build that pit typically when vil 10 is born. If I am short wood I can wait to build the house at the last minute with 2 vils after #11 is born. I have found that this is the best way to crank up a boom with Shang and when well done with good fishing you can simply boat boom while pumping vils all the way until you click the tool button between 8 and 9 minutes with 27-30 real vils and many FB from 3 or 4 docks. Your only land based food gatherers are the 4 foragers. Arriving at a 10-11 minute tool with the food to bronze jump and the wood gathering capability for a navy soon and wood/gold gathering upgrades usually results in more than any other civs can deal with. With this boom, Shang also has the option to use all that food to launch a very strong tool attack.

My typical Shang start would go like this...

1) HC(CC)
2) Grab 2 vils BE quickly
3) Waypoint the 3rd vil quickly
4) Waypoint a builder quickly
5) House done waypoint him
6) HCC(C) and grab vil 4 as he pops out
7) AHA found berries and 2 vils are near them while the other two see some forest.
8) My two vils near the forest build the granary while the other two return to chop the strag(s) closest to them/TC
9) Vil 5 is born and joins the other 2 as foragers. No need to waste wood chopping time running that third vil past the TC before #5 is born.

Etc) New vils all go on wood until I need a 4th on berries and then a newborn becomes my 4th and final forager.
...once my pit is up I try to time it so 2 vils(builders) arrive at the coast to dock at the moment I have my 100 extra wood... while pumping FB, making the necessary houses and 3 or 4 docks all newborns go on wood. I may add a second wood pit later. I may send my 2 builders to the enemy to make trouble and they will likely be my house builders too, perhaps with some radar housing effect. I pump vils until I can tool and if I feel late I can stop vils or put a couple more on the berries since my berries last a long time with only 3 then 4 foragers.

Shang absolutely, kicks butt when this start is executed well and you can in general jam the granary right next to any berry patch and have 3 and likely 4 foragers working w/no walking which means that the other bushes are closer to the granary once the first ones are finished. Honestly, I won 29 3v3's in a row as Shang using this start and my first loss came in the AOEH tourney vs aloha when 1) I had poor fishing and thus was slower and had poor food intake once bronzed 2) They defended superbly vs my CA's w/their bowmen/slingers combo. 3) Are DaRq team communication was VERY poor and we gradually weakened and lost even though our Phoe did a decent job of holding off the enemy Shang early. I have lost a couple 3v3's since w/Shang but in general this start is really strong...neilkaz...

PS the key point with Shang is to lose NO time making vils.. Shang's only asset is a HUGE horde of cheap workers quickly produced, IMO.

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 07-27-99 06:02 PM ET (US)     3 / 10       
actually, he doesn't use ONLY 3 villies, he uses 4, but he puts off his 4th one until the very end. you start with 200 food and 3 villies. 2 villies start the foraging the 3rd on wood. why? because you have enough vils to keep you through vil 9. lets say you get your granary up by vil 5. 3/4 have gone on wood, or 4 on food if you found your berries early. thus, you now have vils 6, 7, and 8 in que with 25 food left. as 6/7/8 pop out, you'll have gotten enough food for vil 9 and 10 maybe, with just 3 on berries. for every vil that pops out tho, you "lose" 10 food from your food bank. thus, when 10 pop out, maybe 11, you'll be down to 0 food in bank, 0 EXTRA vils (i.e. you're still creating one, just don't have another in que). now your 3 berry pickers can't keep up with your production rate, and you need a 4th on berries to keep it up.

consider it this way. rather than putting your first 4 on food and having a load of extra food, and putting 5-18 on wood or something, u have vil 4 (really, vil 3 to save walking time as neil indicated) trade jobs with vil 11. thus, you don't have the extra food. instead, you trade that food for wood, thus getting a faster pit time and a faster dock time. heck, if u want, you can try going with putting everyone on wood for a round or two, then finding those berries and putting 4 on them. it might work even faster, although i've never tried it . same principle. put those vils to work earlier on something that you need. finding good wood is more essential to shang than good berries.

rw

Potejon
Clubman
posted 07-27-99 07:22 PM ET (US)     4 / 10       
I tires it neil and it was almost like it though when i ahd 500 food I stopped making vills a min or so ago, but practice right?
Of course I lost the game but I did have my largest ca's armies ever, but no st's and 2 assy ca armies + st's was a bit to hard to fight back long. But it was a great game.

Got any tips, apart from what I saw you do that time? I relocated woodies a bit since rushing was impending and even one assy ca can do some damage, not to mention more.

------------------
Pote
In Ferro Veritas (Latin), "In the Sword is Truth"

Wuzat
Clubman
posted 07-27-99 10:28 PM ET (US)     5 / 10       
hehe, you are doing awesome if you get shang in random civs in a 1v1, vs a greek, with a 5 sf start! hehe. how many shang vills do you need on sf tho?
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 07-27-99 11:39 PM ET (US)     6 / 10       
OK Wuzat.. w/ZERO walking 3 Shangers collect 36 food from SF every 20 sec.

Pote keep practicing to be able to quickly assign newly created FB to the fish and also to be very effective you need to find berries relatively quickly and to have good ocean fishing. Don't fret if it looks like your short on food to tool add a couple more guys to the berries, at the expence of a couple of FB's...neilkaz...

Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 07-28-99 00:46 AM ET (US)     7 / 10       
I do not know if am the only one who feels like this but I really don't think that having 4 on berries instead of 3 until 10th villy will make you win the game! Maybe it's coz am lazy tho! I would prefer to put 4 on berries and maybe have my 4th gatherer build houses in spare time for example or not even botter at all! I honestly do not believe that having used that strategy will make you either win or loose the game. Plus it sounds like you could actually run into problem and cause some villager lagg anyway coz you're a bit playing with fire... + anyway I think that what determine the winner of the game is how you react to a non-perfect map. Those nefty trick are cool but not mind-blowing in my opinion. Exploration, great placement of wood pit, using the right strategy according to the map, good placement of docks, villager boning: how you react to enemy foward builder and how you manage your own foward b in opponent fields are quite more important in my opinion. Also not running into houses shortage (damm this happeneds to me alot ).

That trick sounds a bit like the 1st house build up discusion. You know do u build your first house via 2 peons or build a house right away with only 1 peon and have an extra explorer... These won't make you win a game I can bet you that.

Anyway shang should be banned in my opinion. Sometime a bad map with any other civ is a good map for shang coz of the damm cheapnest of the peons. Shang basicly stinks. I get so ****** when some1 takes em in my 1 on 1. Like today I pick rome I click in opponent picks after a long tought shang. Damm lamer if you ask me. Anyway games starts bad spot loose a villager. The count is 12-17 in peons before I simply type: "that won't cut in a roman vs shang match gg" and I just quit the game. Picking shang is basicly saying "if you beat me I really suck and if I win it prooves simply nothing".

Perhaps am babling as usuall... got my ass tower rushed against roman on that damm large conti map (damm tiny map) and ran into shortage of gold (damm yammy) so I'm a bit grumpy tonight...

Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 07-28-99 07:48 AM ET (US)     8 / 10       

Hi all yes those ol' shang are the most powerfull civ in RoR. (someone should balance them, es ) If the game is not 'no shang' I will use them
I wish i was faster so Shangs full benefits would come into play.

I agree with Sebsoft (and i'm very lazy) the extra villager on berries builds houses. I am 'housed' to much!

Pokeboy151
Inactive
posted 07-28-99 09:14 AM ET (US)     9 / 10       
You should be able to have "slums" wich house more people. or even homeless people. and it would rock if a civ. got a "villagers count as 1/2 towards population" they would be UNSTOPABLE, except if Shang was on a GREAT spot, and the new civ got a really sucky start or if it was me and maimin_matty, :-)

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sarmis_poke!!


WarLust
Inactive
posted 07-28-99 12:27 PM ET (US)     10 / 10       
Too bad you don't get to use that too often, unless you host your own games Shang are outlawed in 99% of all games, and this strategy just adds to their versatility. A lot of people already know how to do this. No fun.

-WarLust

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