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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Infantry: Who uses them
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Topic Subject:Infantry: Who uses them
Emperor Ryan
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 01:16 PM ET (US)         
I've been playing on the Zone for a couple weeks now and never saw swordsmen be used in an attack. Swordsmen are pretty weak and I do not recomend them (except Roman) for fighting other units. They're slow, not alot of HP, and bad armor. I think that infantry units should have an advantage over calvary because of their stealthness and height, therefore calvary should have an advantage over Acedemy Units because of the Calvary's way 9f out flanking the less menueverable Acedemy units.

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Emperor Ryan

AuthorReplies:
Stooge_aholic
Clubman
posted 07-20-99 01:36 PM ET (US)     1 / 25       
I see you have not been on the end of a Choson or Roman Legion invasion, I have been on the receiving end and have been the one to give another the pleasure of one of these, imagine seeing about 30 Legions entering your Town, and about 4 minutes later NOTHING is left. These little Terrors are cheap and very effective in large numbers, not much will stand up against a horde of them, with all the upgrades they have Excellent armor. And it seems the more you kill them more show up...I know of a few people that love these Demons and if you want to feel what its like let me know and I will set up a game...would love to see the horror on your face when you realize you can't stop them and they keep marching and marching on you!
Don't get me wrong there are ways of stopping this but it takes alot of skill and management and knowing your civ and how to counter!

[This message has been edited by Stooge_aholic (edited 07-20-99).]

RajunCajunBoy
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 01:57 PM ET (US)     2 / 25       
Stooge is right. I have also been on the receiving end of a few choson and roman legion attacks. I especially remember a 3v3 where my Roman opponent took early control of the narrows with cheap towers, and just kept pumping out first swordsmen, then legions. They didn't overrun me but kept me occupied so much that other enemy trannyed over and paid me an unpleasant visit.

The players that use the swordsmen(legion) attack do not ever attack with 4 or 5 of them. When they come at you, it is a hoard of them. Just to keep them in check you are forced to be able to mulitask very well. Usually you end up slacking off on your economy when fighting a swordsmen attack, and this really hurts you later.

The player that picks choson or roman either has no clue how to play them, or they are very proficient. I have been one of the ones where I drew roman in random civ and had no clue So don't underestimate the usefullness of even the humble swordsman in a sound strategy.

eug1
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 02:05 PM ET (US)     3 / 25       
I used to feel the way you do Ryan....Then one day I drew Choson in a random civ game and KILLED with infantry! They are extremely cheap when compared to other units and actually are pretty strong. I now usually play Rome when it is not random civs and I must say that my record is becoming higher on the win side...

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You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.
Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)
APC_eug1 and I am

Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 02:22 PM ET (US)     4 / 25       
Indeed infantry is a bad choice in bronze ryan. Even with Rome it's pretty bad. They are just too slow and die to archers. I usually go charriots with roman in bronze and in iron I just go scythes or/and siege. Choson on the other hand can become really nasty once they got 160hp long swoard. Problem for choson is to get to iron of course!

Sometime when I have tool rushed heavy and basicly cleanly won the tool war and i go bronze I will actually use short swoards (with yams last time)! I got lotsa barracks laying everywhere and I know I got better economy then enemy and sometime my wood is low so why not just use those stupid units! They pop out fast and you can easilly use em to just control spots of the map and flooding can actually work. So to finish off a enemy you tool rushed these are pretty good.

About greece the other day I was playing against a pretty bad opponent and went straight to iron got the 3 shields upgrades and aristocraty. Ouch! My hoppers/phalanx really looked like world war II King Tigers! Unstoppable and pretty darn fast! I think it's a pretty good idea to use that strat with Greece instead of going full siege coz its so slow to build up it's a slow moving army and often I just don't got the wood to do it anyway.

Mark_Aurel
Clubman
posted 07-20-99 02:32 PM ET (US)     5 / 25       
The reason that infantry is underused in AoE is due to the numerous weaknesses of infantry compared to other units:

1) They're relatively slow, making them fall prey to Siege quite easily.

2) They are extremely vulnerable to massed Archers.

3) They are vulnerable to Priests (except for really large hordes of 'em).

Basically, there are three lines of Infantry in the game: Clubman/Axeman, Swordsmen/Legions, and Academy.

Clubmen and Axemen are primarily used for Tool Rushing, and it is relatively common to see Axeman rushes be quite successful.

Swordsmen and Legions: This line is comparatively useless in Bronze, due to the fact that they do not have sufficient protection against missiles and Cavalry in the form of Armour and Hit Points. In Iron, however, a certain phase is reached in which certain civs are able to dominate the battlefields by flooding them with swordsmen/Legions. The advantages to Legions in this phase is primarily that they are cheap and train fast, as well as provide the most amount of bang for the bucks of any unit in the game.

Hoplites: This line is, to some degree, even more useless in Bronze than Swordsmen, due to their extremely slow speed, which makes them even more vulnerable than swordsmen to missile units and Priests. When they do get their iron-clad hands on something, however, it GOES DOWN, and stays there. A few civs, however, can make effective use of Hoplites, if in the hands of a proficient player. Macedonian is simply the best for this; three of the primary weaknesses of Hoplites are greatly reduced, namely the vulnerability to Archers, Priests, and their small line of Sight. In addition, Macedonians have the relatively best Siege in Bronze, combined with Compies. Used correctly, this combo is darn near undefeatable in Bronze. Greeks, of course, have their marathon Hoppers. Basically, this makes the Greek hoppers far less vulnerable to Siege, and a slight tad less vulnerable to the other foes of Academy. Carthage has extra hit point hoppers, which it basically shouldn't use except possibly against Mace; in all other cases, it would be giving away a tough unit to the opponent.
In Iron, Academy is useful for its countereffect. Academy can effectively counter both Elephants and Scythes, and basically crush anything they get their hands on, except the higher-end Towers.

But the idea of making Academy units more vulnerable to Cavalry is just plain moronic. It would almost completely remove any usefulness Academy might still have in Bronze. The game is balanced and realistically accurate as it is, with Infantry being particularly vulnerable to Cavalry, wheras Academy is not, and will slaughter any Cavalry unit stupid enough to get close. It is as it should be.

APC_Doink
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 03:21 PM ET (US)     6 / 25       
To be successful with infantry though, one must be an aggressive attacker. These slow units are horrible for defense. Someone I read a Greek guide on how to use them when you are unlucky enough to draw them in random and it said they are best when attacking.
Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 04:57 PM ET (US)     7 / 25       
I played 80 games with a Greece only ID... they suck believe me ! If they at least got camels they would become twice as good. Greece and Choson are the 2 worst bronze civs in my opinion coz they almost lost any raiding hability coz of the camels. Greece hoplite sucks in bronze they are still too slow. At least you can catch compies with hoppers but the fun really ends when opponent goes CA. You then restart building cavs he can make camels you get raped. A CA/Camel duo can beat aything greece as to offer. Plus people disconect on you when you win! This is not a joke I must have one the highest dc per game ratio ever it's exactly 10 games that didn't count out of 80. So 1/8 of the time opponent would dc on my poor greece! Somewhat humiliating tho to lost to a greece cavs rush when you are shang .
Local_Yokel
Clubman
posted 07-20-99 08:34 PM ET (US)     8 / 25       
Whoever uses swordsmen in bronze is a dumb-ass. Whoever
attacks with less than 100 legions is a dumb-ass. Whoever thinks they can win against 100 legions is a dumb-ass.

-Local_Yokel

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 07-20-99 08:39 PM ET (US)     9 / 25       
Buzzzzzz. Sorry, wrong answer, Local_Yokel. Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.

Jeez, this is indeed less forgiving. Not only does it matter what order you close stuff down, it matters whether you do.

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 07-20-99).]

FWH_Wolfpack
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 11:40 PM ET (US)     10 / 25       
Infantry rocks and is incredibly fun to play with. If you're interested, I'll play you Ryan. I'll take rome. Just look me up on the zone.

Also, Local_Yokel, what have you been smoking??? Perhaps you should consider using that grey matter between your ears before you post again. Also Sebsoft, I think greek and carth are the two worst bronze civs, IMO.

ZELDA_Gannon
Inactive
posted 07-20-99 11:54 PM ET (US)     11 / 25       
yet again, im willing to bet Anyone who is enar my skill i could beat you with rome using a primarilly swordsmen army (the key is using mixed arms with upgraded slingers and cav, throwing a few st in as targets )
Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 07-21-99 00:46 AM ET (US)     12 / 25       
Altough I have played carth twice and choson 30 times I think carth has better bronze for the reason that they can go full stable. They got camels and cavs while choson is stuck with cavs which will just die to camels. Choson has great towers and cheap priests which could either mean a priest rush against non charriot civs or to play very defensivly with em which is usually a bad idea in my opinion (perhaps this is my fault tho am not good in defense). Carth vs Choson in bronze should perhaps be won by choson coz of the priests but against charriots civs carth can go camels. Plus a choson cavs rush can be countered by camels while carth can gradually switch to camels as the game progress. Really depends on which civs you face. If opponent has no camels choson can go cavs and do fine. Humm I'm not even sure at this point. One thing for sure tho they have both very little effective units in bronze!
Wuzat
Clubman
posted 07-21-99 05:07 PM ET (US)     13 / 25       
My general attack in bronze for Rome is a swordsmen and impie attack. 2 rax and 1 range at LEAST. Sometimes i add in some chariots or slingers, and mayvbe a cav or 2.
Wascally_Wabbit
Clubman
posted 07-21-99 05:49 PM ET (US)     14 / 25       
What can I say? I often play Macedonian, and although they're not so hot on the recieving end (CAs rarely stop to fight if you know what i mean), if you can get into the enemies town, it won't be standing much longer.
As for swordsmen - these are THE most effective longterm unit - 15gold per man and you can crank out hundreds. I'm sorry, but anyone who says infantry is useless obviously hasn't played this game enough.
Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 07-21-99 06:41 PM ET (US)     15 / 25       
Just out of the blue rabbit ever heard of archery units? Compies are perhaps the most cost effective unit not swoards! Infantry can't do a thing in front of a CA army. Infantry isn't useless if you wanna counter stable units with hoplite. Swoardies? In iron legions r good (or choson long swoards) but in bronze in my opinion they are either used to kill a newbie or to actually make fun of your opponent or to kill a camel rusher. They r really weak in my opinion. Perhaps my 600 games played (combined ids) wasn't enough for me to enjoy the value of infantry?

Mace hoppers r in my opinion the only great infantry in bronze. Perhaps I should experiment more with roman swoards tho... Axers r great as they assume the role of fastest tool rush, scout killers and slinger killers. Infantry isn't useless it's just rarely useful (counting out tool fights).

A tought on Roman I remember a quote for Methos saying that if you were ever teamed up with him and go with a bronze roman swoards rush without having tool rush your opponent you would ear him b1tch on you til the game is over!

[This message has been edited by Sebsoft (edited 07-21-99).]

Wascally_Wabbit
Clubman
posted 07-22-99 05:39 PM ET (US)     16 / 25       
Hey come on, I just didn't want to repeat what had just been said about Iron Choson.
Oh yes (sorry), Macedonian are the best bronze age civ. No arguing
Conquesticus
Clubman
posted 03-14-02 10:09 PM ET (US)     17 / 25       
Reading this ancient post today made me wonder about something. I always thought academy units got bonuses vs elephants. But wouldn't that also give them bonuses versus all cav units? I'm not too versed on the "behind the numbers" unit bonuses. Like on AOK I hear it's a +15 attack vs cav, but I can never find that anywhere in the manual. What are the infantry bonuses vs other unit types in ROR?
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 03-15-02 11:23 PM ET (US)     18 / 25       
Academy units don't have any bonuses against war elephants. They just do good vs. them because they have inherently high attack and high armor (a cent has 8+6 = 14 armor, and war elephant does 15 damage...armored elephants fare much better, however, and any missile unit can kick the crap out of cents, so I don't recommend using them much at all).

For a list of anti-unit bonuses, check out mrfixit's unit sheets. Notables are the +8/+4 attack camels do to horses/chariots and the +2 attack slingers do to missile units (including ships, but I wouldn't attack scout ships with slingers unless you had a whole lot of them...)

Iron Hoplite
Clubman
posted 01-16-03 12:51 PM ET (US)     19 / 25       
'Ack! I'm absolutely shocked by this ancient thread...

I guess I still get some room to forgive them. Greek Hoppers are formidable against even chariot archer rushes, providing bronze shield is researched. I remember killing a horde of about 12 chariot archers, upgraded with Scale Armour with only 5 Hoppers, with only the Toolworking upgrade.

But then, not many things were experimented at those good 'ol days, were they?


Heck... who can beat a Mithril Colossus Hoplite like I am one now...?
Besides, Zeus agreed to help me, and Athena to love me...
Centurion
Clubman
posted 01-17-03 02:05 AM ET (US)     20 / 25       
whoa...an old one.

GlobalChimp
I don't cry. But my guitar does.
Delirious Lab
Clubman
(id: Benoit)
posted 01-17-03 09:03 AM ET (US)     21 / 25       

Quote:

Greek Hoppers are formidable against even chariot archer rushes, providing bronze shield is researched. I remember killing a horde of about 12 chariot archers, upgraded with Scale Armour with only 5 Hoppers, with only the Toolworking upgrade.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if your opponent had been any good at managing CA's, your hoppies would have died. Shoot, run away, shoot again.

Iron Hoplite
Clubman
posted 01-17-03 12:31 PM ET (US)     22 / 25       

Quoted from Benoit:

if your opponent had been any good at managing CA's, your hoppies would have died. Shoot, run away, shoot again

Hmm, good point. Unfortunately, all the games I played (even against computer), they didn't seem to use this tactic, so I guess I'll have yet to see this.

I usually have Cavalry to back them up, anyway...


Heck... who can beat a Mithril Colossus Hoplite like I am one now...?
Besides, Zeus agreed to help me, and Athena to love me...
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 01-17-03 04:03 PM ET (US)     23 / 25       
The only disadvantage of that strat is it takes a lot of micromanagement so if you can split your army and keep your opponent busy slaughtering your hoopies another part of your army could have a go at their town but I don't know if that would work every or even any time.
CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 01-18-03 11:05 AM ET (US)     24 / 25       
Infantry is only useful to Rome and Choson who's infantry are better than most other melee units at the time.

CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
AoEH Staff

'In heaven an angel is nobody in particular.' - George Bernard Shaw
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JK_daddy
Clubman
posted 01-18-03 09:12 PM ET (US)     25 / 25       
hoplites straight out sux vs ca even greek ones...+4 armour on mass ca will rape cavs also
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