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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Bronze Time in Hill Country Map
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Topic Subject:Bronze Time in Hill Country Map
Themistocles
Clubman
posted 11-29-98 11:49 AM ET (US)         
I was just wondering what a good bronze time on a Hill Country map was. At normal speed (1.0), with the Macedonians, I got a 21:00 bronze time against a friend. I had 23 villagers and 4 slingers (I needed them to stop a weak tool rush). There was absolutely no water at all, so I had to rely on berries and had to farm. Farming is apparently essential in Hill Country as there were no animals near me. I was just wondering whether this time was at all good, since other people are always saying that 13:00-15:00 minutes is a good bronze time. I am assuming that this is when there are fish around. My friend was Roman and bronzed about 2 minutes after me. I ended up killing him with lots of hoplites.


Themistocles

[This message has been edited by Themistocles (edited 11-29-98).]

AuthorReplies:
Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-29-98 01:30 PM ET (US)     1 / 13       
    Hey Themistocles! I play Hill Country all the time on the Zone, and even with a heavy Tool Rush of 2 scouts+4 slingers I get times like 19:00 min at 1.0 speed. Of course, I use the Toll Rush only when I'm behind in bronze time compared to the other players, otherwise I usually Bronze in around 15:30 min with 4 slingers (the slingers are a must in Hill Country). I think it to be impossible to get better times in Hill Country than 15:00. I tried everything but I couldn't do it.


~Barbarosa~


Themistocles
Clubman
posted 11-29-98 02:18 PM ET (US)     2 / 13       
Barbarosa-

Thanks- I played against some friends again and got an 18:00 (no slingers, 24 villagers). I had an awesome starting spot and might have gotten a better time but I got a bit distracted when my girlfriend called.


Themistocles

Hyperion
Inactive
posted 11-29-98 02:53 PM ET (US)     3 / 13       
It can certainly be done much faster than that. I've only played a few times on hill country: but in one game I tooled at 9:07 with the Persians and 750 food in hand. Since I had built 2 clubmen, this meant that I could have had 850 food available to bronze with.

I only had about 180 wood, so I scout + axe rushed: but I'm sure I could have bronzed around 13:00, if I'd been interested in bronzing.

I didn't want to let the bad guys put up walls, though. Especially since none of my storage pits were near any gold, and I already had a wood crisis.

I think Persian and Shang should both be able to consistently bronze before or around 14:00 on hill country. For the other civs...well, it's a question of scouting. I would think Yamato or Assyrian could do it around 15:00 every single time, since cutting down on walking time is a really big deal on hill country.

From what I can tell about the way most people play hill country bronze time may not be so relevant. I have yet to play a rated game on hill country where an opponent made it to the bronze age with any resources or, for that matter, workers.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 11-29-98 10:37 PM ET (US)     4 / 13       
OK a few weeks ago I was practicing this for the tourney so I played it at 1.5 spd. I concluded the following to fast bronze for the 1v1 tourney setting:
1) Play Shang no matter what.. food is scarce !
2) Unless you luck out and find a big nearby game preserve you will have to find a second
berry patch NO MATTER WHAT to bronze w/20 peons.. even if you hunt your way to bronze
you will be slower and still need more food to fuel any attack... thus ...
3) You gotta find that 2nd patch NO MATTER WHAT.. so somewhere between peons 12 -16 you better get out and explore... aha "Lions, and Tigers, and Bears.. Oh My !!" nope just lions and lots of em. Your single peons become cat food ! .. which leads to ...
4) Explore for the berries w/ groups of two peons spaced 3-4 tiles apart and given a ctrl# . The group of two has increased vision and sometimes 2 peons killed a pride of two lions w/out losses. I send out 2 groups of 2 ctrl#1 and ctrl#2 somewhere between peons 12-18ish depending how things are going. I practiced waypointing them in zig zags with each pair covering half the map starting nearby. If one peon gets eaten the other continues to explore. As soon as you find the 2nd patch slap up a granery and get the other explore group and some other
berrypickers to it as the first runs out.
5) Manage wood right and u get just enough to bronze w/2 graneries one pit by wood/game
for later, one rax, and 2 tool buildings
6) How fast is this?... well I broke 14 every time vs the computer when i found the 2nd patch reasonably quickly and one game i got 12:08 and another 12;27 when the berries were found quickly !!
7) The trouble with this is if you don't find the berries you are in trouble.. in the tourney I had 54% exploration and still no 2nd patch.So I bronzed late and butchered the game rushing into an assy ambush.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 11-29-98 10:45 PM ET (US)     5 / 13       
Re: my fast bronze post here.. I am not convinced that this is the best over all strategy here.. tooling fast and flooding the map with scouts is very strong on 1v1 large map.
1) You may kill him w/big scout rush or at least severely wound him and slow him way down.
2) You will know where everything is.. he won't.. so if he escapes.. walls off or has enough bowmen to keep your scouts at bay.. you both bronze 18-20ish anyways but you know where all the resources are.
3) I would hope to have game nearby to fuel the scout rush/build up.. farming that early is just to slow.. ie you gotta chop the wood, then build it then gather it ! Try to farm later !


mud buddha2
Inactive
posted 11-29-98 11:26 PM ET (US)     6 / 13       
um....you bronze at 12:08 in hell country? at 1.5?? do you mean you pressed the button at 12:08 or you were in the bronze age at 12:08?


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 11-30-98 00:16 AM ET (US)     7 / 13       
Yes I was bronzed by 12:08 , ie I hit the upgrade at 9:48. Sometimes on better maps as Shang, I get high 11's in practice going all
berries, 2 graneries.. got low 11 once with a double berry patch and no other food source!

I am no expert at ROR, but I do know how to bronze superfast with a decent map, but the rest of my game, especially fighting is weak.. just ask anyone who plays with me.

On the 12;08 hell country game my first group of 2 explorers found the patch very quickly just as I was sending out the second group. The key is SHANG.. listen to my math.. 20 peons ie u make 17 x 35= 595 food.. minus the 200 u start with= 395..plus 500 to tool = 895 plus 800 to bronze = 1695 ! If your two patches have 12 bushes that 1800 food .. mission successful! And u can get a scout during the transition.. off course during that time you are hunting hopefully to get some food to fuel the coming rush while mining gold for camels/cav.. a couple get sent in ASAP .. the maybe I switch to CA's and clearly my scout has found the enemy and more food.
I usually built a cav or two first since even though they take 10 sec more to make , they are tougher vs vil's(off course armored assuming I got the food.. not always did I) and have +5 attack vs the clubbers/axers he may have made once he saw my scout. After a cav or 2 it's usually camel's if I think he can bronze and hit back !
1.5 speed hurts little since u put lots of guys on food and can HC or HCC while keeping and extra 35 food in the que.. thus losing little micromanagement time !


Themistocles
Clubman
posted 11-30-98 00:51 AM ET (US)     8 / 13       
Those are some damn good times. Is this on default start/resouces? I play on Gigantic maps with only 2 players, does that make a difference? Perhaps my problem is that I'm Macedonian and not Shang. I am confident that if I last until Bronze I can beat anybody with Macedonians so I'm going to stick with them.


Themistocles

Methos
Big Daddy
posted 11-30-98 01:40 AM ET (US)     9 / 13       
I played a few practice games on this map for the tournament and nailed a 12 minute bronze with Shang. However, I believe bronze rushing on large hell country to be a bad strategy. I ended up going with all tool rushes, which were highly successful.


Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-30-98 10:12 AM ET (US)     10 / 13       
    I definitely agree that going for a fast Bronze Rush in Hill Country is a mistake, but I strongly disagree that we should have Shang games on such maps. Shang is simply too superior to the other civs on Hill Country, and I consider the Bronze times achieved with Shang irrelevant for this thread.
    The game is a lot more fun to play with the other civs, and your field of view should not stop at Shang only. On the Zone, when I host my own rooms (for this is the only way to play Hill Country nowdays), I include the note "No Shang". This is the only way to ensure I'll have a fun game to play.
    There was only one instance where I played against a Shang on Hill Country, and I was Minoan(not a great choice either). I was Tool Rushed with bowmen when I was just hitting the Tool button, and I was rushed with Camels when I got to build my first archeries. Somehow I managed to make his entire Camel+ST army bite the dust, after I managed to hide and build a strong army of compies, but he managed to destroy my town and kill all of my vills while I was destroying his own buildings. My compies were too slow to keep up with his fast villagers, and so he moved from place to place and villager boomed until I was too tired of running from town to town.
    The player told me it was the first time he played Shang, so I'll leave the conclusion up to you .


~Barbarosa~


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 11-30-98 01:55 PM ET (US)     11 / 13       
I haven't lost to a Shang player on hill country once. While I concede that they are better than Persians, they can't rush any faster, and have less food initially. The only real advantage comes later in tool after the villagers start dying on both sides, and the food begins to dry up.

I wish they weren't better than Persians, but there you have it. They're not _hopelessly_ better than Persians.

Persians are far faster than any other civilization (except, of course, Shang) on hill country. Nearly half the time, I seem to be able to build a storage pit first by five plus deer - which is 750 food at faster than shore fishing rate - and a forest. Persians can boom while they tool rush just as well as the Shang. I even find that now that the farming penalty is gone I sometimes farm with them, which I never, ever, ever did before.

Maybe the real difference between the Shang players and me on hill country is that they were only mostly committing to a tool rush, while I had no intention of ever bronzing. There's no reason not to upgrade wood cutting and stone mining in tool if you don't plan to bronze; but a lot of people on hill country stop at 2 or 3 techs - the attack and armor upgrades - and seem to be waiting to push the bronze button before they upgrade woodcutting.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 11-30-98 04:58 PM ET (US)     12 / 13       
All my hill country practice and games were on the default large map tournament settings.
Clearly I can't say that the bronze rush is the best strategy here, but I won every practice game vs humans when I was able to bronze by 14:30.. however I also won every
practice game where I tool rushed, other than my first game I played on that setting.
Since, I have more confidence in my bronze rush and realized that I was usually several
minutes ahead of the opposition I choose that strategy for the tourney. However, if you don't find enough food fast enough, you can get into trouble. In contrast, as Shang, you should be able to tool first(except maybe vs a hunting Persian) and then if no 2nd patch is food you still can fuel the tool rush with a bit of hunting once your initial berries run out.
I also got bronzes in the 14's using 1 patch, hunting, and a farm since I could tell I was short a bit of meat. I got a high 13, w/1 patch of 7 berries and hunting alone.
... however, I do agree, a tool attack is better... and you can do it every time!


Out4Blood
Clubman
posted 12-03-98 00:30 AM ET (US)     13 / 13       
On hell country, I never bronze. The game is almost always over in tool. Tool fast (8:00 - 9:00 for me - slowpoke) and make nothing but scouts. Ten scouts and the game is over. Go ahead and bronze - but you'll never get another food source and the 800 food goes along way with scouts.

Dustyn is the EXPERT at scout rushing, especially on hell country. Even better than Sheriff. (Methos ain't even close :-)

Map control and scouting are keys on hell country. Locate resources and deny resources (food) to enemy. These carry the day easily. Just remember to locate the enemy villagers first, then build at least 2 stables nearby, upgrade armor and attack and go at it.

I would like to test persians on hell, since their crappy economy is not crappy at all in tool - in fact they have the best economy in hell country stone/tool.

I am just too chicken to play persians. Shang is for wussies. Since I am a wussy, I guess I'll stick with shang.


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