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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » shang is too scary
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Topic Subject:shang is too scary
epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 11-29-98 01:45 AM ET (US)         
Tonight I played a game that clearly demonstrated the shang dominance.

It was continential, huge? I teamed with choson_teal against dr_grand and green (cant remember his name). I was shang, choson_teal and dr_grand were minoan and green was hittite.

I got a pretty good spot, forest about 4 tiles away from TC. I boomed in a tipical fashion. tooled around 9:30, then send 4 fully upgraded scouts to harrass green and killed over 10 of his vils. In the mean whlie, I found I had enough resource to go bronze. I bronzed at 14:30, the first to reach bronze, with 36 vils and boats! Needless to say, we won.

Booming + rushing + first bronze, shang totally kick ass. That's too scary. Admittedly I am a good player , but I cannot do it with another civ.


AuthorReplies:
epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 11-29-98 02:16 AM ET (US)     1 / 10       
Just tried to redo it. Played with computer on a huge continential, reveal. Spot ok, not great.

Tooled at 9:30, built 4 fully upgraded scouts. bronzed at 14:30 with 37 vils, boats, 700 food! had wood cutting and gold mining reserached. 2 stables.

man, you cant beat that unless you are shang yourself.


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 11-29-98 03:16 PM ET (US)     2 / 10       
If only that were all. I played a random civ game last night on continental - the bad guys got 2 Shang and an Egyptian against our Sumerian, Persian, and Minoan team.

They sportingly didn't tool rush us. I boomed with the Sumerians, and ironed around 22:00. I was the first to iron.

The Shang beat us in the iron age. Now, I'm not the best Sumerian player (far from it). But I didn't have the feeling that they outplayed me really badly. I had no good way of coping with their scythe chariots except my own...and I couldn't build ballistas to back them up, or cut wood fast enough to build as many. They had better priests for my elephants. They had good enough catapults for my towers. The Persian elephants died horribly in helepolis wars. The only thing we had going for us was that we won the war at sea...which helped.

But something's badly wrong here.


j_bourne
Inactive
posted 11-29-98 05:00 PM ET (US)     3 / 10       
Hyperion, did you try protecting your cats with phalanxes? Phalanxes will trash regular non-egyptian scythes and protect the cats, while the cats take out Helos. It takes a little micromanagement but you should be able to save a few cats. Equally importantly, it would save you wood.

Just an idea,
J.


[This message has been edited by j_bourne (edited 11-29-98).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 11-29-98 10:06 PM ET (US)     4 / 10       
Epic_Hoplite demonstrated Shang's strength in a 3v3 last night as he did the same thing and was the major factor in killing all of us !! Shang is nasty in the right hands !
Good game. - neilkaz -


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 11-30-98 02:02 PM ET (US)     5 / 10       
I did try protecting my catapults with both elephants and phalanxes, Mr Bourne. They killed the chariots, which was good, but they didn't save the catapults.

And there were always helepoli (and often priests) looming into sight right after the chariots closed. Scythe chariots kill even protected catapults very quickly, especially since I'm not good at having catapults not destroy each other.

What's the trick to managing that, anyway?
Lots of DM players don't seem to have my problem with catapults blowing each other to kingdom come.


j_bourne
Inactive
posted 11-30-98 02:48 PM ET (US)     6 / 10       
hehe sounds like an extremely frustrating situation. I'm sorry about that. When using cats where I expect Scythes/Cav, I try to space them out a little and, equally if not more importantly, as soon as they get off their shots (or 2 sets of shots in the case of a sumerian) I order them to move back. Same thing if he sends villagers. If the cats are busy moving back they can't fire. I find hotkeying the catapults helps with this. If you're fighting helos, I would imagine one individual cat shot would be enough to knock out 1-2 Helos. Scythes are notoriously poor-sighted and should run smack into your phalanxes when they head for where your Cats were. As his new groups of helos and priests move up, your "moved-back" cats should be able to splat em again.

This is the annoying micromanagement part of my earlier post and is inherently a pain because of Cats' splash damage. You also have to be sure your "moved-back" cats don't splat your own infantry which are fighting the scythes. The spacing helps enormously any time splash/trample damage is involved. I once managed to take out an ENORMOUS number of Hittite cats with 4-5 Minoan Heavy Cats spaced out carefully because the Hittite had, typically, got them all in one big MASSIVE group.

A third thing I do with Cats is wait for his units to come into range since that way the Cats seem to auto-fire better than if they're moving towards the enemy themselves.

Finally, I don't know how the DMers do it though there are some good DM sites out there.

J.

[This message has been edited by j_bourne (edited 11-30-98).]

Hyperion
Inactive
posted 11-30-98 03:37 PM ET (US)     7 / 10       
Hmm, yes, that seems like it should work.

I don't mind losing in iron. I always knew it was the weakest part of my game.

It's just that I could lose to shang in iron with what many people consider a topline iron age civilization that concerned me. I think it was only the second time I had gone to iron with Sumerian, which probably had a lot to do with it.

Even so...


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 11-30-98 11:13 PM ET (US)     8 / 10       
Well, I said, this before, and it is about balancing. ES said they tried it but didn't feel it was necessary.. but let very strong players test it ! The simple fix is to make Shang peons cost 40 food.. they'd still be the fastest civ, but a bit less dangerous early on than now, so other civ's with military advantages can compete a bit better. I still think Shang's lack of range, hurts their siege units, and certainly I'd like to add alchemy to their towers/ HA's, but can't, and they don't get coinage. ES feels that some of these penalties are enough to make them balanced, but I think in the hands of experts.. having to pay 40 food per peon would be just right!


Kleitus
Clubman
posted 12-01-98 10:50 AM ET (US)     9 / 10       
neilkaz, you're wrong. fact is, it wouldnt even be close. all that would do would put them on about even footing with phoenician, which is also heads and shoulders above everyone else.


Out4Blood
Clubman
posted 12-02-98 11:48 PM ET (US)     10 / 10       
Epic - you should have stayed tool and made even more scouts!

I played one of those random civ games in a 4 on 4. I got shang, tooled at 8:00, and made upgraded scouts from 2-3 stables.

By 13:00 I had killed all of one civ, half of another, and found the third with 3 new scouts.

By 15:00 3 of the 4 opponents were bronze, I had 65 kills (my allies had zero) and the other side resigned.

There is DEFINITELY something wrong here, but it is ALL ES's fault.

They can still fix this with a patch - no slingers/camels maybe for shang and take away phony chariots. For starters.


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