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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Macedonia of today - to all greeks
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Topic Subject:Macedonia of today - to all greeks
Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-28-98 12:19 PM ET (US)         
    To all greeks out there, I have a quick question, to which I need a straight answer. Are the Macedonians of today acknowledged by the greeks as a distinct people with a distinct language? If not, why is that?


~Barbarosa~


AuthorReplies:
Themistocles
Clubman
posted 11-28-98 07:45 PM ET (US)     1 / 6       
I have returned from my wonderful 10 day Thanksgiving vacation. Hello to all.

Nowadays, the Greeks are trying to claim that the Macedonians are not a separate people. But back then they thought of them as Hellenized barbarians (at best).


Themistocles


[This message has been edited by Themistocles (edited 11-28-98).]

[This message has been edited by Themistocles (edited 11-28-98).]

Makedonec
Inactive
posted 11-28-98 08:57 PM ET (US)     2 / 6       
A big part of Greece, Bulgaria, Albany and Serbia (Yugoslavia) was included in Macedonia before World War 1.

After World War 2, Macedonia was weak and every country took land from Macedonia. (Greece took the biggest).

After World War 2 Macedonia was the same it is now on the newer maps.

If you find world maps before World war 2 you can find Macedonia a lot bigger and I mean A LOT BIGGER than it is now.
Than Macedonia and the other surronding contries but not Greece formed one big country called Yugoslavia. Than after the war in Bosnia (9 yrs. ago) all those countries were seperated and Macedonia became it's own country. Everyone accepted that except Greece.

Anyway, my point is that the people from Greece are bunch of idiots and f****** shits and I can talk like this all night!!!!!!!!

(SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANYONE)

TIP FOR U GUYS: READ HISTORY BOOKS. HELPS A LOT BECOUSE I AM JUST TELLING VERY SHORT VERSION OF THIS DISCUSION.


Your old Friend,
M A K E D O N E C


CelticWarLord
Inactive
posted 11-30-98 08:23 AM ET (US)     3 / 6       
After the break-up of Yugoslavia, the Greek government objected to the newly-independant state of Macedonia calling itself "Macedonia". I think they were scared that people of Macedonian origin living in modern Greece would try to join with their northern cousins. That's why the country is officially called "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". If they hadn't chosen this long-winded name, Greece would have tried to stop other countries from recognising them.

Away from politics and back with AoE, this shows one of the problems that ES must have had in choosing the tribes. In the Bronze Age Mycenae dominated Greece/the Balkans. In Iron, it was first Athens and later Macedonia (I am simplifying this a lot). In the Greek campaign in the original game, the first few scenarios were about Mycenae and the last was about Macedonia, but it was all called "Ascent of Athens".

On the other hand, were Sumer and Babylon really different tribes, or the same tribe in different ages? If the former, then "Iron Age Sumerian" never existed, but if the latter then why two seperate tribes?

I guess the answer is: there's no simple answer, so good gameplay has to win over historical accuracy.


Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-30-98 09:52 AM ET (US)     4 / 6       
    Well, first of all, I was expecting some answers from our Greek friends, but I guess I'm not going to get any.
    Second of all, the Macedonians were never Greek, and not of Greek origin. They were of totally different ancestries, with a different tongue, tradition, and religion. Even today, they are bilingual, and managed to preserve their language which is entirely different from Greek. Herodotus himself wrote about how Alexander I, son of Amintas - a Macedonian king who lived a century before Herodotus, was rejected from the Olympic games because he was not Greek.
    I'm not going to mention the Macedonians' origin, as I know there are going to be a few people out there to contradict me, but I consider it a shame how they are being denied their identity by the Greeks.


~Barbarosa~

[This message has been edited by Barbarosa (edited 11-30-98).]

andyhre
Clubman
posted 12-01-98 02:26 PM ET (US)     5 / 6       
All I want to say on this issue is that there have been many, many waves of migration into the Balkans and to look at the ethnicity of the people today and try to draw major conclusions about the ethnicity of, say, Alexander the Great, would be a mistake.

The Macedonians who made up Alexander's army and then became the ruling classes of the Successor kingdoms spoke Greek. Cleopatra, the last of the Successor leaders, still spoke Greek as her first language. If you read the classical sources, it is hard to tell if there was a separate Macedonian language, because it might be just a greek dialect, but in any case, the Macedonian generals were able to speak standard Greek in addition to their native dialect/language.

As for assuming the Macedonians of Alexander's time were the same as a the Slavic-speaking people of Macedonia today, I think that would be a mistake. The Slavs migrated into the Balkans well after the time of Alexander, and the list of peoples who have lived south of the Danube since the collapse of Rome is quite numerous. I think to try to draw conclusions about Ancient Macedonians from modern ones would be akin to drawing conclusions about Ancient Epirus from modern Albanian -- you would conclude that they were Muslims! And you'd be missing the impact of hundreds of years of Ottoman presence. Heck this sort of logic would lead you to conclude that my region, California, was primarly European (Anglo and Spanish) in ethnicity 2000 years ago! Migration matters, folks.

I am somewhat agnostic on the issue of "Were the Macedonians Greek?" as a matter of ethnicity. I know many ancient Greeks felt they were not but then changed their minds once they were conquered. I know that while ancient Macedonians longed to be considered part of the Greek world and spoke Greek, they also disdained Eumenes, the one Greek among Alexander's successors (and quite a good general, though he was eventually betrayed). I know that culturally these people were MUCH more similar to each other than the Greeks and, say, Persians. And I am certain that the people living in the region today cannot be used as a very reliable yardstick for the people living their over 2000 years ago, unless careful attention is paid to migration.

Andy


[This message has been edited by andyhre (edited 12-01-98).]

Alexander the Great
Clubman
posted 12-01-98 07:49 PM ET (US)     6 / 6       
I consider the Ancient Macedonians Greek but not the Modern Macedonians. Maybe I think of It that way because I don't want to think of the Greeks as being conquered around 300 b.c. I don't remember the date because I don't want to know when Greece was conquered.

Maybe the modern Greeks don't like the modern Macedonians because they think that history might repeat it'self (Macedonia conquers Greece.)


Alexander the Great
Minister of Infanty Equality

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