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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Thought on Palmyra
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Topic Subject:Thought on Palmyra
ZELDA_Gannon
Inactive
posted 06-22-99 07:59 AM ET (US)         
Here are a few things I thought ofwhile waiting to be killed in a recent game.These are my opnion and FAR from expert, tell me if you see any large glaring problems, and i would enjoy some feedback.(On the paragraphs I will state facts then give some comments.)

Millitary
Palmy has a large selection of millitary in all ranges, missing very few units and have all the storage pit upgrades, minus tower shield. This is a nice feature since it gives you that all mighty element of surprise, which is very handy(i would explain more on that but thats been done 100 times in 400 places so why bother). Palmy has fast camels this is really their most useless bonus since most people stay from cav these days, but if you ever do see 10 cav in on the other side of your town from your stable it is usefull then, also it is usefull in allowing your forwarb buildings to be a bit farther back, reducing there chance at being found, which allows you to get a nice surprise villager raid. Also, since palmy has those nice jacked-price villagers, you tend to have less (while still gathering at the same rate) it will allow a few more units in the pop limit, which is always nice to have.
Lastly, They have those armored villies, making them the best stone rush civ (I lost to this once).

Economy
Ahh this is where Palmy truly shines, or crashes, depending on how you play them, I dont have the RoR book handy, but i believe what they like is Irrigation, Craftsmanship (? final wood upgrade name??), and coinage. They also
Have superfast gatherers, and while i dont have the exact stats i believe that theres farms are almost as fast as shore fish (?), which is useful if, for some reason, you end up farming early. Ahh but there downfall is there 75 food villies, i honestly think this is too much and 60 is a more appropriate price (MAX), becuase this really messed up what could of been another Arse Kicking civ. Finally they have the double (?) gold per trade, which really isnt useful except for those long games in which your basically playing DM.

Some closing thought
While i personally, never use palmy and usually quit when i get them in random civs, they are a decent civ IF played proparlly, with a decent spot, however most people dis them cuase of those damned expensive villagers, however i really think if these villagers were normal price they would be stronger than shang, becuase they have a strong iron. It seems to me as if ES mightve rushed them a bit, becuase they really coulda used a bit more testing.


Ok thats about it, f anyone has a question dont ask me becuase i dont know, if you want to email me click Kartman85@juno.com[/EMAIL],[EMAIL]Kartman85@juno.com , or Kartman85@juno.com .
Thanks for listening and please reply with any comments or problems.

DAMN IT! I edited this post and now I lost the nifty center effect

[This message has been edited by ZELDA_Gannon (edited 08-22-99).]

[This message has been edited by ZELDA_Gannon (edited 08-22-99).]

AuthorReplies:
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-22-99 10:43 AM ET (US)     1 / 15       
Military -- Palmy does have a robust military through the Bronze, but not after. Let me explain what I mean. Their HAs don't get the extra range from Craftsmanship, making them at least 11% worse than civs that do, moreso if you consider that you no longer will even see catapults until they fire. They don't get the last attack upgrade, so their SCs are emasculated. Their lackluster priests are only marginally better than Hittites'. But the real kicker is the lack of engineering for seige.

As for taking less pop spots for an equivalent economy, this is assuming the game does not go to Iron. In their infinite wisdom, ES decided to strip away the wood and gold upgrades, meaning that their econ is basically the same as any of the other civs that get those, but don't get the fringe benefits, i.e. the extra gold out of the gold mine, the extra carrying capacity, the extra archer/tower/ship range. So, yes, you save spots through Bronze, but have to make up for it with expensive villies in Iron.

BTW, don't underrate the camels, as they are the only thing that can keep up with the HHAs, and as long as the HHAs are running, they are not shooting.

Economy -- Close, but they only get the first farming tech, and their farming is only 0.45/sec, while other civs are 0.40/sec. Shorefishing is 0.6, 0.8 for Palmy. However, I don't think you can cut their cost like that and make it even. As I alluded to above, you have paid a high price for your boom, exhausting fully 50% more of your available food, but because of villager efficiency, its almost a wash, except for the fact that by the time other civs have exhausted 2 food sources, you have had to exhaust 3! If they were allowed to keep the production benefit, i.e., get the Iron econ upgrades, 75 would really be a bargain. As it is, when you Iron, you just paid 1500+ extra food to get toned down versions of what other civs get through their upgrades.

As for the trading, I usually play on gig maps. If the numbers truly were doubled, it would be worth it, but as it is, the top and bottom numbers are capped at the same values, and its easy to set up trade routes that operate at the cap. What other civs need to have to duplicate this amazing bonus is another 2 merchant ships. Big deal.

IMO, what would really have helped Palmy would be if the default resources were 225, not 200. Thus, they would get their 3rd villie out before having their long break in peon production. Or if their villagers had extra sight range to make up for the fact that they must find more food than other civs to break even.

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 06-22-99).]

Radagastt
Inactive
posted 06-22-99 10:55 AM ET (US)     2 / 15       
I disagree with a few points in this thread. First of all, calling the camel's speed bonus relatively useless, except for a few occasions? Have you ever seen what camels do to CA? With a +4 attack against chariot archers, I find camels to be the best CA killer out thier. Camels can handle anything that is thrown at you other than compies, hoppers, and BS. That speed bonus means they are exposed to less fire when they attack CA, and they get to ST before they do much damage. IMHO, the only way to get at Palmy in bronze is through compies. I ussually do a priest/camel defense with palmy, and it works quite well. The first game I tried this, I had the pocket, my egy partner was trying to Iron ASAP, but my other partner (phoe I think) was under attack by Hittite, and some Phoe, CA. Luckily, I had some of those camels near there, and I easily killed the CA. I made 9 camels for defense thier, and then I saw a hopper. When was the last time you saw a hittite hopper? So, I used my villie that had made the stables, and built a temple, then a priest. I then had a hopper and a priest. I made a few mroe priests, and that is all I needed to make for defense all game. I helod out 10 minutes against a hittite attacker using camels and priests, with a few CA helping me from my allie, while Hing_HIghlanders egy scythes killed our enemys.
Now, on to your next military point. you mentioned that armor, making them the best stone rush civ? with 75 food villies? Now, I havent tried this, or done much math, but ti seems that Sume villies will come out even with palmy villies in clubber wars... which means that sume is still the best.

Now on to your econemy thoughts.

Of course, palmy villagers aren't good in iron, but until then, thye are the best by far. Admitedly, the 75 food makes it a bit hard for some people to get tool/bronze fast, but it is actually quite easy with palmy. I almost allways get my 6th villie by 2 minutes, and have constant villie production from thier. As I use poobas guide when trying to tool fast w/ palmy, I can make 18 real villagers, and tool by 10:30 with most spots. All it requires is one gazelle herd by a forest, and one berrie patch- almost always somehting you can find. Technically, you could get a 13:30 bronze easily if you tried, w/ the equilavent of 24 real villagers. I never do that, preferring to tool boom, giving me a 40+ viilager, 15/16 min bronze easily w/ palmy, and I havent tested it enough to see how low I could get that bronze time.

On to your clsoing thoughts...

If they had normal price villagers, they would be, w/out a doubt, the best civ in the game. Of course, you are saying give minoa scyhtes, and they would be a much better civ in Iron... Give shang full civ and tiremes, and they would be one of the best Iron age civs...
Palmyra is as good of a civ as any, and I think anyone who quits upon getting them in Random civ should just stick to non random civ games becuase they obviosly can't handle anything except for civs like minoa, hittite, shang, or phoe, as palmyra is as good as a civ as any of the rest, IMHO. I do not beliece ES rushed them at all, they are, IMO, one of more enjoyable civs to play with, as they give you an entirely different way of playing RoR, and yet are still VERY comparable to most civs in the game.

Radagastt
Sarmis_Dionysos
(the person who obviusly has no idea what he is talking about here)

DaRq_DarkJihad
Clubman
posted 06-22-99 12:56 PM ET (US)     3 / 15       

Actually, Sumeria still holds the distinction of been the very best at stone age attacks.... 40 hps is worth more than 1 armor, 1v1, and it won't be 1v1 cause Summy has more villagers... take a look at it... each hit with a palmy vil does 3 damage, each with a sumer vil does 2.... so it takes the palmy 14 hits to kill our sumerian friend, but the palmy dies in 13 hits... leaving a 1 hp sumerian villager, woohoo ! and since its not 1v1 its even bigger than that....
armagedn
Clubman
posted 06-22-99 01:58 PM ET (US)     4 / 15       
Interestin' thread, ZG. However, I disagree with pretty much everything you said. Thorfinn already covered their military limitations, so I'll simply refer to your remark about the "useless" camel speed bonus. On the occasions I get Palmy in a random (or choose other team's civs) game, I rarely use them in an offensive capacity, but merely for support. However, provided your economy is strong (meaning you've SURVIVED till Bronze), then pump out camels.

Why? Because they're CHEAP, as well as fast. Make a couple groups of them, give each one a scout for its eyes, and villie raid. Anyone else's camels might have trouble keeping up with wheeled villies, especially yammie or assy ones. But Palmy camels, provided their "eyes" are nearby, can stay on the trail until the villies are all camel food.

As to your comment about the "element of surprise," well, Palmy may have a lot of units to choose from, but chances are, if you're playing against anyone with an economic advantage of their own, they're going to have more of whatever it is you're bringing to the table. Palmy's notoriously slow start CAN be overcome with a quick tool and heavy fishing boat boom, but they're such an inviting target in the early game, that, like Greek, they're usually toast long before they can give their economic aid to their pals.

Sure, you could "surprise" me with a Palmy vill rush, and I might be distracted from trying to contain my delight. The only way I could conceive of trying such a blatantly desperate move is if I'm in a Tiny or No-Fixed situation directly next to my opponent. In which case, running would STILL probably be the better option. Failing those situations, running your Palmy villies at someone in stone means you have a train to catch, or yer mom just demanded you go to bed, 'cause it's OVER, baby. Your opponent is GUARANTEED to outnumber you.

And, as to your comment about QUITTIN' if you got them in a Random Civ game, well, I hope yer joking about that. Suffice it to say that anyone that did that in a game w/ me would be someone who would not be welcome to play w/ me again.

ZELDA_Gannon
Inactive
posted 06-22-99 07:30 PM ET (US)     5 / 15       
Actually I didnt mean the bonus was nearly useless, i was just saying that I think there other bonuses are, also camels ARENT the best CA killers, IMHO, i think slingers(with stone mining and/or the bronze shield) are, and they are a lot more affordable!
apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-22-99 08:10 PM ET (US)     6 / 15       
As I recall, Palmy gets a .2 per sec upgrade on all resource gathering, making their farmers like other's shore fishers. Also, from what I understand, they ARE better in iron, tho by a VERY small amount. Someone check Mr.Fixit's page.
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-22-99 09:15 PM ET (US)     7 / 15       
Palmy get +0.2 on everything except farming. There they only get +0.05. And last I checked, Mr Fixit did not have those figures. Neilkaz gave them to us again here. (Your thread, actually, Apoc.)

Keep your stick on the ice.

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-22-99 09:37 PM ET (US)     8 / 15       
Thanks Thorfinn. I love being corrected, it happens SOOOOOOO often...

"Keep your stick off of my ice!"

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-23-99 10:08 AM ET (US)     9 / 15       
Here it is, all cleaned up and presented in a nice tabular format. Thanks to neilkaz for working up all the data and getting it in one place.


RoR Villager Gathering Rates
Numbers courtesy of neilkaz
ResourceCivBaseToolBronzeIron
BerriesPalmy0.65
Others0.45
Boat FishAll0.40
Shore FishPalmy0.80
Others0.60
WoodPhoe0.7550.9551.1551.355
Palmy0.7550.9551.155
Others0.5550.7550.9551.155
GoldEgypt/Palmy0.650.95
Others0.450.750.935
StoneBabs/Palmy0.650.951.25
Others0.450.751.05
FarmingPalmy0.45
Others0.40
HuntingPersia0.75
Palmy0.65
Others0.45

Jeez, that's a lot of tags to keep straight. Hope I didn't forget any... (Very doubtful, actually. I edited it locally until it looked right, and should only be messed up if cut-n-paste messes up.)

[BTW, if you want to copy the HTML to your own page, fine with me. It's a little "close tag" heavy because UBB requires you to close all, regardless of whether the standard calls them optional or not. So, if you are careful, you could edit it down to about 1k rather than 1.8k.]

[Oh, and obviously if your civ does not get the upgrade, you are stuck at the appropriate age rate... But I'm sure you could have figured that out.]

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 06-23-99).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 06-23-99 12:56 PM ET (US)     10 / 15       
A couple of things here and a Palmy discussion.

1) I have said that I don't mind anyone reprinting anything I published about gathering rates, movement speeds, rates of fire etc as long as I am given credit for it as Thorfinn did. Thx for making such a nice table for us Thorfinn.

2) With regards to Palmy with the assumption being that you're in a typical 3v3 w/random allies so you need to become big and strong and do a large portion of the fighting. Thus you'll not want to be a feeder, since your allies may not know what to do with it. You will have to be bronzed and able to attack powerfully in early bronze.

3) This start has resulted in low-mid 14's bronzes in two real games w/24-25 real vils. Clearly that many Palmy vils comprise a gathering capability equal to maybe 30-32 other civs real vils so you can really rake in the resources for that early bronze rush. OK, how do I spend 1575 food on 21 new vils and tool by 11:30 (requiring the gathering off 1875 food) ? Simply, by utilizing Palmy's BERRY gathering bonus (44% better) to gather MANY berries quickly. Thus I need a 2nd granary on a 2nd patch. I won't refuse a 3SF spot if I happen to see one either, but Palmy SFing is only 33% faster than others. Palmy hunting is also 44% better but hunting requires lost time in drawing/killing phants and in killing deer. When's the last time you managed to kill 6 deer and have them all very close to the pit ? Also with 5 or 6 guys on one dead phant some have to walk several steps around it and their buddies to get to the pit.
Thus the hunting bonus effectively tends to become slower. I won't turn down animals right by my wood pit but I won't go out of my way to hunt early as Palmy. I much prefer that 2nd berry patch where I can gather about 900 food with one building quickly w/little walking.

4) As for early docks w/Palmy DON'T overdo it and play them like a Phoe/Mino boat superboom if you want a fast bronze with many real vils. Palmy has no fish boat gathering advantage and I make one or two early docks MAX because I'd typically have about a dozen guys on land based food because I need to gather so much to make many real vils and tool reasonably quickly. You can bronze in the 14's playing Palmy with a 3 or 4 dock super boat boom but you'll find it very hard to have gathered enough food to have more than 18-20 real vils and tool before 12:00.

5) YES I attack with camels first and out of about 3 stables with a scout escort for eyes. Hopefully my scout found the victim quickly and stopped him from completing a complete wall in. My camels are 25% faster and vils have a very hard time escaping them. While this is going on I get wheel and prepare to add some CA's. How do I afford all this and to hopefully keep making new vils too ? I will have added some FB's during my bronze transition(and hopefully a couple scout ships) and I should be on a 3rd or 4th land based food source. I also have gotten wood chopping and gold mining upgraded to further improve my super workers.

6) Grabbing food QUICKLY allows me to practically make vils from the time I start #6 until I have 500 extra food to tool. Yes, they cost 50% more but I counter balance this by grabbing berries 44% faster (OK a bit less do to the occasional step) than other civs do. Remember that you can only make 1 vil every 20 sec from your TC and if I can gather LOTS of food to maintain this I can make many Palmy vils and still tool when most other civs do in 3v3's.

7) Palmy is just completely screwed by a bad map. Even somewhat bad berries will mean that you need 7 guys on them rather than 6 to maintain vil production. Poor wood will hurt you too. If you can't find added and substantial new food you'll have BIG problems. If anything goes wrong to slow you up and you get tool attacked, you must dial 911, or better yet just phone your undertaker !

...Get food quickly as Palmy...neilkaz...

lshaul
Clubman
posted 06-27-99 07:10 PM ET (US)     11 / 15       
The Facts:

Palmy gets phalanxes, chainmail, and iron shield. Does not have metallurgy, tower shield.

i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/i/

ZELDA_Gannon
Inactive
posted 08-22-99 03:33 AM ET (US)     12 / 15       
Strategy posts back to top....
(one of my few on topic threads, lol)
Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 08-22-99 09:29 AM ET (US)     13 / 15       
right on topic Gannon and a good thread too!
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 08-22-99 12:12 PM ET (US)     14 / 15       
Balanced in ROR means that you are indifferent as to whether you draw Palmy in random civ games or not. As it is Palmy is in the lower tier of civs and most players aren't happy to get them on random civs. Methos wrote a VERY well thought article on Balancing at GX and his suggestion that Palmy vils cost be reduced to 70 would certainly make them much closer to average. My suggestions are different although not necessarily better than Methos' simple suggestion. (IMO reducing Palmy vil cost to 65 would make them clearly better than average as their bronze rush would be awesome while they still expand easily)

My suggestions keep them absolutely the same but give them a clearly stronger Iron age. As it stands now, they have to survive the tool age to get a good bronze and early iron and then fade away as superior military civs get their better super units.

1) Palmy gets ALL the iron age market tech upgrade. Now these expensive vils always work better than their counterparts. Thus Palmy w/craftsmanship gets that critical 1 extra range and their woodchopping effectively improves by about 11%. Their goldmining w/coinage receives a tremendous boost and their .95 gather rate with goldmining increases to 1.1875 and thus is the games best by far. The added 25% gold increase from coinage will help them considerably. Palmy now has as much gold as other civs but can really strip mine it in iron. Palmy should also get all the farm techs.

Remember that Palmy vils cost 50% more and thus they should be considerably better all thoughout the game.

2) If 1) isn't enough.. Palmy can be given engineering to beef up it's Hcats/balls. Note that I didn't say give Palmy heles. Palmy with the improved iron age workers I suggest plus full siege would clearly start becoming a better than average civ...IMO.

3) Palmy trading can also be fixed so that they actuallyget twice as much gold per trip as other civs.As it is they don't actually end up with double gold.

In all likelyhood my suggestioned full market tech improvements are sufficient to bring Palmy up to average. I can't go to far in improving Palmy or I'd create a real terror on medium resources....neilkaz...

shazari
Inactive
posted 09-01-99 06:53 PM ET (US)     15 / 15       
I love Palmy, and I've been playing almost exculsively for about two months. Here are some of my thoughts on them, much of it has probably alrady been said, but here goes:

------------------------------------------------------------
Palmyran is probably the most extensively overlooked civilization in Rise of Rome. I canít tell you how many times at the start of a game Iíve have people say things like, "PalmyranÖinteresting" or, "Palmys are weak." I just love to give these folks a lesson in this underrated civ.

Villagers
One main strength of Palmyran villagers is the rate they consume resources. They work 20% harder, so that means they gather all resources at a greater rate before any upgrades. And when they are fully upgraded, you canít believe how fast a dozen Palmy villagers mow through a dense forest. Check on them more often, since they are such hard workers, they go idle more quickly than other civs. If you keep you villagers busy, you wonít want for any resource.

Another strength of Palmyran villagers is armor. Your first explorer can survive 2 lion attacks with 1 hit point left. Thatís probably enough to find at least one enemy camp. The armor is helpful if you have to resort to using villagers as defense units.

Now the down side: Palmy villagers cost 50% more than the standard 50 food. You only get 5 villagers to start with, and itís three food trips before you can start number 6. This can lead to many very slow starts. But time is on Palmyriaís side (when youíve pop limited, all of yours are working harder, even better if you are eating your opponentís resources).


Trade and Tribute
With all those hard working villagers, why not trade surplus resources for gold? With Palmyria, gold per trade trip is doubled. Trade goes hand in hand with free tribute. You can be the designated gold gatherer for your team and share the wealth and help your allies Iron faster with extra gold. It is not uncommon to gather 10,-20,000 gold with a fully researched iron Palmyran civilization. Pair up with Phoenicians, Hittites or Assyrians and trade freely with them.


Your Unprepared Enemy
Since many people regard this civilization as weak, youíll find these many donít have any idea what youíll be attacking with. Not only will they be a little lost as to what attack units to make, but his defense is likely to be unprepared for a well orchestrated Palmyran battle. This advantage can be almost as important as luck.

Camels and Stable Units
Palmy camels have +25% speed. If you havenít found your enemy by Bronze, a few camels and youíll have no trouble finding him. And when you do, you can relieve him of some extraneous woodcutters.

Your stable also houses both Cavalry and Heavy Cavalry units. Your bronze age Chariots upgrade to Scythes in Iron. War Elephants and Armored Elephants make the Palmyran stable very strong.

Siege Workshop
The only siege weapon Palmys donít get are Helepolis. If you like Hittite, you wonít miss Heavy Catapults because Palmyria has them too. Upgrade to Catapult and Heavy Cats as soon as you can, their damage potential is undeniable.

Archers
The Palmyran Archery Range is healthy. Bronze Age Chariot Archers and Composite Bowmen are effective villager protectors and attackers. After you get the Iron Age Chain Mail upgrade, you can sweep your enemy with an attack of Heavy Horse Archers. Donít forget the pit upgrades: these puppies are deadly with flaming arrows and extended range.

Academy Units
Nothing special in Palmyriaís Academy. Bronze Hoplites and Iron Phalanx units are both handy Cat killers when protected from your enemyís archers with your own Horse Archer or Heavy Horse Archer army backing them up. These units are easily converted, so watch out for civs with good Temples.

Priests
If Palmyria had Monotheism, I think Iíd never play another civ (how I love to convert the enemyís buildings). Temples are decent in Palmyria, and though they lack Medicine, Martyrdom and the before mentioned Monotheism, you can research Conversion Effectiveness and Range and nab yourself some fine Eles that way.

Bronze Barracks
Most likely the last time youíll use the Barracks is in Bronze, since the best unit here is the Broad Swordsman. But if you have lots of food, and enough wood to make about 3 or 4 barracks, then expand to your enemyís backyard and give him a 25 Broadsword salute!

At Sea
Palmy civilizations get both Triremes and Fire Galleys, quite a lethal combination. If you have a fast Iron, you have make short work of the opponentís docks and cut off vital fishing. We have regularly taken out Minoan and Phoenician navies with Palmyria. Remember, since you gather so much wood, you can make lots and lots of boats.

Towers and Walls
I love Ballista towers and Palmyís got them. If you find resource gathering villagers under attack by Archery units, they guys build fast too. Make your tower quickly with 5 men. You might lose 1 or 2, but then you have tower in trade, so itís worth it.

I almost always wall. I usually research walls before towers in Tool, and block off choke points. Since Palmyria has a somewhat slow start, the extra time walls afford you can mean the difference of life and death with an attempted Tool rush or early Bronze rush. If I set 1 man on stone in the Stone Age after all the resources start coming in nicely, I usually have enough stone for a tower and the defensive walls to start.

Weaknesses
Like all Rise of Rome civilizations, Palmyran has some weaknesses to keep the civs balanced against each other. The primary weakness is villager price, but if you survive a Tool rush, your villagers are more valuable as covered under the Units section above. You are probably weakest in Tool as a Palmyran.

Without Metallurgy, your hand-to-hand units will not get the +3 attack enhancement this upgrade offers. If you keep defenses and attacks well diversified, this disadvantage should not matter too much. Since Palmyria also lacks Engineering, your Siege weapons cannot benefit from the +2 range it offers. And without Aristocracy, your Academy units canít get the 25% speed bonus.

No Coinage for Palmyria. Thatís OK, since you already have free tribute from day one, and the double gold per trade trip bonus offsets the loss of a 25% gold mine activity upgrade.

Conclusion
Palmyran is a strong civilization. Hardworking villagers make booming the logical strategy if the map allows and feel like you have 20% more villagers than you do. Good resources in the bank mean an healthy economy that can expand all over the map. If you can survive until Iron, your Palmyran Civilization can cover the map.

------------------------------------------------------------

you can email comments to me at hell_okitty@yahoo.com

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