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Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Tool rushing, how come I suck?
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Topic Subject:Tool rushing, how come I suck?
Sack
Inactive
posted 06-18-99 03:03 AM ET (US)         
It seems like everytime I make an attempt to tool rush, the enemy get's his villagers away and bronzes pretty quickly after that. I try coming in from all directions and I still get canned several minutes later when his 1000's of chariot archers are in my tool age town. How come his villas are smarter than my clubbers and archers? Please help me. Thanks all.
AuthorReplies:
APC_Doink
Inactive
posted 06-18-99 08:41 AM ET (US)     1 / 5       
I would say you are not attacking soon enough. The guy may have already clicked to advance. If he flees, try to take down his town center quickly. If you kill it while he is advancing, he stays in tool and loses the 800F needed to upgrade.
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-18-99 09:53 AM ET (US)     2 / 5       
APC_Doink wrote:

If you kill it while he is advancing, he stays in tool and loses the 800F needed to upgrade.
Actually, it you don't forget about it, you can cancel the upgrade if the TC is going to go down before the age is completed and get back your investment of material, but not time. (Had to do this umpteen times in the last few games. Twice when Bearded_Tim overran me. I had to stop the Iron at 93%, and later my Scythe at 85%. Not to say that cost us the game, but it put a significant cramp in it.

BTW, is there a way of knowing that a particular building is the one doing the upgrade, or did Bearded_Tim's Minoan compies have the "luck of the Irish"? As I was running, I was silently pleading "Not that one! Attack the other stables.. Please.. Just let that one live another 15 seconds.. Please... Darnitanyway!" Good game, Tim. I'll get you next time!

(BTW, both Red_Karen and I have some great shots of this game. Check out my new thread for details (As of right now, I don't have screen shots inserted, so its just a bunch of text.)

Keep your stick on the ice.

APC_Doink
Inactive
posted 06-18-99 10:36 AM ET (US)     3 / 5       
Wow, that's the first time anyone has ever quoted me. I don't think there is a way to tell if there is an upgrade taking place in a particular building.
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 06-19-99 12:56 PM ET (US)     4 / 5       
I know that not everyone agrees with me but in 3v3's the focus of any tool age land attacking I do is practically 100% directed at killing, harrasing, and disrupting an enemy's villagers. Killing them is the number 1 priority.
Until the enemy has made it to bronze and built a GC and additional TC's he cannot replace more than 1 dead villager every 20 sec since he only has 1 TC. Assuming he is in the process of bronzing he can't replace any vils until he has completed bronzing.

THIS DISCUSSION SHOWS HOW PAINFUL EVEN A SMALL LOSS IN VILS CAN BE

Let's say I made 3 bowmen during my bronze transition near an opponents workers. I am a civ that will use archery units a lot so I will clearly need the 100 food I spend on archer armor anyhow..so I don't think I need to count that expenditure as a waste. 3 Bowmen (180 res) hit his workers but he saw me coming and 3 slingers soon arrive and kill my bowmen. However, 3 bowmen can kill 1 vil every 4.2 sec and by concentrating on the vils I killed 3 of them only before my bowmen died of rock inflicted wounds... OK I lost 180 resources and he lost 150 resources.. this doesn't sound like a fair trade but consider that if I killed his 3 workers 1 minute before he's completed bronzing it will be even longer before their replacements get back to work.

Let's analyse (assuming he had the wood chopping upgrade so his (non Phoe) woodies are effectively gathering 0.5 wood per sec. Also assume 5 sec to walk newborns to the wood.

Thus dead vil 1's replacement won't be chopping until 85 sec after dead vil 1's death.. similarily 2 and 3's replacements don't get working for 105 and 125 sec respectively after there counterpart's deaths.

OMG.. the loss of 3 villagers to my little tool age "resource equalisation" cost him 315 sec of villager production !! Thus he lost over 150 wood that he would have gathered had they not died. For an expenditure of 180 resources I have cost my victim over 300 resources since he also lost 150 food worth of vils.

There are other ways to look at this, too. We both bronze at the same time but I had 3 more vils alive for 60 sec each and thus once bronzed I am 90 wood ahead of him and will have 3 more workers for the ENTIRE game gathering (assuming we each now start pumping new vils from our bronzed TC) This results in a nice continuing economic advantage and MORE than justifies the lost gathering time of having my 2 dock builders build on the enemy. Future battles will be fought near his vils while mine will hopefully work safely at home.

I neglected to mention that he spent 150 res on slingers which are a not total waste now.. but will die quickly when a cav camel or chariot shows up with my archers later. I also neglected to mention that my bowmen may have wounded and disrupted a couple other woodies. Vils don't like to gather resources while taking arrows in their backs.

My opponent may panic from the small attack. He doesn't know if more bowmen will come or if I will send clubbers in. He might make a bunch of slingers or axers and find out that they all die 4 minutes later to strong bronze units.

I hope this preceeding little discussion is enough to convince you to go after a victim's vils when you tool attack him. Often you kill MANY more than just 3 of his vils.

I just LOVE it when the tool rusher let's me escape with 5 or 10 more vils than he could have killed because he is after my TC or houses. .. Assuming I have competent allies and he has launched the all out tool rush necessary to kill my TC.. I simply have stopped bronzing, saved my 800 food, and rebuilt a new TC somewhere. Now a bronzed ally comes in with 4 cav and slaughters 15 axers.. either before or after he trashed the tool rushers likely still tool age vils. Conversely, if you are 100% sure the victim has escaped and you can't get at him (he ran across shallows and is behind an allies walls) then you take his buildings down.

... kill vils... neilkaz...

[This message has been edited by neilkaz (edited 06-24-99).]

Bearded_Tim
Inactive
posted 06-19-99 03:19 PM ET (US)     5 / 5       

Thor:

I guess I must've eaten my "Lucky Charms" that morning, because even if there is a way to know which buildings are upgrading I didn't know about nor even think about it when I was tearing your town down. At that point I wasn't looking for villagers (unless I found some) but was rather focussed on taking every building out, so I probably just went from one to the next, ballistas on one, cats on the next, compies looking for another. Sorry bout stalling your iron and schythes, but I think that won it for us, since it stalled your schythes from getting to Scarab and then to me. Whew.


As far as tool rushing goes (have to tie this into the original topic somehow), I can think of 2 things you might try to do to help out from what you said. 1) You said that even when you come from both sides they still get their villies away, well be sure to make some Scouts to assist your tool rush. The Scouts can follow the running villies and never lose them, while your axers/bowmen/slingers come stolling behind. Not to mention that the scouts might be able to see a berry/woodie/goldie pocket your others missed. 2) You said that later "1000's of CAs" flooded your town, well I would build some walls, especially if your tool rushing. If you're really going on a heavy tool rush and delaying your bronze, get those walls up, whether to defend from the tool rush victim, or his/her teammates. Walls can work wonders for stopping attacks (if they just sent cavs/camels/CAs/etc.), or at least alerting you ahead of time when they have STs or hoppers.

While I'm not very good at either tool rushing or walling, I do know the value of each. A tool rush without walls leave your town vulnerable to a counter attack from other enemies. And getting up walls without a tool rush (or some tool attack/bronze rush) might delay their bronze attack on your town but does nothing to their economy, which allows them to get through the walls without much worry anyhow. I try to do some of both (maybe more one than the other depending on the situation). Before I've had armies run right into my town too many times with no resistance because I didn't bother will walls (what, waste time mining stone and then building walls?). At the same time, there have been many games where I've been protected alright, but didn't rush them and they boomed and then attacked relentlessly.

- Bearded_Tim

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