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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Choke! Gasp! Argh! Halp!!
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Topic Subject:Choke! Gasp! Argh! Halp!!
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-09-99 11:56 PM ET (US)         
After a number of tries tonight, I got into a game that I was really looking forward to -- Jaheed, Sarmis_Dionysos and I vs. King_Highlander, Neilkaz and Tiger_Lily.

Even the random civ gods complied -- both Jaheed and I were Yamato, Sarmis was Sumi, King was Greek, Neil was Choson (I think), TL was Yammie. Last time I got to play with Neil, I got taken for a ride by the random map gods, and was looking forward to showing him what I could do.

Some quick exploration, and my speedy villager escapes two lions, only to be trapped between two others. My other villager finds my hill berries, but the closest I can granary is 5 tiles... OK, its continental, look for some shore fish. The closest I found was two within 12 tiles of each other. OK, there's wood near one, so I'll do it, and try for boats. There were only 3 ocean fish within any reasonable distance.

By eating lions, walking with shore fish, and fishing from the Dead Sea, I managed to click on Bronze at 12:40 or so. At 13:30, king's axemen are chasing me hither and yon, but I am hopeful for pulling something out when I hit Bronze. At 14:15, his first cav appears on the scene. Jaheed is doing some damage but not enough to take away the hurt.

I finally Bronze with a 15:00/37, even counting the awful casualties, awfully poor for Yammie, but I am still hopeful. Well, until King builds academy and seige within spitting distance of my original TC. I pop up another TC in a spot I had scoped out earlier. Darnit, Neil's cav weren't there before! I decide to run to Jaheed's camp, and he welcomes me, but as the last of my villagers flee from all the King's men, I run headlong into Neils cav. I can hear fat ladies from miles around warming up, and soon, King's galleys took the last of my scout ships, and I was forced to admit defeat, having only a few buildings (no tcs or docks) and fishing boats left, i.e., no military, villagers and no way of getting any.

This was a big disappointment for me. I had really looked forward to playing some of the bigger fish, especially after looking like a total newbie the last time I played Neil.

Obviously, this would have been much better if I had walled off, but I didn't. Mistake #1. And if I hadn't accidentally led King's blind hoppers into my foragers. Mistake #2.

I know that I was outplayed. I probably couldn't have hacked the force that showed up if I got a decent start, with the walling skills I displayed.

Question: When you are confronted with a start where you have lone shorefish, and horrible hillberries, what do you do? Do you push out the exploration in hopes of coming up with a better spot (which there were scads of, I found after the fact) or what? There were 2 elephants I could have led to my TC, but no gazelle. Granarieable berries, it turned out, were only about 8 tiles past the end of the hill berries, but I had not scouted far enough. I already was facing gaps in villager production, should I just have bit the bullet and gone for a better spot, or made do? Which is what I did. Guess that would be the wrong answer, then, wouldn't it?

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 06-10-99).]

AuthorReplies:
Cherub Lobby
Clubman
posted 06-10-99 00:23 AM ET (US)     1 / 10       
Thorfinn,

When you get a start like that against good players you are almost doomed !

The Random map layout usually means that if you get a bad position the other player/s are in good position so the pain is doubled.

You can wall up but that just delays the inevitable and put you in a siege/defensive mentality. There economy will keep bubbling along and sts will arrive to take out your puny walls anyway.

The only time I have ever got out of a situation like that (and its rare to escape) is to concentrate on just one tactic. Just go all out sea or all out compies or whatever you civ specialises in ! Trannie vills around and try to relocate.

Mainly just kiss your @$$ goodbye. Also have another game quick the Random map gods even it up in the next game…. Not !

Radagastt
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 00:24 AM ET (US)     2 / 10       
Ah sheesh, Sarmis_I_Forgot..I have no respect...

Well, I got sume, and I was thinking about a little villie rush, so I sent a scout way across the map, and found neil. I had a realatively crappy start, so I decided I would send in the slingers, and I built 4 barracks up by neil. Of course, I had an atrocious tool time, 13 minutes with 22 villagers, and I cranked out about 15 slingers and sent them at neil. As soon as I found his wood/gold,, he hits bronze- with only one villie on gold. I kill that ville and about 8 others, and send my little army looking for my target, when that dratted King_Highlander gives neil some gold...out come the cavalry I retired to my base, and rebuilt my econ to about 34 villagers, ran off to jaheeds base, and started treing to feed him. Thorfinn than resigns, and I am stuck in tool with 30 villagers 40 minutes into a game... without a doubt my worst game in over a month.

After that, I get into a 2vs2 with APC_Disciple, Bearded_Tim, and some random zoner. Of course, I took minoa, and then my teammate took phoe. Bearded_Tim takes random,a dn then the game launches before I see what Disciple took, Of course, he took random, according to tim, and he got shang. 10 minuts into the game, I have 40 villagers, the APC'ers have 31 each, and my partner has 15. I finally bronze and get some villies on gold, pump out 5 scout ships, and then a upgraded shang tool army comes right at my wood/gold spot, when I have about 55 wood left, and 30 gold- a lot of good my 2 stables were I jsut resigned at that point.
Radagastt
Sarmis_Dionysos

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-10-99 08:38 AM ET (US)     3 / 10       
I know it wasn't clear from my post, but what I was disappointed in mostly is that I thought I was better at salvaging a poor start than that. Gotta hand it to King, he forward builds like a madman, and once that pit bull had me by the throat, "Stick a fork in me, Jerry. I'm done."

Keep your stick on the ice.

Tiger Lily
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 10:13 AM ET (US)     4 / 10       
Well for me,I was soo happy! That was the first game I had a hand in winning!Although Neil and king did most of the active destroying, I did feed them what ever they needed. I got so used to Neil's "more st pls" that I just started tribbing him every min or so. I actually made it to iron! was so happy I decided to go pick on Jaheed who by that time was the only one left, and he was (i thought) still attacking king and neil. Since I knew thru communication that he had compies I built five barracks and started q'ingup slingers like mad and sending them to his town for a little house burning. My hope was that while fighting neil & king he would take losses and be unable to rebuild his forces. I kept hearing that battle noise while destroying his town and looking for villies, but his town seemed strangley deserted of military. I left my slingers and ST's and went to check on my villes. Dear god, that's where jaheed was! HE had 8 compies strolling around killing villes leftand right and prob wondering why the heck I wasn't trying to run away! I'm sure he was hearing the same battle sounds I was thinking it was all his battle. well I had kept up my slinger q-ing, and so I walked up my 25 slingers and dropped his compies like flys (man I love upgraded slinger hordes in Iron!) lost a few in his town by walking too close to his docks, but kept chasing his villies around, destroying his TC and houses, while king and neil kept up a frontal attack(love that writing upgrade, too!) Jaheed just couldnt manage all three of us.
I had tons of food but almost no wood for god knows how long. Boy I was soo happy that I helped win a game, I danced all over the house!!!! That was soo fun you guys, and thanx for letting me play!!!
TL

------------------
O quam te memorem, virgo?
O dea certe.
{By what name should I call thee, maiden? O goddess, surely.}

FWH_Wolfpack
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 11:00 AM ET (US)     5 / 10       
Ok, IMO, you should have just taken the hill berries. You didn't say how your stragglers were, but if you ahd at least 3, definately go with the granery. In games where the opposition is good, I think the gap in vill production that often results from looking for that super sweet spot does not pay off as often as if one had taken the more conventional route and taken the berries. The less the gap you have the better, which is why I suggest the berries. As for the eles, they could have been lured to the TC or nearby pit for a great second food source. Of course, you could use your vill speed and use 2-3 vills to run in, harass and maybe kill a peon or two and run away before boned to death and keep doing it too.
Jaheed
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 12:42 PM ET (US)     6 / 10       
Thorfinn, being double teamed by two players like Highlander and Neilkaz sure hurts a lot even with an amazing start! If you have a bad one...

I agree with Wolfpack, I'd have gone for berries and maybe started exploring for second source earlier. Well, at least you were Yamato and they should climb those hills faster...

Lily, you'll be most delighted when you know you did the last blow. Destroying my houses you denied me building some cavs to take care of your pesting slingers when I finally could gather some gold... :-b

------------------
May your weapons be sharp and your ping be green

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-10-99 02:20 PM ET (US)     7 / 10       
Trees were very good. Only one strag, but a forest 6 tiles away. Thanks for the answer. I usually don't mind hill berries, (I am not convinced you net a big difference if you can walk straight up/down the hill) but was a little concerned because of the 4 extra tiles of walking. Course, Yam would cover that faster.

And for the record, I wasn't actually double-teamed. If I had not been chased out of my gold mine in the mid 13s, I'd have had enough gold for Writing, and not run smack dab into the middle of some of Neils horsies who were picking on Sarmis. It pretty much just gave the horsies a little variety in their carnage.

Keep your stick on the ice.

fangr
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 03:05 PM ET (US)     8 / 10       
I think more important than the bad spot is the lack of forward building on your part... (at least you never mentioned forward building) As long as King and Neil have nothing to worry about at home they can focus most of their effort on killing your vills... You'd be surprised how effective even a couple of tool age archers (when everyone is in bronze) can be at diverting a cav or 2. In the Hell Country game I played with borgboy and matty I killed several cavs/camels with a horde of tool bow... And mysteriously that mass of bow cleaned out Scrith's town and Scrith's cavs and camels disappeared from picking on the 3 of us.

Anyways, I often forget to forward build when I have a bad spot too... I try to overcompensate for the spot by forward exploring/building later. I usually end up getting killed when I do too.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-10-99 03:20 PM ET (US)     9 / 10       
Yeah, I didn't forward build at all. I always neglect that when I'm trying to salvage a poor start. Maybe that should be the keynote of salvaging a bad spot.

Another thing is that I am convinced that King was trailing my villies with a scout, just outside my vision range, as I would occasionally catch a glimpse on the minimap from my radar housing as I was fleeing, and his cav seemed to be able to pretty much make a beeline to my villagers. There's another fine tactic I have got to learn to use.

BTW, I have another question -- I had a couple spots picked out for Bronze TCs. From a position of strength, the choice is obvious. But how about when you get chased out of your town? Those sweet spots are exactly where they expect you to build, and of course, they have found them, too. If you are forced to abandon ship, are you better off foregoing the best spots for some of the also-rans, where at least they will have to track you down?

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 06-11-99).]

disciplejim
Clubman
posted 06-19-99 02:47 PM ET (US)     10 / 10       
Since all too often I find myself looking for a new home, Thorfinn's follow-up question piqued my interest. Unfortunately, no replies . . .
I usually end up "acting as rearguard" for one of my patient allies, but this can create an additional hardship for said patient saint in having to share an increasingly scarce set of resources. With no appreciable military to ease the way, what's a pilgrim to do? I am guessing I should be spreading out sonner to establish multiple production centers before the need for a refuge is made painfully obvious. If you agree, how do you go about staking out and defending additional territory in the early game? Other comments? How about a little strategy talk on this forum?
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