You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.15 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » The Yamato are Back!
Bottom
Topic Subject:The Yamato are Back!
Destroyer_B
Clubman
posted 06-08-99 07:18 PM ET (US)         
The last few games that i've played,all my losses have been through yammie players. I think the reason was, i boomed they bronze rushed. Mostly the scenarios have been, medit,3vs3,default res,me at 3 or 9(border),me as phoe.When i get to bronze,everything goes done the toilet.My fleets of fishing boats get blasted to smithereens,my huge economy get hunted down,town by town and my entire little landmass(which is seperated by water)is surrounded by warships not allowing me even to send 1 vill to my allies land.

I think the main reasons the yamato are back are..

1)People arnt really expecting the yammies, and underestimating them when they are chosen by other players

2)People laugh at the idea of being cav rushed ever since the appearance of that funcky looking camel

3)They think they have been severly weakened by ror

4)People dont really employ the tatics of not getting cav rushed anymore.Just like when aoe was first released,after people learned to spread out, tool rushing vanished,then people got lazy,didn't spread out,tool rushing returned.

5)All the civs that do get camels arnt fast enough to get to bronze and train them,Shang can and maybe mionan,all civs which survive a early cav rush and pump them out then face an big and upgraded yammy cav army.

6)Instead of attacking in bronze,yammy players can play defensive till iron,upgrade to heavy cav and make that camel obsolete.

I think these are the main reason,this is only a opinion,but i do truly believe that their will be an increase of yammy players in the zone soon.

------------------
Prepare for the Destruction...

AuthorReplies:
Steve Ryan
Inactive
posted 06-08-99 09:03 PM ET (US)     1 / 15       
Yammy can be a very good civ still,

1v1 I would argue that only Shang and Assy can take them out.

Against Shang Yammy really has no chance. The bronze Cav rush is completely thwarted by Shang camels and Shang walls. Those walls just make those cavs stand around waiting to be pincusioned by CAs.

In the hands of a good player, Assy bowmen then CAs will dent any bronze Yammy !

You are right though Yammy is underused now and underated and usually a surprise to newer (and even some more experienced) players. Their high hp ships rock and scout rushes turning to into cav rushes can be devastating to an unprotected economy.

One secret of Yammy that is underused is the composite bowmen. You would be amazed at the surprise a shang player with his ten camels and 20 CAs gets when he bumps into 15 armoured Yam compies with 10 cheap Cavs. (try it on the editor and see what wins) The other unheralded Yam item is the Cheap HA once you hit iron !

Walls are Yammies greatest enemy and Shang have the toughest !

Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 06-08-99 11:37 PM ET (US)     2 / 15       
Yamato rocks when u can bronze in 12 minutes. I made an ID yamat0_ and took it to 1700 in 7 games by only taking yamato. Cavalry at 15 minutes is yucky but a constant cavalry support from 2 stables started at 12 or 13 minutes is really awesome!

About wallin:
People seem to overestimate their walling hability I personnaly never seem to be able to say that im safely walled from any attack before later in the game at which point its usually pointless since some st could bring the walls down! Relying only on your hability to wall can smell disaster coz its time consuming and sometime u actually run out of stone... Mine more stone? Well u might need another pit which will need wood, which will then have to be mined, which will then need to be converted into walls: Often by then the cavs might be within your walls and a bunch of peons will die coz they had a stone pit for defense!

Assy vs Yamato?
If assy can wall then yes it smells problem for yammy but that's why u gotta have your stable in the opponents town and also have a scout breaking down walls while bronzing. Waiting for the wheel can be long and sometime its all it takes for cavalry to rip apart a ton of unwalled woodies. And then CA vs cavalry? Humm not that great in small numbers... In fact I prefer to be yammy coz cavs own CA in small fights. When i play assy nowadays i sometime go camels instead and i think its probably the best choice vs yamato!

Shang vs Yammy?
Well yammy can bone the foward builders and yammy's foward builder can flee from shang. Thats basicly the only advantage yammy has coz of the damm ugly camels! Why the heck did shang need camels too? Probably best to scout rush for yammy damm ugly camels... I say give shang choson's tech tree since their so damm fast at least shang will have a bad military; now they got a huge unstoppable economy coz they got almost all the damm units in the game (until iron).

[This message has been edited by Sebsoft (edited 06-08-99).]

indiadude
Clubman
posted 06-09-99 09:08 AM ET (US)     3 / 15       
First up i'll confess that i'm a complete newbie so i wont try to go too deep into theories about why Yam is making a comeback but since this is a civ close to my heart i thought i'd put my $.02 in

For a newbie i think that the biggest adv yam has is the faster vills given that as a newbie tend to forget things like pitting regularly thier faster speed means that it does'nt hurt too bad if say, my vills are walking 5 tiles to my TC

The next biggest adv. that Yam has is thier cheap cav, sure they might get rolled over in RoR but a even a light cav army in AoE (say 15 ) can hurt bad even if you bronze in the mid-30's (don't laugh - i've been there too)

Finally since many games can stay a while in bronze a Yam army is fairly cheap to build given that as a newbie ur often running on a shoestring.I won't try to embarrass myself any further by talking to about RoR but i hope this helps in trying to understand why a newbie should play Yam

------------------
ICQ No:23651419
Dude,Yamato Rocks!

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 06-09-99 10:44 AM ET (US)     4 / 15       
Yam and Assy are both a bit underrated by many ROR players. True they aren't in the same league as Shang, Phoe, Mino or Hitt IMO.. but they are close behind and can still put a quick hurting on some one... neilkaz..
joecho
Clubman
posted 06-09-99 11:33 AM ET (US)     5 / 15       
Here's what I do: cav rush, follow up with hoppers for camels, and ST's for CA's. I guess a compie follow up is nice, too, as mentioned below. Never tried that. Although IMHrookieO, I think compies are kinda overrated... you know.. ST. Except for Min compies, of course. I would still take Egy or Hit anyday, but still.

-joecho

SW_Enos
Inactive
posted 06-09-99 01:46 PM ET (US)     6 / 15       
Yup, at least at the intermediate level. Last night I was in Quirinal for a quick game and my two partners picked Yamato and Assyrian. I said "Yam and Assy? This is going to be ugly" when asked by one of my partners why it would be ugly I said "I'll tell you in about 20 minutes." (The time I expected both of them to drop because their scores would be doubled).

I picked Hittite, the opponnents were Hittite, Roman, and Minoan. (on Giga Conti, default, no reveal). It was set teams and I expected big booms out of the minoan and hittite and a quick tool followed by an assisted iron for the Roman.

My assy partner tool rushed (small) the roman (which I thought would be suicide with cheap towers and slingers), but he just kept pushing his bowmen on toward the minoan after the initial attack (I'm guessing anyway, he had 5-6 bowmen in the minoan's old TC by the time they all resigned). I think the Yam guy just did a quick bronze and got in on the Minoan's gold operation. The minoan did get compies out but it looked like he drew them off with an attack on the re-located roman's economy then came in to hit the minoan's economy.

I neutralized the Hittite (he was actually the first player to drop), but I think that even if they had let him boom straight to iron they would have won the game with a totally worthless ally in place of me.

Keep in mind I would consider this intermediate level play--I'm not sure what's going on at the top end of the ability level with these "old school" civs.

On the GX forum somewhere is a post on how assy bowmen can do a surprising amount of damage to slingers--more than you'd think. I can't find it right now but it was fairly surprising.

I haven't been in a game that was drawn out with these civs, seems that the lack of seige for Yam could make life tough for you in Iron but maybe the new strat depends on the game finishing b4 then . . .

------------------

--SW_Enos (aka banana_fish90)

[This message has been edited by SW_Enos (edited 06-09-99).]

DaRq_SoLo
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 07:35 AM ET (US)     7 / 15       
In RoR, Yamatos are forced to use combos in armies because of the new camel unit. Camels aren't good vs comps because of the HP and poor attack, pathetic vs hoplites. So, cavs mixed with hoplites and comps make them really hard to counter with camels.

Now you can't push the cav bronze rush so easy, but a well made yamato army is really hard to stop with camels.

If you see camels, just go back with your cavs and let your comps and/or hops kill them. Also, your cavs can do a more important tasks like kill villagers or siege to protect academy/archery units.

Also, vs civs like minoans, yamato have big advantages bcoz of the cheap cavs. I did some tests and 6 cavs + 10 comps with tool upgrades beat 20 minoan comps fully upgraded (+2 range and +4 armor) and 10 of your units still get alive to continue the advance to the enemy town.

Is really weird to see a Minoan player mixing comps with stable units unless they are fighting vs strong cat civs. But, if you are fighting vs a minoan with comps vs comps, adding 2 or 3 cavs to your comp army really change the results.

Space_Viking
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 11:44 AM ET (US)     8 / 15       
In hill country Yam rocks. In most hill maps walling is a major operation so many players don't bother. Remember the WHOLE wall has to be up before the FIRST scout gets there. IF a Yam player goes full on tool rush and builds seven upgraded scouts and you are not walled you are dead or, at the very least your economy is severly disrupted as you must run.

Even if you wall your economy is disrupted because walling is such a major effort. Think about it, you have to wall a spot enclosing wood, gold and space for farms (cause food on hill maps so limited). Thats a big space.

Lately what I have done is scout rush with seven fully upgraded scouts. (sometimes using Mace he he no-one expects this). I kill one person and half of another. My enemies are running and can't get away from my scouts. Nasty words are being said by those fleeing. In the meantime my peons are gathering food etc. When my allies bronze I trib THEM and I do NOT bronze. I can usually trib about 800 resources which = 7 more Bronze units on the map on our side. Resignations follow.

If you rush me with archers or slingers I run faster than your army and get away. If you have one scout I club him after I have run a little ways to get separation from main army then go hide.

In sum, Scout rushing and thus Yam rocks on Hill maps.

Space Viking

WarLust
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 03:01 PM ET (US)     9 / 15       
I wouldn't say they are back. Actually they have always been there, within the top 5 I would say, especially on water maps where they can utilize their ship bonus. I personally was a huge yam player back in AoE, and I still love to play them whenever I get a chance (I mostly play random civs).

A lot of people underestimate a good yam cav rush. It can still be potent. I play a lot of hill country now (most experts do now since cont and med maps are getting old and boring) and one of the best civs to have is yam. Scout rushes reign supreme on this map. Why? Vision and quickness. Hill country maps are larger, landwise, than any other map of the same size category, i.e., gig hill country is larger than a gig cont, med, etc. This is where quickness and vision are needed. Hill country calls for a lot of walling, but often times there is too much to wall, leaving someone vulnerable to a scout rush.

I think one of the best tool rushes is the scout/slinger rush. What better civ, except for maybe Shang, would be able to pull this off, efficiently as Yam. Upgraded cheap scouts, followed by slingers for support against tool archers, then bronze cav. However, about mid-bronze, it's best to switch to comps, for the fear of camels. Comps eat camels up terribly. Comps are the premier archer unit IMO. They have no penalties in bronze, except against siege. They kill CA, camels, cav, and infantry with relative ease. In early Iron, go HA.

Problems arise for Yam when scythes start to roll out. My best strategy in this case is to go full upgraded heavy cav, with HA support. But, really, a Yam player should have won in Bronze to prevent the arrival of scythes.

They are still quite useful, and still pose a threat, but they have been somewhat degraded in RoR.

-WarLust

cool_kelt
Inactive
posted 06-11-99 08:47 AM ET (US)     10 / 15       
About the camels...

However hard a unit may be, if it is ganged up on by a number of inferior, but numerically superior units, he will almost always used.

I recently played the comp on hard, random map. I was Yamato and he was someone who can have camels. I went for a bronze rush as I always do. I bronzed at abot 14. When I got to his town, yes, he did have a camels, but I had so many cavalry, they just overpowered them by getting 2 - 3 to one camel.

Thats the whole idea with Yamato, loads of cavalry. They are 25% less, and with all the upgrades you cant go wrong as far as rushing goes.

REMEMBER...
Your opponent cannot build camels as fast as you can build cavalry

Thats all folks, hope its helped.

P.S How long after bronze do people usually go for a bronze cavalry rush. I do about 22mins (8 mins after bronze)

------------------
-----------------

AnD thEy sHaLL KnoW No feAr !

cool_kelt
Inactive
posted 06-11-99 08:48 AM ET (US)     11 / 15       
About the camels...

However hard a unit may be, if it is ganged up on by a number of inferior, but numerically superior units, he will almost always lose.
I recently played the comp on hard, random map. I was Yamato and he was someone who can have camels. I went for a bronze rush as I always do. I bronzed at abot 14. When I got to his town, yes, he did have a camels, but I had so many cavalry, they just overpowered them by getting 2 - 3 to one camel.

Thats the whole idea with Yamato, loads of cavalry. They are 25% less, and with all the upgrades you cant go wrong as far as rushing goes.

REMEMBER...
Your opponent cannot build camels as fast as you can build cavalry

Thats all folks, hope its helped.

P.S How long after bronze do people usually go for a bronze cavalry rush. I do about 22mins (8 mins after bronze)

------------------
-----------------

AnD thEy sHaLL KnoW No feAr !

orangepanther
Clubman
posted 06-11-99 01:28 PM ET (US)     12 / 15       
22 min in the game you rushing with cav??? I should say that by that time there is archer armyes all over the playes, which will kill your cav in no time. I do rush right after i bronze 13-14 or 15 if booming.Just keep on sending them and build some compies if playing yamato.

------------------
STOP. LEARN. ADJUST. STRIKE.


Jehu
Inactive
posted 06-11-99 05:06 PM ET (US)     13 / 15       
I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I am being redundant.

IMHO a good way to play Yam is employ a classic Tool Push (only with more villager than AoE days). If the scouts can win it let them but most likely you want to follow two scouts with two to 4 cavs in th emid teens. If the cavs can win it let them, but at the first sight of camels start training compies. In fact I would be researching IB, then compies as my first cavs are running into the enemy's town in anticpation of camels. The camels will die miserably to the compies and your cavs can guard the compies from STs.

I kind of miss the old days when Assy, Yam, and Shang used to dual it out on ALMOST equal footing in AoE. It got old after a while but it was a lot of fun switch back and forth between the civs, knowing how to win with each and how to beat each one.

BenAtLarge
Inactive
posted 06-11-99 10:03 PM ET (US)     14 / 15       
Cool_Kelt:

You said something about training cavalry quicker than camels...nope. Camels train quite a bit faster than cavalry (30 secs to 40 secs) and although they're more expensive than yam cavs they can obviously kill cavs very efficiently.

10 yam cavs vs. 8 assy camels...then ur hopper follow up gets sliced down when i get my wheel and CAs. ;-) At least, that's the way i figure it to work...haven't tried tho.

Destroyer_B
Clubman
posted 06-14-99 10:16 PM ET (US)     15 / 15       
Have i Encouraged any of you to play yammie again?

------------------
Prepare for the Destruction...

You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames