You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.20 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Slingers In Bronze!
Bottom
Topic Subject:Slingers In Bronze!
Steve Ryan
Inactive
posted 06-07-99 01:15 AM ET (US)         
Slingers in Bronze

I recently played a game with Lucifer. It was a select your enemy game.

I gave him Carthage and he gave me Persia. Why he would do this I cant say.. cause Persia would kick Carth arse in any 1v1. I think his reasons may have been.. give the poor sucker a break or this will be a good challenge.. or maybe he just doesn’t like Persia.

Any way the result was what you may have expected but there was one unexpected twist !

Carth has no range units.. of any note and Persia has compies (albiet with a range of only 8). So I churned out compies which massacred any stable units that came nearby.

Lucifer then switched to an interesting ploy. My next attack wave of 20 compies and 2-3 camels met an upgraded force of 25 Slingers. Those compies went down like flies. I next tried with even more and included ST’s and that attack failed too.

It was frustrating that I couldn’t generate enough units to break through those slingers.. I thought they were supposed to be weak… Like anything on mass they are still useful in bronze if against mainly ranged units. Mind you they took the camels out pretty quick as well.

I wasn’t Until I had Phants that Lucifer was forced to resign. But he held out for 40-50 minutes with Carth against Persia and slingers were his mainstay force !

Now I’m not a good player of Persia. To most of you that might be obvious so there may have been a better way. I am just saying that for non-range civs like Carth Greek etc the humble slinger is a surprisingly good defensive alternative.

AuthorReplies:
Josh the Great
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 02:56 AM ET (US)     1 / 20       
I had the same trouble with Slingers once. The whole thing actually started in the game before. I was playing a game with a mate of mine who is a bit of a beginner and was annoyed at me for running him over whilst he had nothing . I apologised and we started the game again. For some strange reason, he got a mind-numbing tool speed and slinger rushed me (at some stage he bronzed in there too). I packed up and ran away several times until I ran right away and spent everything on cavalry to mess all his slingers up. It appears that slingers are handy in bronze for offense as well as defense. I had an army of 20 or so cavalry against an army of a good 30 fully-upgraded slingers. The slingers nearly won. It was close indeed!

Slingers Forever!!!

-Josh

Scarab
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 10:06 AM ET (US)     2 / 20       
Use stable (Cav's are a good idea) unit's against slingers. They carve them up like a holiday roast. Also, you could have tried sending some hoplites with the mix of compies and st's.
kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 06-07-99 10:37 AM ET (US)     3 / 20       
The problem with compies is, they get no piercing armor. Add in the slinger's bonus attack and compies are toast. Slingers do get an automatic +2 piercing armor.

I agree, use cavs - they have a bonus +5 attack vs barracks units. Add that to an initial attack of 8-12, and figure in 150 HPs, and they will reach the slingers in short order and slaughter them.

Kurtiebird
kcochran@kc.net ~ ICQ 1616884
aka APC_Kurtiebird, VVV_Kurtiebird

Official Smiley Curator. Get your smileys here!

lucifer
Inactive
posted 06-07-99 01:21 PM ET (US)     4 / 20       
Steve, It was a great game indeed. I didnt realize the carthaginians had no archery units! I tought they were an "half crappy civs" that's why I gave you the persians!
As the game started, I realized the persians had the dreaded composites archers! Doh.
You attacked me very quickly with you favourite combo, St/compies. I had no choice. I laid down 3 barracks and a stable and started to pump out upgraded slingers and camels.
I managed to repell your attacks and shut down your composites.
My camels started to cruise the map to find your woodcutting/farming operations. But they failed!
And your elephants came!
Game over!
Mass of slingers can be pretty tough to beat in early bronze I think especially when you back them up with camels! What's interesting with slingers is the fact you can produce them in tool!
As defensive unit, the main problem with slingers ist the speed! They are slow as hell. Ca's or cavs jet past slingers to slaughter your villagers with ease!
But IMhO, slingers are simply fun to use!

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 01:50 PM ET (US)     5 / 20       
I didn't think cavs got a bonus vs. slingers tho...
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 02:54 PM ET (US)     6 / 20       
Slingers can do a good job of stopping CA as was demonstrated by the aloha clan in our first game last night. I had three ranges behind enemy line and was pumping CA which killed nearly 10 of green and grey's vil each. However, they were eventually met by a nice double team mix of slingers and ordinary bowmen which stopped me cold.

Upgraded slingers have only 5 range and in early bronze CA's have 8 range and once you get artisanship that is 9 range. Your slingers need to be near you vils to protect them from CA's.

By the time someone has a few comps he should have artisanship and 9 range.. let's look at a close up battle between a bronze slinger(stone mining) and a compie.

The compie ROF is 1.4 sec while slinger ROF is 1.5 sec

Compie does 3 damage to slinger and kills it in 9 shots while slinger does 5 damage to compie and kills in in 9 shots. Compie will get 9 shots of first do to faster ROF. Also compie range means it can hit the slinger a couple of times first thus giving the slinger no chance. When I have a reasonable compie group attacking slingers I can kill a couple slingers before the rest can shoot at me do to my range. Mino comps just butcher slingers w/range.

Off course you can go the "whole hog" and spend, YUK, 330 res on bronze shield early and now it will take 13 comp arrows to kill the slinger.. and 25 !! arrows for a CA to kill it.

I just tested a range 9 comp 9 tiles away from a range 5 slinger w/bronze shield and the slinger barely beats it. Off course I can dance the comp away and butcher the slinger even then.

Another interesting test was watching 5 cav kill 22 slingers w/stone mining. I put them all in an enclosure and let then fight. The cav start just in range of the slingers.
The cav don't even need nobility to win. I also tried controlling the slinger and I still didn't win.. came close but the 5 cav killed my 22 slingers.

A few points about slingers.

1) Cav DON'T get an attack bonus vs them

2) Logistics does count for them

3) A weak 25 HP unit w/no armor and only 5 range can't stand up very well to fast, powerful melee units like cav.

4) A non upgraded slinger still does 1 damage to an upgraded slinger.. in case you are fighting a slinger rush with your own slingers.

5) I say it again.. if people would bring some kind of charge/melee unit along with their CA's they'd have a more effective combo. Use that stable a make a couple of accompanying cav/mels/or chariots to nail enemy slingers and ST, etc.

... Slingers have their place in early bronze, but as bronze wears on.. slinger's place is usually dead on the ground....from my experiences... neilkaz...

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 03:09 PM ET (US)     7 / 20       
Changing the subject a bit..I must ask whether anyone makes IB's as Carth etc...

Let's look at the analysis since the whole comp crazy world loves compies... lets say you make 10 compies including upgrade cosst you spend 1100 res total.. ie 720 food.. 180 wood 200 gold.

10 compies have 50 AP and it takes 450 HP to kill them all..they have 9 range.

Now if you are an improved bowman civ you can't spend 280 res on comp upgrade. Instead 280 res could make 4 2/3 IB's !!

14 2/3 IB cost 1100 res total ie 727 food 80 wood 293 gold

14 2/3 IB have 59 AP and it takes 587 HP to kill them all and they have 8 range.

Maybe I am nuts but I'd rather have 14 2/3 IB than 10 compies even though they have 1 less range. Off course if Mino compies I might change my mind.. but clearly I'd take 14 2/3 carth impies over 10 persian compies w/that 8 range.

I wouldn't bother with either IB/comp upgrades unless I was sure to be making definately more than 10 of them. No one would like 10 compies walking into their camp and they also wouldn't like 14 2/3 IB either..(OK spend 20 res more and make it 15 IB)

Am I on to something here ? As much as everyone LOVES comps.. their poor little brother, the imp is treated like an ugly sister....

... food for thought... neilkaz...

PS realize how many simple bowmen 1100 res can make .

PSS I need to do some testing to come up with a "figure of merit" for extra range of bowmen.

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 03:47 PM ET (US)     8 / 20       
I have fought off CA attacks with groups of imps b4 while I was waiting for compie upgrades. They are pretty effective.
Field_General
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 03:56 PM ET (US)     9 / 20       
What in the world? Carth doesn't get archers? They get imps, 750 hp elephant archers, and horse archers....

Perhaps you mean no worhwhile bronze age archerst. (That is true)

Once I ran a test in the scenario editor.....12 post-iron slingers vs. 11 post iron minoan composites....they were all walled in an enclosure, and the slingers started just in range of the compies...the slingers win. Of course, if you add even one cavlary the compies win, but hey.

Of course, I have noticed something funny in real games. In real games, my slingers stink like heck, while his slingers take out my camels.

And I always use imps if I get them....imps/st's/camels usually wind up being my main attack force.....

almost ALWAYS i am fighint off evil enemy camels with minoan imps waiting for upgrade.

kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 06-07-99 04:26 PM ET (US)     10 / 20       
I have been told by a certain someone that no one makes compies in iron, but if you do encounter a Minoan opponent, you might find they cannot resist...well, try fully upgraded slingers vs those compies:

I did a scenario test - Post Iron (everyone fully upgraded) - 40 Minoan Compies vs 40 Roman Slingers, and there were 18 slingers left standing!

The fully iron upgraded slinger (don't laugh) has a piercing armor of 5, and an attack of 6 vs bow units. Therefore, it takes the compie 25 shots to kill a slinger, and only 8 (!) shots vice versa.

Kurtiebird
kcochran@kc.net ~ ICQ 1616884
aka APC_Kurtiebird, VVV_Kurtiebird

Official Smiley Curator. Get your smileys here!

Cherub Shadow8357
Clubman
posted 06-07-99 08:05 PM ET (US)     11 / 20       
Lets not forget also that two of the slinger upgrades (stone mining and siegecraft) are also economic upgrades. If you plan on using slingers, these upgrades should be first on the list (like wood cutting upgrades for archers).

Good thought on the Imps/Compies. I think the main reason to get the non-minoan compy upgrade is if:
1) You hit the pop limit and don't think you'll lose a large number of units any time soon.
2) You are playing a very high pop game, and you have gotten so many archers that the effect of the 5 extra imps can be ignored. My guess would be that the effect is negligable when the 5 archers are only 5% of the army. That is, if you have (5/[0.05]) 100 composites/imps.

borgboy12
Clubman
posted 06-08-99 00:29 AM ET (US)     12 / 20       
If you are in a dm or a super dm and are against a archer civ and cant counter you can use slingers....cause you can mass them..although cats take them out...but, what DONT cats take out?

And for those who don't have Internet Explorer...Get it, Netscape (or whatever your using) sucks! j/k But really please get it! My new site will be IE only. You can get it here

Imperius_Jim
Inactive
posted 06-08-99 02:30 AM ET (US)     13 / 20       
Actually, a fully upgraded iron slinger has an attack of 7 vs. Archery units. 2(standard) +2(automatic vs. bowmen) +1(stone mining) +1(siegecraft) +1(alchemy) =7 vs. bowmen.
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 06-08-99 01:01 PM ET (US)     14 / 20       
Just a word of caution about how much those EXPENSIVE shields cost !

Bronze 330 res

Iron 520 res

Tower 650 res

Total 1500 res ie 600 food 900 gold !!

This is a huge expendature to toughen up just slingers which will die horribly to scythes and still get hit by units with much longer range.

In bronze the bronze shield means that non Hitt CA must hit you 25 times rather than 13 to kill your slingers. That is a big help but 330 res can make 6.6 slingers. Unless I needed and was making a good sixed group of slingers or was using/going to use infantry I'd forget bronze shield even!!

... neilkaz...

Scarab
Clubman
posted 06-08-99 01:04 PM ET (US)     15 / 20       
Very true, Neil. The shield's are not cheap. You also have to remember that Slingers are not the only units that will benifit from the shield upgrades.
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 06-08-99 01:13 PM ET (US)     16 / 20       
True, Scarab, but like the man said, unless you are planning to go heavy on infantry against an opponent with lots of archers, (why?) there's probably better things to spend the resources on.

Keep your stick on the ice.

poweroverya
Inactive
posted 06-09-99 10:50 PM ET (US)     17 / 20       
shelds are expensive, true, but they are not exclusively for slingers.....an few sheilded phalanx or even hoplites mixed among whatever army you have increases its potency and versatility. With proper suport, academy units are unstoppable.

------------------
your arrows cannot peirce me.

jihad_jake
Inactive
posted 06-09-99 11:30 PM ET (US)     18 / 20       
Two words: Armored Elephants-- now why they take iron shield is beyond me....
SW_EmperorsHand
Inactive
posted 06-10-99 01:23 PM ET (US)     19 / 20       
Now, for Sarmis_Dionysos, let's return to the discussion of Catapults vs. slingers. Cats win, right Dion? Sorry, couldn't resist.
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 06-10-99 01:34 PM ET (US)     20 / 20       
Tiger Lily had 30+ slingers last night support about 8 ST taking down Jaheed's town.. it was fun to watch..neilkaz..
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames