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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » The Tourney Pairing were not determined randomly !!
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Topic Subject:The Tourney Pairing were not determined randomly !!
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 11:04 AM ET (US)         
This should come as shocking news to all of you, but the DIRECTOR of the AOEH tourney did not make the 1st round matchups randomly !!

There are 25 teams entered in the tourney. Thus 18 teams need to play in the 1st round while 7 teams receive a bye giving them free passage to the next round.

The DIRECTOR arbitrarily gave his team a 1st round bye !!

The DIRECTOR arbitrarily matched all the "good" teams vs each other in the first round. While matching the non-byed "mediocre" teams vs each other.

The DIRECTOR has NOT posted the bracket for the entire tournament. One can only assume that HE intends to arbitrarily match up the surviving 16 teams for the next round.Fortunately there will be no more byes after the 1st round.

What was supposed to be a fun and fair event just has had all the fairness removed from it. I, personally, cannot have any fun playing in an event which, the DIRECTOR'S mistakes has been made unfair.

Arbitrarily matching up all the "good" teams each round will only serve to produce lopsided final rounds. In a similar sence , seeding "good" teams vs mediocre teams as in tennis will only serve to give the mediocre teams almost no chance of reaching the 3rd round. I know see that the purpose of the poll here was to aid the DIRECTOR in his misguided and arbitrary attempt to produce what he must believe to be a fair draw.

The ONLY fair draw is one that is 100% RANDOM. If you play a great team or a terrible team that is the luck of the RANDOM draw. I have played in thousands of backgammon tournaments and one thing they ALL have in common is the FAIRNESS of a RANDOM DRAW.

... neilkaz.. DaRq_Neil

AuthorReplies:
mixmasterjeff
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 11:11 AM ET (US)     1 / 22       
i see your point neil
kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 11:31 AM ET (US)     2 / 22       
I originally had no problem with the tournament pairings, although I did know that they weren't random. But thinking about it further, it is partly because I am one of the benefactors of the pairings (don't have to play one of the "good" teams, no offense to our matched opponents intended).

I call for a re-seeding, done randomly, mostly because the director of the tourney said that's how he would do it. Although this wasn't specified, I also believe the byes should be random as well.

Rounin, I know you are probably taking a lot of heat for this, but you really should stick to what you say. You have done well to this point to organize this thing, and you've made some difficult decisions. We appreciate that effort; please don't give up on us! We implore you to fix this latest problem.

Thank you

Kurtiebird
kcochran@kc.net ~ ICQ 1616884
aka APC_Kurtiebird, VVV_Kurtiebird

Official Smiley Curator. Get your smileys here!

eug1
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 12:38 PM ET (US)     3 / 22       
I also thought some of the matchups were a little skewed....
The original plan was for the matches to be done randomly and that is how they should have been done. Rounin said that his team was given a bye b/c he deserved it due to his work...that is all good and all but the fairness of random drawings would have been much better. My team is facing matty's first round. I would not mind it in the least if it was done randomly, but...The original plan also was for Scarab and Rounin to meet and draw to determine the matches. I may be mistaken but I did not see a reference to this. Everything Rounin was posted was..."this is how I picked it..." I do not believe that anything can really be "fair" with just one person's input. It, of course, is supposed to be a tournament just for fun but with predetermined matchups it kind of quickly loses the fun aspect. No one can complain with a true random drawing but with someone assigning matches there will always be controversy. Like neilkaz said about matching all the "good" teams against each other at the very start kind of paves the way for slaughters in the later rounds...oh well....
Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 01:06 PM ET (US)     4 / 22       
Hello RoR heaven and APC peoples I wish for more free time to play and read the heaven RoR forum. The most active RoR players post here. I am behind the times and found out about the tourny recently.

May I please suggest a way for the teams to be random. The list of 25 entered teams I assume was made by entries received. Have team 25 play 24,, 23 play 22 and so on. This still leaves entered team 1 with a bye, thats not so bad is it?

Then for second round if a "bye" is needed because of uneven # of teams. Have the first team reporting in round one get the bye.

Or if you like I'll make a list and have my puppy make the choice

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 01:16 PM ET (US)     5 / 22       
Tenaciti !! Assigning teams to play by the order they signed up also is not random enough ! Also your method leaves 13 teams remaining after the first round thus requiring more byes.

The proper way to fill the drawsheet is too randomly select numbers from from 1-25 and enter those names on the draw sheet of 32. You will have 9 first round matches and 7 byes. Starting in the 2nd round you have 16 teams that will play off without byes down to the winner.

If Rounin will allow me to help do a redraw, I ,with random input from a couple of others can assume that random numbers between 1 and 25 will be obtained publically, randomly, and fairly! Now we can all play the tournament under the fairness of a random draw system !... neilkaz...

Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 01:27 PM ET (US)     6 / 22       
I am still catching up on the posts here and doing homework (a little i am) I offer to select #'s randomly. I would just pull them from a hat.
king_highlander
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 01:32 PM ET (US)     7 / 22       
You read my post. Enough is said. I do not dislike you Rounin. I am sorry for the harshness of my posts. I am not a mean person but I sound like one and that is enough for me to stop posting until I fix it...

[This message has been edited by king_highlander (edited 05-24-99).]

OneEye99
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 03:00 PM ET (US)     8 / 22       
I totally agree with Neil here. If you are going to seed a tourney, then place the best teams apart so they meet at the end not the beginning. Also my team, Wog's and the old goobers (andyhre's) all got byes and though I don't think any of us will win the tourney, we will definitely give a good game and have all been playing the game for a very long time...
So it's clear the tourney admin didn't know the skill level of all teams involved and thus SHOULD have gone random instead of pairing them up ineffectively.
Giving themselves a bye for the first round, I have absolutely no problem with!
PS. why should maimin/staffa play each other first round? what is the point in that?

[This message has been edited by OneEye99 (edited 05-22-99).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 03:17 PM ET (US)     9 / 22       
My point is that there is absolutely NO reason to seed any teams. There is no REAL way to determine the strength of players let alone teams. Many of us don't play in a rating system corrupted by incompletes, nukes, etc.

Even if 100% accurate ratings existed, there still is no way to tell how much a team that plays together all the time gains over a team w/3 random people on it.

The only FAIR way is a 100% random draw. That leaves it up to chance. If you draw a team that kills you all by 11 min w/tool rushes.. so be it. If you play a team so weak that all three die when your allied CA's hit their stone age towns at 17 min.. so be it. At least your pairings were decided by the luck of the draw and not by the ARBITRARY decisions of the director who is actually playing in the tourney !

Let's all give Rounin a chance to think about this and hopefully he will "Right his Wrong" by allowing a public and 100% random draw..ASAP... neilkaz...

Tiger Lily
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 04:25 PM ET (US)     10 / 22       
If there is going to be a random drawing, shouldn't someone who is not involved in the Tourney in any way do the drawing? They would be impartial and more likely to make it truly random.
Doesn't the tourney start Monday? And does someone have a program that does random drawings? My point is that this needs to be solved ASAP, so everyone can prepare for their games.
If everyone is ok with this idea, I nominate myself to make random pairings. I am not involved with any teams, and I have no knowledge of anyone's skill levels. I promise to make it totally random,(which in my case, will be drawing teams out of a hat.) I will do this for the entire Tourney, and keep track of winners. All I would need is a report of who won and who lost for each game. (What the H***, I'm having a brain lock with my writing anyway!)

------------------
O quam te memorem, virgo?
O dea certe.
{By what name should I call thee, maiden? O goddess, surely.}

MA_Reeces
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 04:33 PM ET (US)     11 / 22       
Why doesn't someone just write a simple program to generate to different numbers 1-25, pair them up, take those two numbers out of the drawing, and continue pairing teams up? I think it'll take too long to acomplish, so I'm not up to it.

------------------
~Reeces
www.rorhaven.dreamhost.com ROR Haven
www.angelfire.com/va/klooker MA website
I am and can be contacted at ICQ # 24654921

Tiger Lily
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 05:25 PM ET (US)     12 / 22       
I can do this tonight and post it on this forum tonight. I will check back at 8 PM EST to see if anyone has a problem with this idea.
I know a program would be better than me but since the Tourney starts Monday, I don't think that anyone can get a program up that fast.

------------------
O quam te memorem, virgo?
O dea certe.
{By what name should I call thee, maiden? O goddess, surely.}

[This message has been edited by Tiger Lily (edited 05-22-99).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 05:47 PM ET (US)     13 / 22       
Please nobody post any new pairings !! The tournamentdraw should be done in PUBLIC in a chat room with any team captains,who so desire, present. I have a very fair way to virtually assure that random numbers are selected from 1-25 and it requires no computer program and only about 10 min of time.

Lets allow Rounin and staff some time to come forward and do the right thing and say that they WILL conduct a random draw.. neilkaz..

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 06:39 PM ET (US)     14 / 22       
I was going to stay out of it, but, jeez, people, it's just a game! Of course a random matchup would make a higher probability of the best teams competing in the final rounds, but in a few months, no one will care. Quite possibly, few people will even remember who won. Just have fun.

Now, it seems that Rounin's honor is being called into question. He's a friggin' volunteer! He did what he thought best, and I'd venture a guess that if, in fact, he has a swollen head, he is not alone. Actually, I'm certain of it.

Scarab set up this tourney, and if he appointed Rounin to do the matchups, fine. It's his tourney. There will be others.

I'd say let Rounin and Scarab work this out. If they decide the schedule stands, it stands. If they decide to revamp the matchups, I'm sure Rounin is capable of being impartial. I mean, it's not like there was a huge purse being offered.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Potejon
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 06:50 PM ET (US)     15 / 22       
In a way:
Draw randomly over again and let the dogs of war loose, that is what we should do, I do not wanna get a bye

------------------
- Pote

"Your shadow is the proof of your excistence. The shadow is the sun's footprints on earth."

jihad_jake
Inactive
posted 05-22-99 08:34 PM ET (US)     16 / 22       
Actually in C++ the program will be quite simple to do... I'll write it and have it on by tonight (sat) or sunday at the latest, I'll also post the source code so it can be used for a future tournament if not this one....
Scarab
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 09:49 PM ET (US)     17 / 22       

YIKES!!!

I guess that I should have cancelled my plans I had last night (as it ended up I would have been better off)

Rounin and I were going to set up the pairings yesterday, however, do to conflicting schedules, we were unable to meet. The tournament's matches and byes (no opponent in first round) were supposed to be randomly generated. The method that was to be used to generate the randomness was the following:

((assuming that Rounin and I were the ones making the lists)) each of the twenty five teams were to be assigned a number by one person (#1) (each team name would be written down on a piece of paper and thrown in a hat). The other person (#2)would have numbers 1-25 written down on little pieces of paper in a hat. The Tounament chart would have (obviously) 32 slots for teams (25 for actual teams, seven for byes). The byes would be in slots number 6, 10, 14, 18, 22, 26, 30. Person #2 would draw a number out of his hat. The team that person #1 assigned to the number that person #2 drew would go in slot #1. The next number drawn by player #2 would go into slot #3. Hopefully you can see where this is going. All of the odd slots would be filled in first, then the even numbered slots would start being filled in until the chart was full.

I figured that the easiest way to do this, seeing that I have no idea who Rounin is IRL, would be to go into The Zone, then find a room were we could chat inside. (since I dont have ICQ)


Rounin

A lot of people have jumped down your throat for this pairings that you have made up. It's unfortunate that you and I did not hook up yesterday with enough time. In retrospect, I should have told you to wait to make the matches up until we could have both done them.

When I said that it was alright for you to make the pairings, I thought you were going to do it randomly. I guess that's the problem when you try to carry on six or seven different "Zone Friends" conversations.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I strongly feel that the pairings MUST be redone in a random fashion. Well, kind of like the Pharoah said...."So let it be written...."

There will be a new pairings made up before the night is over with. I will post the chart here.

You have done a lot of work to help organize, but the non-random pairings cannot work without establishing a system on how to rank the teams. That was avoided since this is an open tourney.


more to come


one busy Scarab

(((i need a drink)))

[This message has been edited by Scarab (edited 05-22-99).]

Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-22-99 10:14 PM ET (US)     18 / 22       
quote:
(((i need a drink)))
May I suggest a nice cold Belgian beer? We've got everything from a light blond beer, over a more spicy beer to the real dark big dudes. Proost! Sante! and Schol!

------------------
Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

Bookmark your new homepage! http://www.tony-net.net/kingdomofages/agerhome/index.htm

jihad_jake
Inactive
posted 05-23-99 02:02 AM ET (US)     19 / 22       
Presenting the (trumpets please) TOURNAMENT RANDOMIZER
Written in C++
heres the exe- match.exe
and here is the source code match.cpp
You run this on your computer and it will make all the first round matches entirely randomly, by team numbers, 1-25, run it a few times to ensure yourself these matches are entirely random.... Note that I didn't cover one instance where two byes might come up at the end, in which case it would run forever, this is very unlikely...however, if it takes more than a few seconds to come up with the first pairing, shut it down and run it again, the chances of it happening twice are essentially nil...
kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 05-23-99 02:56 AM ET (US)     20 / 22       
NOOOOOO

Don't use Jake's program, use mine!!!!

Kurtiebird's Much-Superior-To-Jihad-Jake's Tourney Bracket Randomizer

Kurtiebird
kcochran@kc.net ~ ICQ 1616884
aka APC_Kurtiebird, VVV_Kurtiebird

Official Smiley Curator. Get your smileys here!

jihad_jake
Inactive
posted 05-23-99 09:58 AM ET (US)     21 / 22       
Ah yes but Kurties little javascript program requires you type in all the team names, DOH..... mine is specially designed specifically for this tournament and you won't have to keep retyping in all the names to try it out a few time and be sure its really random..... And best of all I commmented my source code, poor tho it may be, i don't do my best work at 1 AM........ J/k Kurtie yours is great, I don't have quite as much familiarity with javascript and its not very easy to program a graphical user interface with C++
Rounin
Inactive
posted 05-23-99 09:56 PM ET (US)     22 / 22       
i am not getting paid to do this nor do i recieve any benefits. so, i am not going to waste my time arguing with any of you. i'll just treat all these posts as compliments. i haven't been disrespect to anyone in all my posts, and i don't plan on going to. and i don't expect people to respect me. so, say what you will and do what you will. i've tried hard to do what i have to do, but i've failed. i have no regrets whatsoever even though i know a lot of you do not like what i did. and i will do the same thing again if i were to given the chance.

i do stick to my own actions.

Rounin

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