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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Carthaginian revisited
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Topic Subject:Carthaginian revisited
Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-15-99 03:08 PM ET (US)         
Maybe you haven't noticed it, but lately Agers seem to make fun of Carthage the same way everyone makes fun of Greek and Palmy, which I don't understand very well. I have always liked the Carthaginians and consider them a respectful civ in RoR. I think it's time to revisit Carthage for a moment and see if they truly deserve what they get.


ECONOMY
OK, the Carthaginian economic system isn't the best in the game. They don't receive huge bonusses like Shang or Phoeni but they also don't lack woodupgrades like Persia or the wheel like Macedonia. Besides, civs like Hittite and Sumerian also don't get economic bonusses but nobody complains when they get them from the random civ God. I think in an economic point of view, Carthage is OK, nothing more, nothing less.

STONE & TOOL AGE
Carthage gets all the tool age units but that's no big deal since most other civs get them too.

BRONZE AGE
This is probably the reason why nobody likes Carthage, they don't get CA's or compies. "So what?" I'd say, Carthage has a lot of other good units. Their hoppers aren't as fast as the Greek ones but they have 25% more HP. And the Carthaginian stable is OK too: both camels and cavs are available. Sure the range only offers the improved bowman but what do you need archers for with such a stable? But if you really need missile fire then I suggest some offensive towering. They also have broad swordsmen available in Bronze what can't be said of Greek.

IRON AGE
Carthage really peaks in this time frame. They have on of the best fleets with those aggressive fire galleys and fully upgradable triremes. Their stable offers 750 HP armored eles and heavy cavalry. And while archers were as good as unavailable in bronze, Carthage has plenty of them available in iron: HA's and EA's. They don't have cats but they have fully upgradable heles. Infantry you say? What about this: 200 HP cents and long swordsmen.

NEGATIVE POINTS
Carthage doesn't have archers in bronze and cats in iron. Besides that they don't get scythe chariots so they are always gold dependant.

CONCLUSION
I usually play them like this: I go for a mediocre boom and always keep ironing in the back of my mind. In bronze age I use camels and hoppers in combination with stone throwers. In Iron there are a lot of posibilities. Usually I go for war eles and heles in combination with some raiding HA's. If I need fast hand-to-hand units I throw some heavy cavs in the battle. IMO Carthage is a fine civ and I sure gonna play them some more in the very near future.

------------------
Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

AuthorReplies:
Cherub Shadow8357
Clubman
posted 05-16-99 07:44 AM ET (US)     1 / 28       
I'm glad someone else like Carthage. I'd also like to point out that they have a bonus for faster transports. Some people have said that this bonus is useless, but I disagree. The extra speed decreases the time that your land troops are at sea, and vulnerable. It allows you to attack a little earlier (imagine small islands on a gig map). In addition, you can spread out more quickly (or relocate).
mixmasterjeff
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 10:00 AM ET (US)     2 / 28       
due to the fact of there strong iron age many players would rather use carthage in a dm rather than an rm
oh yeah and breydel you forgot to mention that carthage get fully upgradeable heles, so the can get 13 and alchemy and many other goodies. a armoreles/hele rush will take em out
ThE_SlayEr
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 10:05 AM ET (US)     3 / 28       
Your wrong about 1 thing . The sumerians actully do have a quite good economic bouns there farms have double the food so they last longer there for saving u wood so IMO The Sumerians have a quite powerdull econ bonus

------------------
By the one and only MiC_Slayer

Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-16-99 01:05 PM ET (US)     4 / 28       
Yes I know about Summerian farming but what I ment was that Summerian also - just like Carth - doesn't have a bonus in the early ages, meaning from the start of the game until mid bronze. Summy reaches bronze no faster than Carth. Well maybe they do, but then on another basis: Their 40 HP's on villies can stand some lion attacks while a Carth villie might get eaten .

------------------
Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

MiC_Biodigestor
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 01:26 PM ET (US)     5 / 28       
Slayer
farm bonus eh? Sumerians don't have an economic bonus anymore. Don't you know all civs have unlimited farm production?

Breydel
I can't play any of the new 4 civ. I am sticking to the old civs so far and the way you describe Carth makes them sound inferior... no better than greek. BTW, I got greek in random civ yesterday and I am glad my nearest opponent was choson He tool rushed me but when he did, I was already bronzing (14:30 bronze time with 30 villies ) and my hoppers took care of him 2:30 mins later. Of course I had to relocate my villes temporarily.

Phil

Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-16-99 01:35 PM ET (US)     6 / 28       
Inferior? LOL, Just wait until my Carth camels attack your villies when you are researching your Minoan improved bow .

------------------
Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

MiC_Biodigestor
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 03:27 PM ET (US)     7 / 28       
Brey
wait until your camels face my walls with 1 tool age archer behind as the same time as I click on the COMPOSITE ARCHERS upgrade and crancking my first IMPROVED bowmans... Of course, my dirt cheap scout ships took care of you long ago on the sea, but that's another story... hehe.. poor poor camels... poor poor Breydel

Phil

[This message has been edited by MiC_Biodigestor (edited 05-16-99).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 05-16-99 03:34 PM ET (US)     8 / 28       
Phil.. some of us think that using the farm bug isn't proper.. so if you are planning on using why not be fair and inform all your enemies/allies that you will be .. so they can make their own choice as whether to use it or not ? ... neilkaz ...
MiC_Biodigestor
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 03:45 PM ET (US)     9 / 28       
I hear you Neilkaz but I was not saying I am using the farm bug. I was pointing out that Sumer kinda lost a civ bonus when the farm bug has been discovered and made public... that's all If you want to know if I am using the farm bug, I guess you'll have to play me and park a scout by farms and watch! or maybe I could tell you? yes? no? maybe? sometimes? hehe... who knows?!

Phil

ThE_SlayEr
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 03:50 PM ET (US)     10 / 28       
brey: any god player wil have units ready for your attack while there waiting on there bow upgrades

------------------
By the one and only MiC_Slayer

[This message has been edited by ThE_SlayEr (edited 05-16-99).]

Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-16-99 04:17 PM ET (US)     11 / 28       
Hehe Phil, I knew you were gonna say that. One small detail though. These camels are ALREADY inside your walls. Coming from those 2 stables that you forgot to scout on

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Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

MiC_Biodigestor
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 04:42 PM ET (US)     12 / 28       
hehe! Funny! I thought Minnies were a faster civ than Carthage (water map) and therefore, how can you have camels in my town and me no kind of bronze defense already? Am I that bad or you performed a good'ol bronze rush?! In that case, I betcha I have a significant reserve of gold when I am going to leave my town, plus a nice fleet of fishing boats bringing me a constant flow of food, therefore, it is a matter of seconds before I produce an army of compies and kill those blind camels that have been able to kill only 1-2 villies each, since I spreaded and your camels are blinds. If your bronze rush ever happen, I wish you good luck with my superduper rocking econ and my masses of compies coming Why don't we play a game tonight to verify that?! Maybe we should even play it on land, to remove me this awesome and overwhelming economic bonus Minnies have over Carth on water map?!

-"In the left corner, weighting 215 pounds, Phiiiiill The Grreat!... In the right corner, xxx pounds, Breeeeydel!...
All right gentlemens, I want a clean fight. No phantom walling, no farm bug. shake hands" - The Referee

Phil

Under_Siege
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 06:33 PM ET (US)     13 / 28       
I'm gonna reply to the actual thread, instead of the flame war. I consider Carthage to be above Greek and equal to Choson, Palmyran, and Persia. In Bronze they suck, but not as bad as Greek or Choson do. Since they have the camel they at least have the option of surviving until Iron. ( except against a compy civ, then they are totally screwed ).
Once in Iron they have to depend on Gold, which destroys any late Iron wins. They can deal well with scythes, since they have very nice phalanx and Elephants. But their biggest weakness is aginst priest civs. Their only unit capable of dealing with priests are HA. While HA can do the job, it is an incredible weakness. Any priest civ can easliy defeat Carthage in Iron. This is the biggest weakness of Carthage. Their priests are very weak as well, making it very hard to attempt to reconvert your units. If they got CA's they would be a viable civ. Without they are just like Choson or Greek. Except Carthage has a weaker Iron.


Civs I detest more in Random are only Choson, Greek, and sometimes Palmyran ( since they require good starting positions to be effective ).

FWH_Wolfpack
Inactive
posted 05-16-99 10:50 PM ET (US)     14 / 28       
I pretty much agree with Under_Seige although I think palmy and persia are just above carth which is barely ahead of choson. Carth is priest bait. End of story. Their gold dependence only worsens their ranking. On the plus side though, they are one of only five civs that have both tiremes and fire galleys, so they can do ok on the seas. Ohh, and that faster tranny bonus is a joke.
Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-17-99 03:57 PM ET (US)     15 / 28       
Under Siege is right. This is getting out of hand. I got caried away and acted very childish. I didn't realize I was spoiling my own thread about a civ I like talking about so much, so my apologies for that.


To come back to the discussions:
I agree that Carthage is VERY gold dependant but if you realise from the start of the game that you are playing such a civ then you should adapt and mine more gold than usual. For example when I play Persia I rarely run out of wood. On the contrary, I usually have more wood than I need to and you know why? I realize from the beginning of the game that I'm playing a civ that will get into woodtroubles sooner or later so I adapt early and chop more wood than usual. I also keep an eye on my wood reserves more than usual. It's the same story with Carth lacking gold.

One thing I don't agree on though and that's the statement about Carth being priest bait. If we compare the famous first tier priest civ with Carth then I think Carth stands a VERY good chance against them. (We are talking iron or post-iron warfare here right?)

What has Egypt got to offer in Iron?
range 16 priests;
scythes;
war eles;
range 10 ele archers;
range 10 ball towers;
range 10 triremes and range 12 juggs;
maybe range 10 CA's.

Now how can Carth conquer all that?

Lets first take the sea because it's quickly discussed. Carth simply rules it. Both civs have triremes but Carth's awesome fire galleys are a lot better than Egy's catremes/juggs. They have more HP's (unless you would like to spend all those resources on the jugg upgrade), they have more attack damage, they cost a little less wood and they cost almost half the goldprize of a catreme/jugg.

Then the land.
Carthage only needs 3 different types of units to conquer everything that Egypt has: HA's, heles (or balls) and cents (or phalanxes). Make a formation like this: put the HA's in front and the heles right behind them. The phalanxes close off. Keep everything at a reasonable distance together with the HA's scouting a few tiles in front of the rest. With this formation you should be able to conquer every Egyptian unit or mix of units:

Egypt's range 16 priests: Your main purpose of the HA's is to scout a little bit ahead of the heles & cents and raid enemy priests whenever you see them. Kill the priests at all costs, even when they are amoung towers or ele archers. Sure some will get converted and some will get killed but it shouldn't be too difficult to eliminate all the priests.

Egypt's strong scythes: Extra HP's or not, they still are hele bait and if they might approach the heles then move your cents before them. Cents cut through scythes like a knife through butter. The HA's should be backed off but once behind the heles/cents they can help firing at the scythes.

Egypt's war eles: Same story as the scythes. They die to the heles and cents.

Egypt's range 10 ele archers: This is Egypt's thoughest contra-unit for Carth IMO since they can pose a threat to Carth's heles. Simply withdraw the heles and move the cents towards the ele archers. Again, the HA's should raid priests if they are behind the ele archers.

Egypt's range 10 ball towers: Hele bait as well (outranged by 2 tiles). If priests are amoung the towers, send in the HA's again.

Egypt's range 10 CA's: They die terribly to the HA's. If they approach the heles they will suffer as well.

LOL, I forgot about this first but you might consider it an issue too: Egypt's range 12 stone throwers. Since they only have 75 HP's, no piercing armor and a small damage area I think they could be handled well with the HA's.


Well that's it. Now let me tell you which units Carth hasn't used yet:
750 HP armored eles;
750 HP ele archers;
range 10 ball towers;
heavy cavs;
long swordsmen;
poor priests.

Quite a reserve don't you think? Now for defense against Egypt I suggest that a Carthaginian should wall his city in and place towers behind the walls. Also have stables in your city to defend from stone throwers with hcavs. And use a few priests (with medicine) amoung your heles to heal damaged cents and HA's. NEVER use war/armored eles against priest civs. They get converted so easy and you don't want to fight your own 750 HP monsters do you?

Conclusion:
No, I don't think Carth is priest bait at all. In fact, the only civs they have major problems with are cat civs. And Choson, but due to the range 12 ball towers.

Now I realize this is all theoretical stuff and real games might turn out quite different. An Egyptian player has a big chance in having a Hittite, Roman or Minoan pard and their combined units can easily defeat Carth. But again, then it's due to the long ranged siege, not due to the priests.

But Carth is a civ with a wide range of options. You can play them Yamato stylin', Persian stylin' or even Phoenician styin'. Or take the best out of these 3 civs and play them some real CARTHAGINIAN stylin' like I did yesterday in the Zone. Enjoy this screenshot .


http://www.tony-net.net/kingdomofages/carth.gif


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Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

disciplejim
Clubman
posted 05-17-99 05:24 PM ET (US)     16 / 28       
My personal experience to date has convinced me the number one reason we moan, groan and dis a civ is because we haven't figured out how to use them yet. My thanks to all the experts and neo-experts like you Breydel, for posting this kind of thread and helping to educate all us struggling APCer's.

[This message has been edited by disciplejim (edited 05-17-99).]

Jehu
Inactive
posted 05-17-99 06:17 PM ET (US)     17 / 28       
One small point:

If we lower the pop limit from the standard 125 to 75 or even 100, gold dependency isn't as scary to me. But when we are making massive gold-gobbling armies in high pop games, and hoovering up gold pile after gold pile to keep them going, the scythe civs come out on top in the long run.

I played a 3v3 pop 75 game the other day and it was really nice for a change.


DiscipleJim:

Very good point.

[This message has been edited by Jehu (edited 05-17-99).]

Czar Peter the Great
Inactive
posted 05-19-99 00:39 AM ET (US)     18 / 28       
Breydal,
You are doing your comparison against only 1 type of unit. It has been my experience that everyone compares a combo of units against 1 type. That is wrong. Egypt just uses a combo of units. I am sure someone could come up with a better combo, but one I lie, IMHO, is Scythes + Priests + EA + ST. The EA and ST go in and target the helios, and when the phalanx go in after them, they back out, the scythes come in, and the priests convert the phalanx. In the end you have converted phalanx, dead helios, and a big mess. You also overestimate the power of HA. If I have my priests surrounded by ball towers, EA, and ST your HA will get about 2 shots off before dying. My superior LOS will make sure of this. Then my priests heal themselves. I think even priests alone (en masse) could take Carth. They just convert the HA from 6 spaces beyond their range, who die to the helios (killing several). Then the priests convert the helios, one at a time. I had good luck with this in a Choson vs. Choson DM stalemate. Neither of us could get past the 12 range towers backed by helios. Once my enemy broke into my townwith a helio/Legion army and my legions got killed. I still had several priests,a dn I converted his helios who were firing on my buildings. I converted about 7 with 3 priests, and then made more. In the end I had 1 helio. The Egyptian priests outrange the helios by 4 spaces instead of 3.

- Just wanted to put in my $0.02

Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-19-99 03:00 PM ET (US)     19 / 28       
It's very unlikely that ball towers prevent a pack of HA's from killing priests. They are so fast and with so many that only a few get killed before they reach your priests. Sure a wall of 20+ towers stops them but imagine what the opponent can do while you are putting all that effort into mining stone and building the towers. Besides, towers are possitional units. If I face a wall of towers I attack from another direction or bring in cats. Since Carth doesn't have cats I can put my heles on the job with HA's very near behind them to kill every priest that wants to convert my heles.


LOL, that priest only game . HA's are the fastest units in the game and if you are such a good micromanager that you can convert them then I would like to see that, especially in a game with lag. A priest only game is the dumbest thing to do since NOBODY can control groups of priests on several locations at once (priests don't auto attack remember? ). And while you are doing the best you can into micromanaging your priests and convert a few HA's at 3, I move my other HA's at 9 into close range and then let them stand free. 10 seconds later there will be nothing left but lots of frocks covered with blood.

------------------
Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

BenAtLarge
Inactive
posted 05-19-99 03:40 PM ET (US)     20 / 28       
how about carth vs. baby? all those nice carth units dont stand a chance against the hyper baby priests...super ballista towers mess up their front lines...oh yeah, and HCats kill heles and HA for lunch

Or am i just dreaming?

Breydel
Clubman
posted 05-19-99 04:19 PM ET (US)     21 / 28       
No, you're absolutely right, Carth doesn't stand a chance against Babs but because of the cats, not because of the towers. Carth Heles take can easy take out Babylonian towers but they die to cats. Carthaginian armored eles mess up the towers too (750HP with siegecraft) but they get converted soo easy. HA's indeed die to the cats as well which leaves little oportunities left for Carth. I would might consider using hcavs for the cats but they die again to scythes or HA's. Bab wins.


Talking about Babs, that's another underestimated civ IMO. Well maybe they're not underestimated but I don't see people picking them in all-civ games. I guess their bonusses are not as attractive as with Hittite or Minoa. I like Babs too you know, in fact I like every underdog civ.

------------------
Breydel
e-mail : ivan.daems@village.uunet.be
ICQ : 23091968

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" - Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

Jehu
Inactive
posted 05-19-99 04:37 PM ET (US)     22 / 28       
The Egyptian balista tower argument is meaningless to me in this discussion unless you are defending a wonder. I agree that Balista towers can be used offensively, but as Breydel said, they are stationary and can only protect other stationary units or buildings.

I would to using balista towers to help hold territory and resouces and to slow or direct the advance of the Carth opponent, but to say that balista towers+priests+scythes+ele archers will defeat carth is pretty unrealistic in default games. I haven't seen very many people that were able to have all four units in mass and well managed. Plus since you are counting on balista towers a priests you are assuming that the Carth player will keep coming at you at that location. Once again, unless you are using them to defend a wonder, a shallow passage, or resources I need, I can avoid that spot until later and then methodically take it down.

CuC_CaL
Clubman
posted 05-19-99 05:34 PM ET (US)     23 / 28       
Breydel-

Egyptian would just kill Carth in bronze. Egyptian gets upgrade CA which help, but they also get comps if they cannot hit critical mass with their CA. In iron you probably would still lose. Egyptian is a great iron civ and who says that they only use scyhtes anyways. Best way to do it is, raid the heck out of your farmers stopping food flow for your very expensive elephants while saving gold and only making a few priest. Those priest can convert away, but you will send HA to kill them. Egyptian makes loads of CA or EA to kill those, plus towers if need be. Also scyhtes kill HA. Priest convert Cents and EA/CA kill helos while scythes are all over your town. You will soon run out of food and the game is over. This all happens of course if the Egyptian player let you survive in bronze.

------------------
Zone name: _CuC_CaL

COME GET SOME (but dont hurt me)

AoE_TC_FAN_001
Clubman
posted 04-18-07 08:52 PM ET (US)     24 / 28       
What is the farm cheat? My brother would like to know.
GeorgeROR
Guest
posted 04-18-07 09:34 PM ET (US)     25 / 28       
remeber seeing this about something to do with the pre patched version. or maybe it was a hack?
... nevertheless pulling up old posts is definetly frowned upon over here. stay away from doing that again.

*edit* found it= "Farm Bug When both a farmer and Farm are selected at the same time, pressing "S" no longer causes the farm to replenish the amount of food available." from the patch up date bug, which fixed that


[This message has been edited by GeorgeRoR (edited 04-18-2007 @ 09:39 PM).]

Nikokol
Clubman
posted 04-22-07 03:06 PM ET (US)     26 / 28       
Where did you find this thread, EE?

Tribulation Designs
I wish my English was better ...
Dean McCullough
Clubman
posted 04-24-07 06:25 PM ET (US)     27 / 28       
Why do people make fun of palmy? Honestly, its not something easily understood. They have some quick camels and a dandy name. That should be enough for any civ.

Be careful, as the camels of Al-Abdu-Abuba-Jabarba shall destroy your armies, if your one is not careful.

Your a moron. Palmy sucks ahrse and and those turbans certainly don't match the villager's blue pants. Think of something new...

Will blue turbans work?

To be honest, I'd stop worrying about the turbans... Just for your sake... You just plain smell.

Is it the cofee breath? We can change that.

Perhaps so. Perhaps spam will beef up your wahnkerin lil army?

I think I'll go for the blue turbans instead.

Nah, too expensive.

Ah, but so verrry dandy, mm?

Lets settle it over a cup of afternoon tea.

Spit spot bippity bop. Hexcellent.

Try not to spill upon your trousers you barmpot. Oh-hoo-hoo!

Oh-hoo-hoo!

Oh-hoo-hoo... oh deary.

I think that explains it all.
p

[This message has been edited by Dean McCullough (edited 04-24-2007 @ 06:26 PM).]

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-25-07 04:07 AM ET (US)     28 / 28       
Dean: You're in the wrong thread and also in the wrong forum. Try OD instead.
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