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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » boat boom: minoa or phoeni ? (or shang?)
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Topic Subject:boat boom: minoa or phoeni ? (or shang?)
KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 01-21-99 02:15 PM ET (US)         
I was wondering who's the best for boat booming, Minoan or Phoenician? It's not my intention to start a mass-reply thread here saying which of the 2 civs is the best, but I just would like to know if it could be mathematically cleared out. Maybe Shang can be compared as well.


AuthorReplies:
Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-21-99 03:15 PM ET (US)     1 / 13       
Well the phoencian wood advantage helps on everything not just the ships. So I'd have to give them the advantage. Just make sure you keep building storage pits closer to the wood.

I don't think shang has any real boat booming advantage. Their advantage is in saving food from making villagers. Shang would have to make quite a few more villagers then minoan/phoencian to make the same number of fishing ships. Since shang villagers take just as long to make as other civs villagers this won't happen until mid bronze. Of course shang doesn't need as much food at the other civs so it balances out.


BaaL
Inactive
posted 01-21-99 03:51 PM ET (US)     2 / 13       
Well Shang and Phony can get their docks up faster obviously so i would say their better boomers. Shang => less on food = more on wood => faster dock. Phony wood bonus = quicker dock. Roman gets a quicker dock down before minoan too with the cheap buildings. But then with the cheap boats minoan starts to really pump. Unfortunately shang and phony have already been making boats and are quickly on their way to tool while the minoan is still in stone. So you may be able to make more boats as minoan but what good is it gonna do u if ur opponent is in tool and has scout ships on u? I think it's been pretty much determined already that the order for best booming on water is: shang, phony, then minoan. Ofcourse this all depends on how big your boom is and what level opponent you're playing.


Sting
Clubman
posted 01-21-99 04:27 PM ET (US)     3 / 13       
Well this may be a bit off-topic, but shang's iron age navy sucks. Even with fire galleys, they dont get alchemy so they are not as good as some other civs fire galleys. So shang would not be a great boat boomer because they couldnt defend their iron age fishing fleet as well as phoe or minoan could.

Otherwise on serious water maps, I would pick phoe almost every time.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-21-99 07:17 PM ET (US)     4 / 13       
It all depends on how you define boom,but I am pretty sure the order goes Shang, Phoe,Minoa, then Rome. Phoe is close or equal to Shang but Shang can get it's tool/bronze done faster which is better, safer and more versitile. Phoe beats minoa because even w/walking and the 9 sec to take a tree down, Phoe does gather wood 30%faster than Minoa, etc in stone age. Wood is needed for more than just boats so 30% faster wood beats 32% cheaper fish boats. I play tons of island games and my bronze booms sometimes converted into iron rushes are somewhat faster w/phoe than minoa. Rome is behind cause 15% cheaper building cannot offset 32% cheaper FB's in the long run. Let's say Rome saves about 18 wood per building, while Minoa saves 16 wood per boat. You're making 16-20 boats but not 16 -20 buildings.Rome gets it's dock up before Minoa but Minoa will overtake them somewhat as the boom progresses.
Why Shang, 2 simple answers ! 1) Shang can almost always create peons w/out delay.. while most other civ's usually have to get gather 50 food in time to make peon 8(unless you get lucky or don't explore enough perhaps missing a sweetspot) 2) Most civ's when booming have to wait after making 24 peons for food to tool; while Shang doesn't if you go after enough food. Thus, Shang can build 27 peons and tool in 10:02 which is usually ahead of other booming civ's. Those extra 3 peons are worth their weight in gold ! Today, just playing around in practice vs comp on large narrows map, I made 27 Shang peons/14 boats(2 docks) and got wood chopping ASAP and bronzed in 12:45 (was a few sec late with 2 house while booming)with 1400 wood and 950 food at 12:45 when i arrived. Obviously I could have slapped up a 3rd dock and made more houses/boats since I had way too many resources when I tooled. I am sure you can't get these resource levels/times with any other civ.The way to exploit saving 15 food/peon is too make a lot of them !From now on I am going to try 27 peon strats with Shang.I'll go back and test what happens when I go with 3 docks and bronze em in 12:40 w/27 peons/25 boats(50 POP)You might do that with Phoe/Min in 14 flat but Shang will have more resources at 14 from this or better yet 2 more TC's and about 8 new peons. - neilkaz (certified Shang lover ) -


KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 01-21-99 07:54 PM ET (US)     5 / 13       
Hi Neilkaz, (& others)

A short interaction on those last sentences: You CAN go above the 50 poplim on single player. Just start a multiplayer game with only comp players. You can set poplim like in the Zone and launch without your modem being switched on. I only found out this week myself, but you probably know already.


I will reply to the tread discussion tomorrow or so because it's quite late here now (02.00 AM) and I feel really tired now.


Brey


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-22-99 01:11 AM ET (US)     6 / 13       
Thanx Brey, I was aware that you could launch a multiplayer game vs comp and do even 200 pop. However, the map I am using is a saved from large narrows map where I send my 4 peons on the same normal exploring route I used the first time I played the map. This enables me to test and refine various build orders. I ment to try 27 peons/25 boats from 3 docks, but miscounted and had 26 peons/26 boats and a 12:30 bronze, again losing a few sec due to late houses while booming out of 2 docks/one TC. There just isn't enough wood and food flow to get a third functioning dock up before I hit the bronze upgrade button,but it goes up very soon after. This time I had about 1350 food, and 550 wood at 12:45. A lot more food than 24p/17b but way less wood, since I spent 790 on boats/dock/houses and had 1 less dude chopping. I think this may be too many fish boats to be practical in a real game and I'd like to have more wood and the obvious option of using some of those choppers on gold which would mean 120 wood for a pit plus 100 for goldmining upgrade leaving me with precious little wood for more buildings especially since some of my choppers wood be goldmining. I tried the 27 peon approach twice tonite as Shang in real games, where you have more to consider than just sim-citying to bronze and where higher speed and lag can slow you down. Both times I bronzed in the mid 13's w/about 17 boats and had great economies. I am pretty sure no other civ can compete w/these boom times/ammounts. Just try making 27 (ok spending 1200 food for 24)peons w/any other civ and chopping any kind of wood more boats and tooling them in 10:02 as soon as peon 27 pops out !With 27 peons Shang saves 360 food over other civs with 27 peons and 10 food if the other civs go 20 peons.IMO, Shang is supposed to make many peons ASAP if booming !I may try 30 next time I am in the pocket on Med and food is abundant !
- neilkaz -


Ender
Guest
posted 01-22-99 07:55 AM ET (US)     7 / 13       
another reason shang is so good... you can put 1 elephant, a herd of deer, or 1 sf by a forest and still boom without a villager delay. Also if your berries are within 1 screen of you TC 4 villager on it let you pit nothing but forest first and still keep up on villagers.


Spam
Clubman
posted 01-22-99 08:55 AM ET (US)     8 / 13       
We can all agree, I think, that Shang and Phoenie are faster boomers than Minoa. But are they better? I'm not so sure. Minoa's boom saves a lot of wood, an important factor on islands, for instance. Furthermore, since Minoa can build an equivalent number of boats cheaper, they will have more wood to spend on (cheaper)ships to defend them and go kill the enemy. Regarding the ability to get a dock going as soon as possible, well this is obviously an advantage for Shang, Phoenie and Roman. But since they save so much wood, I often find that Minoa can build a second and a third dock just as fast as Shang and Phoenie.

What does all this mean? Well, Minoa's boatboom may not be as fast as Shangs or Phoenie, but after 10-12 minutes or so I think the Minoan one is just as powerful. You will get better bronze times with Shang and Phoenie, but sometime after that the Minoan boom will overtake them, all other things equal. At least that is what I believe.

My 2 cents.

Spam


KA_NolMan
Inactive
posted 01-22-99 09:50 AM ET (US)     9 / 13       
I personally beleive that Minoan would be the strongest boat boom civ. Yes phoeni do get the wood bonus and faster firing triremes. However the 30% cheaper Minoan boats more than make up for this. Remember that this bonus is on fishing boats as well as warships. So collecting fish as minoan is alot cheaper then for any other civ. The trick is to use the cheaper fishing cost, and cheaper warship cost to ADVANCE faster then your enemy, and to take EARLY control of the sea. With this tactic I have still had a 15 min bronze time, and put my enemies back to about 18-22 min. If sucessful you can prevent the 65% faster fire rate triremes from giving you trouble later on.

My opinion on Shang is such; I do believe that shang is unfairly wieghted civ. To use them and win against a non shang enemy is not a true victory at all.


KA_Breydel
Inactive
posted 01-22-99 03:53 PM ET (US)     10 / 13       
Hi all,

Hé NolMan, nice seeing you in the Heaven forums too. I felt kind of lonely here as the only KA representative but it looks that's changed now.

Neilaz, no offense but I won't try the boat boom with Shang. Simply I don't like those 2 most popular civs (Shang & Hittite). They have been played more than enough already. Besides, I feel much better as the underdog .


Most of you guys seem to agree that Phoeni is much better in boat booming than Minoa. I couldn't believe it and tested a few things in singleplayer games.


It is divided into two parts:
--> 1. From start until first dock is built.
--> 2. From then on.
--> overall conclusion

--> 1 From start until first dock is built.
I played with Minoa first and found out that before the first boat can pump out of a dock, you have 1 granary, 1 storpit, 5 houses, 1 dock, a total of 120+120+150+100=490 wood. You already start with 200 so you have to chop 290 wood.
I recorded the time a Minoan needs to chop down a 75W tree with zero walking distance. Result: after 136 minutes, the tree was depleted, giving Minoa a 0.55 wood/sec gathering rate.
Minoa needed 290 wood like I said, so 1 Minoan vill can do it in 290/0.55 = 527 seconds = 08:47 minutes with zero walking distance.

Phoeni has a faster chop rate than Minoa.
Minoa chops 10W in 10/0.55 = 18.18 secs
Phoeni chops 13W in those same 18.18 secs
So the chop rate for Phoeni is actually 0.715 wood/sec.
Phoeni also needs the 290 wood, but they get it in 290/0.715 = 406 seconds = 06:46 minutes.

Conclusion:
For Minoa, it takes 8:47 minutes for one vill to chop constantly at zero walking distance before the first dock is built.
For Phoeni, it takes only 6:46 minutes. The difference is exactly 2:00 minutes.

Now there is one big problem. In real games, your amount of vills grows and doesn't stay at 1. I'm not sure how to interprete this and hope someone can help me. Here is some more data: By the time the dock was built (at 06:28) I had exactly 20 vills. Before starting to chop the first staggler at 01:58, I had 8 vills (6 on berries) and 2 houses. From those 20 vills, 6 were continiously on berries, all other 14 vills were used to chop, to build and to scout for the forest & sea. Also note there is a delay for the tree to get down first.

I think I'll try nelkaz his way of testing next time. Save a game and do it over one time with Minoa and one with Phoeni. I'll let you know what the difference is.


--> 2. From then on.
Suppose each civ with 1 vill.
Minoa needs 35 wood and gets it at 0.55/sec. So the vill gathers the wood needed for one boat in 35/0.55 = 64 seconds.
Phoeni needs 50 wood and gets it at 0.715/sec. The vill gathers the wood needed at 50/0.715 = 70 seconds.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Phoenician trees will deplete faster, making bigger walking distances or extra wood for more pits.
But also, Phoeni uses the chopping bonus for buildings, Minoa doesn't.


OVERALL CONCLUSION:
--> 1. Before the first dock: It's obvious Phoeni rules here.
--> 2. At first sight Minoa rules slightly when boats start pumping out. But taking extra buildings into account, I think it's about equal or maybe a slight advantage for Phoeni.
--> 3. In post iron, when fish spots are depleted, Phoeni rules again.

So I'm surprised but I have to agree that Phoeni is way better than Minoa for the boat booming.


As promised, I will do a test with both civs on the same map and see at which times they get that first dock up. I'll let you know.


Brey


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 01-22-99 04:46 PM ET (US)     11 / 13       
Shang 1st of course but I think its no contest, phonie is better than minaon especially if wood is hard to come by. If you can't pit 1st u should be able to straggle up wood with phonie by peon 14 or so, with Minoan in a bad start situation the pit might not be down until villager 16. You then risk being behind when the 2st berry patch runs out. Sure minoan boats are cheaper but phonie will be collecting wood in bunches faster and require less micromanagement (new pits). TCO everybody!!


O_Captian
Inactive
posted 01-22-99 05:10 PM ET (US)     12 / 13       
I have enjoyed the posts written. Shang, unfortunately is the civ of choice, due to its speed to tool and bronze. Shame on those who play shang. However, I think that minoan has an advantage over phony since its staple bronze unit (compies) are not wood intensive. Thus you have plenty of wood to churn out archeries and seige shops, since you dont have to pay 70 wood a pop for CA's. And obviously, cheap war galleys make an impressive navy. Even if you iron rush, compies spread out and war galleys are very defensive and quite cheap in cost.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-22-99 09:56 PM ET (US)     13 / 13       
I hope no one gets me wrong ! I did not say Phoe's boat boom is a lot better than Mino's just a little better cause it's probably about 30 sec faster to get to bronze w/same ammount of peons/boats. Shang is probably another 30 sec faster and can have more peons/less boats which off course is very important. The quality of the army one can field was not part of the thread. As for the initial boat boom, it should be over by 14 or 15 minutes. I do feel that if all you want to do is crank out fish boats, that mino may catch Phoe in pure numbers by 15.. but should have had a couple more out earlier... neilkaz


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