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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Defeating Boomers
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Topic Subject:Defeating Boomers
Sorcabul
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 03:26 PM ET (US)         
What's the best way to beat a boomer?
AuthorReplies:
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-10-99 03:33 PM ET (US)     1 / 20       
I can think of three ways:
  1. Rush
  2. Out-boom the boomer
  3. Get your hands on the alleged trainer and cheat your @ss off!

Keep your stick on the ice.
Sergei_Makarov
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 04:13 PM ET (US)     2 / 20       
Thorfinn, you must be talking about the trainer boom... Definitely an advanced strategy.
Sorcabul
Inactive
posted 05-11-99 05:38 PM ET (US)     3 / 20       
I was hoping for something a little more specific.

I've been trying bronze rushes, and I do some damage, but not enough to overcome the superior economy of the boomer.

Do tool rushes work better?

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-11-99 05:47 PM ET (US)     4 / 20       
Sorry. A couple questions. What is he booming to, villagerwise? Do they all happen in Stone, Tool, or did he beat you to Bronze? Was he Shang or a fast civ? What do you mean you hurt him? How many did you kill? How did he respond? What troops are you using? How many troops are you using?

I think Phil_the_Great aka MiC_something or other posted a thread about the art of villager killing a couple weeks back. Probably worth reviewing.

Fill in a few blanks and I bet we can help you out.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 05-11-99 06:21 PM ET (US)     5 / 20       
Sorcabul
I think booming is very popular in RoR for 2 reasons (compared to AoE). First, the gigantic map makes it a little bit harder to locate your opponents (even though you see where your partners are) and second, water maps(popular in RoR) are good to boom and produce "wooden villies". What's a wooden villi? That a villager who can only farm but cost 50 wood instead of food... and I named a fishing boat(the food gathering rate of a fishing boat is almost the same as a farmer). So, when you chop a forest, it's almost like if you were choping food because you are actually able to buy a "wooden villy" with your wood, therefore it makes it easier to boom(who can't find a patch of wood?).

So, if you play on a gigantic land map, boomers will generally go to tool with less villies than they would on a water map, because of the absence of "wooden villies".

A boomer will slightly delay his tooling and bronzing time to come out of bronze with a rocking economy. Therefore, there is a small window a non-boomer could eventually take advantage of. No need to say, if you do not boom and fail to kill/hurt a boomer before he is bronze, you're going to be in deep trouble. The crappy bronzing strategy is much rarer in RoR but I saw it used VERY efficiently recently. I guy showed up with 10 CAs while we just made it to bronze. It has been devastating! The tool rush might be another good solution but unfortunately, I do not like to tool rush and I am not very good at it. But I believe on gigantic maps it is easier(than AoE) to counter a tool rush with a good "villager warfare" (relocating).

I do not believe over booming the boomer is a good solution. At a certain villager count, the ressources are coming fast enough for you to get as soon as you are bronze (for example) the wheel, armor upgrade, other market upgrades, boats upgrades and crank a land army without having to wait too much for the ressources to come in. So, if the "normal-boomer" does not have to wait to get all this, tell me how a "super-boomer" will defend during the little time window where he does not have all this and the "normal-boomer" does? Take note that I might be wrong in my analysis.

I would say that killing a boomer can be very similar to killing an iron jumper. You can kill those 2 type of players if your villager count is much smaller but you only have a small time window to do it. To kill the iron jumper, show up in his town with a big bronze army while he does not have a significant number of iron age units. To kill a boomer, show up in his town before he can produce his bronze age units. Make sure you kill a good number of villies (else he might still be stronger than you after relocation).

A little idea... On water map, the tooling time is very important. If you sacrifice your economy for a better tool time, you might be able to destroy or hurt the fishing boats of a boomer before he can actually produce scout ships...

In this adventure, like I reminded MiC_Panther yesterday, you must be able to "read" the achievements very well to understand what's happening on the map. This is key to kill a boomer or to stop a tool rush.

Hope I helped

Phil

[This message has been edited by Phil_The_Great (edited 05-11-99).]

MiC_EH
Inactive
posted 05-11-99 06:23 PM ET (US)     6 / 20       
that would be MiC_Biodigestor:-)
Destroyer_B
Clubman
posted 05-11-99 10:31 PM ET (US)     7 / 20       
I read somewhere the only way to defeat boomers is

a)boom yourself,two boomers who have lots of res and a huge army will have big battles,the person with more experience wins

b)tool rushing the boomer,since they boom,their bronze time will be affected a little bit,allowing for a tool rush.

there may be other ways but these are the two i've been killed by when i try to boom and someone has the right mind to counter me.

Sorcabul
Inactive
posted 05-12-99 05:51 PM ET (US)     8 / 20       
I'll try to provide more details on what I'm doing in response to Thorfinn.

Here's a typical scenario. The game is 2v2 or 3v3, 125-population, continental, no Shang, 125 pop. I play Hittites with Minoan and or Phoenician allies. People rarely take Assyrians or Yamatos, so the fastest civilizations faced are Phoenicians. What I try to do is hurt at least one opponent badly in bronze, link up with my allies in late bronze, then iron, and roll over the remaining enemies with ground forces. Since I ally with good water civilizations, I usually leave the water to them.

I tool a minute before my opponent and build a scout and 3 archery ranges by my base on the way to bronze. I don't usually scout the enemy with villagers, but rely on the scout since I don't attack until bronze.

I bronze in 16 minutes with 19 villagers and 5 fishing boats. The boomer bronzes in 18 minutes with 40+ villagers/fishing boats. His pop only passes mine when I tool. When I reach bronze I research the wheel and build chariot archers from 3 ranges. I always have both woodcutting upgrades (and leather archer armor if I'm facing a stable unit civilization) before I attack, but not nobility yet. By now the scout has found the enemy's woodcutters, so I send 3-6 chariot archers into the middle of them. The villagers scatter and my chariot archers are whittled down by towers and stray camels/cavalry as I hunt them. I kill 10-15 villagers but don't disrupt his fishing.

I keep building chariot archers and villagers and try to build an outpost near the enemy with my 2nd town center, siege workshops, and more archery ranges. If things go well, my outpost gets established, and I finish off his town with stone throwers backed by chariot archers while hunting down his remaining villagers with scouts and chariot archers. If I make it this far, my team usually wins. But, often, chariot archers or camels defeat my follow up chariot archers, and I don't get my outpost established. Then the tables are turned on me as his force descends on my town.


I've considered tool rushing, but it seems hard to do on the big maps in ROR. Villagers have to walk a long way to find the enemy. Also, fighting in tool slows down my bronze time and leaves me vulnerable to my enemy's allies when they come to help.

I've considered using camels in bronze, since they don't have to wait for the wheel upgrade. The problem is the cavalry upgrades for the camels seem a waste since my best units are archers and cats, and I don't usually make scythes unless gold runs low.

I've considered going heavy on war galleys, since boomers rely on fishing boats so much and Hittites have great bronze ships. The problem is I'm always wood poor in bronze, and boomers are wood rich.


I think I let the boomers get too well established. By the time I attack, I'm already at a disadvantage.
My plan is to start scouting more with villagers so I can find the enemy and forward build archery ranges in tool. This will allow me to do resource equalisation with a handful of archers while upgrading to bronze, and build my chariot archers right on top of the enemy.

What does everyone think?
Come on. Let me have it. I can take it.

Hemlock
Clubman
(id: S_Hemlock)
posted 05-12-99 08:24 PM ET (US)     9 / 20       
Bronze in 16 minutes with 19 vils and 5 fb's? Now, I'm not as good as most of the players here, but it seems to me that this is a bit on the low side. Unless I am planning a hard tool attack or food is scarce (not a problem on cont maps), I usually build ~22 vils and by the time I get to bronze, have around 12 fb's bringing home the sushi.

The boomer bronzes 2 minutes after you with double the economy. Unless he makes a fatal mistake or you pull off the perfect attack, it's a losing position for you. Plus, you not only have to wait for the wheel upgrade, but your archerys are at home so you have to travel clear across the map. It doesn't leave much time before he's in bronze and can counter with camels.

quote:
I've considered going heavy on war galleys, since boomers rely on fishing boats so much and Hittites have great bronze ships. The problem is I'm always wood poor in bronze, and boomers are wood rich.

You didn't say how many vils you allocated to each resource, but with only 5 fb's, you probably have some on food. On water maps, you should have your fb's bringing in the food beginning in late stone until a) the fish are gone OR b) the enemy has forced you off the water. Put those vils that were on food on wood instead, it will help prevent you from being wood-poor. It also has the added benefit of allowing you to build a few scout ships in tool to attack his fishing with.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-13-99 08:42 AM ET (US)     10 / 20       
Why stop at 19 villagers? IMO, unless you are planning to hit a boomer three ways, hard, fast and continuously, you should more closely match his counts. If he has twice your econ, you are going to lose. Think of it this way. Every peon could be bringing in 50 resources per minute. If he has a 20 peon advantage, you are fighting 1000 additional resources per minute! You gotta do some of that resource equalization.

Sounds like counting on your allies to take the sea isn't working. Unless you are on a water-free map, I would consider doing a lot more with your Hittite ships. If there are rivers, that +4 range puts a lot of the map under fire.

The other thing that comes to mind is that you seem to be committing the cardinal sin of Iron Jumping. Say 5 "Hail Mary's", wash your mouth out with soap, and promise not to do it again. Hittite has a great bronze! Live it! Bring out some of those tough stone throwers. Heck, throw a hoplite or 2 in front of the CA to take out the camels you will soon be meeting.

And, of course, Hemmie has a point running your CA clear across the map costs heaps of time. Do some of that forward building stuff.

Keep your stick on the ice.

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 05-13-99 11:43 AM ET (US)     11 / 20       
I am starting to enjoy this thread. It really isn't easy to defeat boomers in 3v3's. As you may know .. I am a boomer most of the time so come and get me .

A well executed BIG boom (Shang/Phoe/Mino)(Rome not far behind)can honestly have 30 real vils and 25 FB and be tooled in the low 12's and then jump straight to a high 14's bronze. (Sometimes I can do it 30 sec faster or perhaps squeeze out an extra vil or two or a couple more FB's. At 1.5 speed the time lost micromanaging everything may cost me a full minute but every one else is at least somewhat slower and/or less efficient too.

In a 1v1 on a large map.. I'd be unlikely to get away w/that boom for a couple of reasons compared to 3v3's.

In a 1v1 if your enemy tool rushes you and does more damage to you than the cost to him.. he has hurt you. If he sacrifices early FB's to save some wood for scout ships and overwhelms you at sea w/4 or 5 scout ships.. he has hurt you, although the lack of fish food may slow his bronze.

Now in a 3v3 a guy can still hurt you w/his tool rush.. BUT since it slows his bronze he is vulnerable to a counter attack from your other 2 allies, unless he can really wall in and prepare adequate defenses before his walls(if any) find a hole punched into them (or units trannied around them). Your allies can also tribute you back to health.. while slowing their expansion a bit. If you get your fishing sunk by 4 early scout ships, I probably still have gotten enough food to bronze(assuming you boomed early) and then the slower enemy has to worry about a counter attack at sea from the gallies of the ally next to you which will be aided by your own galleys.

In order to tool rush you have to sacrifice some thing later to do it. If you make a bunch of tool units you are spending food needed to bronze. If you make a few scout ships you are neglecting fishing ships needed to haul in bronzing food and you my be slowing the construction of your 2 buildings needed to bronze.

In a 1v1 there is no one to save your enemy from your early damage and no one else to counter attack you if you severely wound him.

The best way to defeat boomers in 3v3's is to effectively double team them at sea and on land. It is so much easier to trash the boomer who does a high 13's tool and a mid 16's bronze w/60 total v/b than it is to trash the fast boomer who does a high 11's tool and a mid 14's bronze w/50 total v/b.

Ender will remember the 2v3 we played where one of the 3 was a Minoan booming friend of my. It was a med map and my friend was on track for his usual mid 16's bronze w/60.
Well, Ender tooled in 10 and hit his woodies w/upgraed clubbers while I maanged to pull a good boom and still tool in 11. I slow my bronze a bit to make scout ships. The first three of which sank 30 Minoan fishing ships. I made two more to guard my fishing. I got a 15 min bronze and Ender got a 16 min bronze but we had really punished the Mino. I flipped Ender 400 food to get him built up quickly.. and as we were starting to mop up.. one of the other enemies dropped and there was really nothing much of them left.

So to take out a boomer hit him at sea and on land HARD and FAST. This isn't easy to do and requires that the attackers be safe from counter attacks from the other 2 enemies.

Last night in a 3v3 med I was triple teamed early !! I was and end guy (Shang)and each side had a Shanger. My start was miserable and I was complaining about my lameness. Lost one early to hungry kitty and had bad berries placement on hill. Couldn't get around canyon to get to sea quickly to dock. Any how I ended up with a nice boom about equivielent to a normal civ's rather than a Shang super fast boom. During my bronze transition I launched an almost worthless slight tool attack on the Shanger next to me after shooting up some of his shore fishers. I did force him to wall into a little "Box".

Bang !! I was hit w/ a triple team of a double tool rush and a huge scout ship fleet. The top enemy had run half way around the map to help tool me ! I bronzed but was driven out of my town and off my gold and wood. Some gold trib'd allowed me to make 3 cav and dust off the axers/bowmen. I rebuilt in town and lamely missed a wall tile next to my forest as 10 Shang CA's ran in.. running toward my 2nd base.. I led the CA's up a hill where 15 Mino comps and 3 ST's killed them in 10 sec !!

Soon my top ally who was untouched had over run the top enemy who had tooled me.. resulting in his 19 min bronze. Both allies had enough ships to fight back for the sea and they ironed and wipe it clean with remes.

We all soon hit the 150 pop limit and I helped my two allies clean up.

We this game where I my play play was mediocre at best because the top enemy suffered more damage later as a result of tooling me half way around the map than the cost to our team of his tool attack. All 3 enemies lost some resources as a result of triple teaming me. They hurt me but I got away. Because my two allies were basically untouched they were able to build up very powerfully and quickly and mop up.

It really is hard to KILL a good boomer. I was pummeled.. and yet got away why my undisturbed allies built up and mopped up.
This is why booming is so common in ROR giga 3v3's. There are somany places to rebuild and so many way to counter attack.I honestly could care less if the triple team kills me almost completely as long as my allies are then very powerful and mop up... neilkaz...

Sorcabul
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 06:46 PM ET (US)     12 / 20       
I know I need either a faster or stronger (boom) bronze. The feedback I'm getting seems to be suggesting the boom. Putting more villagers on wood for fishing boats instead of shorefish/berries is definitely a boom strategy.

Won't I be in trouble booming since Hittites don't have an economic bonus to help the boom?

I don't think I've been trying to iron jump. I always fight a lot in bronze and iron in 30+.

jihad_jake
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 07:21 PM ET (US)     13 / 20       
No, no, and no !
You should NEVER be attacking a boomer with CAs to start !! Whats the boomer need to succeed ? A little TIME. By waiting for the wheel upgrade you're allowing him to hit bronze and produce some troops before yours get there. If you bronze 1:30 before your opponent and wait for wheel, what has is got you ? NOTHING ! Your booming opponent EASILY will have the resources to mass produce camels as soon as he bronzes, and until those CAs reach one big critical mass, Camels will take them DOWN HARD. To beat a boomer without booming yourself you've got to hit them both FAST and HARD ! That means if you're going for a bronze rush START WITH TWO CAVALRY, then switch two some camels, and finally the CA. There aren't going to be any camels running around before the boomer bronzes, you need to hit them WHILE upgrading to the wheel, the CAs are to locate new bases and MOP UP, not for an initial attack... The only bronze rush thats going to beat a boomer is combined arms that never stop.... Tool Rushing is better because it hits before the boomer has two things he needs: WALLS, and BOWMEN. Vs any kind of fast bronze attack 4 or 5 bowmen with armor will put a stop to one or two cavs quickly, and efficiently, and with a greater economy you can afford it. And if they wait for CA's Camels take them out.....
Steve Ryan
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 07:54 PM ET (US)     14 / 20       
Boomers, if you cant beat Ďem join em.

Easier said than done. I can boom fine until bronze then I suck. I am so busy worrying about military that I forget to continue the boom. I usually end up with 40 vills at the end of a game. This means the boomers and their 90+ vill count have killed me off.

The fact is in an allied game or 1v1 on any map larger than Large you canít beat a guy who can out boom you. Because of this I usually set the map at Large so my lame post bronze booming skills can be overcome by my good rushing skills.

The boomer is actually easily defeated on smaller maps. Your 2 minute leeway in tool is enough to hurt him badly. Combinations of Axemen and Slingers with a scout thrown in should be enough to find and wipe most of his vills. (Donít forget the docks). He will probably still make bronze but your untouched vills will have chopped enough wood (and a bit of gold) with fbs bringing in the food to also bronze with an economy that will be able to provide you with enough camels and caís to take on his now reduced bronze military.

I have actually been experimenting lately in 1v1ís (large only maps) and if you go Tool with any more than 22 real vills against high rated players their tool rush will devastate you. (Its taken me a few losing games to find this out). (Rating down from 1670 to 1590 boo hoo).

22 seems to be the magic number. (off course you go on making fbís till the sun goes down). It is interesting that I believe most of the higher rated players (while quite capable of it) do not boom in 1v1 contests.

So solution if you canít boom as well, play on smaller maps and go for 1v1 contests. In you above scenario you would have kicked ass in a 1v1 or small map.

As neilkaz said.. and he is an excellent proponent of the boom strategy.. you wont hurt him enough on a big map or if he has any sort of allies.. so why bother !

Steve Ryan

Steve Ryan
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 11:43 PM ET (US)     15 / 20       
Thanks Jihad_Jake.

Its seems so obvious do send out a couple of cavs when bronze rushing, but usually I worry about camels and archers.

But you are right if you are rushing he wont have any camels and if you wait for the wheel then CA's he gets another 1.5 minutes to pump out camels. How many vills could 2 cav kill in 1.5 min.. about 10 at least (especially with a scout hunting them out) (this would win you the game).

Next time I'll do this !

disciplejim
Clubman
posted 05-19-99 02:51 PM ET (US)     16 / 20       
bringing strategy threads to the top
apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 12-19-99 12:59 PM ET (US)     17 / 20       
Thought ya'll might like this one.
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 12-19-99 06:59 PM ET (US)     18 / 20       
I dont like it. Cause i dont have RoR and i want the patch to come out so i can get it back and start playing. This thread made me cry because i want to play RoR now and i don't have the CD.. yet..

And i have also realized that i have forgotten all the strategies.

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 12-20-99 10:57 AM ET (US)     19 / 20       
Why do you think I'm bringing them up for ya?
borgboy12
Clubman
posted 12-22-99 08:58 PM ET (US)     20 / 20       
Apoc, you brought it up on the same date as jim, except a few months later

Kaban, when you get into the action, it will come to ya

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