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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Palmyran Power!
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Topic Subject:Palmyran Power!
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Elijeh
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 05:25 PM ET (US)         
I know, Palmyran and power just dosn't seem to mesh, however! Palmyran is a pretty decent civ..in 1vs1's their not good, in 2vs2's their semi good, and in 3vs3, and 4vs4 their AWASOME! Remember one thing: your villagers are almost 44% better on each food source...Let me pull out the Mr. FiXiTs Civ sheets'ere
Table: 1
___/|Gathering Rates*|\___

Ressource | Palmyran | Normal | Bonus**

Wood .76.56.76
Stone .65.45.65
Gold .65.45.65
Forage .65.45Nil
Hunt .65.45.75
Fish .80.60Nil
Farm .45.40Nil

*All rates are givin as the amount of food gathered per second.
**Special Civ: Phoenician for wood, Bablyonian for Stone, Egyptian for gold and Persian for Hunting. All "special" civs recieve a +3 carrying ca[aciety, which Palmyra lacks.

As Above table shows, Palmyran has a very capable economy. Now, what do these figgures amount to?

Table: 2
Productivity
Wood: 26% increased productivity
Stone: 45% increased productivity
Gold: 45% increased productivity
Forage: 45% increased productivity Hunting: 45% increased productivity
Fishing: 33% increased productivity
Farming: 12% increased productivity
Now, the above table shows the approximate increase of each resources productivity as Palmyran. As you can see Palmyrans "natural" resources all benefit from a large productiveity increase, in fact, said increases are incredible high when checked against the "sound" documentation of Microsofts manauls. Microsoft has an annoying habbit of converting decimal point values to Percentage values. witness the Assyrian fire-rate. Said fire rate should be .9 for Mounted archers, and .75 or .8 for foot archers. However, all Assyrian archers share a 1.1 fire-rate.

Notice palmyrans production value of Foraging(berry-picking), at a whopping .65 food its faster than shore fishing for all other civilazations. Now, as Palmyran Villagers cost 75 food each, you require a 50 advantage in production to break even. Also, the expensive villagers means that Palmyran can afford only 2 vilagers in compasion to every other civilazations 4(shang is an exception with 5) fro mstarting resources on default resource games. However, you effectively have 1 villagers for cost, and productivity increase in refrence to food sources(Fishign and farming excepted), therefore your starting 3 villagers are equivelent to 4 villagers in productivity. for palmyran to gain an edge on the opponent it is Imperitive to find a Food source Quickly, in fact ASAP! avoidin hunting gazelles who do not have a forest nearby unless you have a large number of straggler trees(those single 75 wood trees), or a forest close to your TC(towncenter). Why? because as Palmyran you won't to perserve resources as often as possible.

Therefore, berries are often the most relible food source, as they can't move, and they do not decay. In fact, having more than 1 villager to a single berry bush is counter-productive, and should be avoided at all-costs, unless it will sacrifice villager flow. However, having more than 1 villager per gazelle is very productive, as it minimizes decay. For elephants your should maintain a ratio of 8 villagers to one elephant being harvested. Shore fish should be avoided as unless encountered in packs of 4 or more their far more diffucult to maintain a steady villager flow, as villagers often stumble and bump into each other, reducing effiecancy. Therefore berrys are the most efficent starting food source.

Do not explore for a "sweetspot" but rapidly place a granery near your berries:: although speed matters, do not place the gtranery in-effiecntly. Therefore, should you have a line of berries, place the granery 1 tile from the line, so as to maximize effiecancy. In sitations Where berries are not conviently place, try to place the Granery wher ethe most berries can be gathered with a single villager to a bush. although it will apear that your 5 villagers are doing well on the berries, place our 6th and possibly 7th villager on berries. the 7th villager should only be Placed on berries in a sitation where it is required, do to lag between villager production.

The advice of Celestial dawn: "Your Town center should never be idle" does not apply to the Palmyrans. Do not succemb to the notion of building 20 or more villagers, Unless you plan on doing a massive boom/power-up and have the location to do such a strategy. Palmyran is more than eqaul to most civilazations with 17 villagers, which is about 24 villagers in other civilazations. Also, beware of performing large dock-build ups, as Palmyras food gathers often strip food sites bare in a short time, requiring multiple food buildings. A few fishing boats is suitable, as well as 1 or 2 trade boats if you know where an allies dock is.

Scotuing is always paramount, however Palmyra can not afford the early scouting of other Civilazations, as that is taking almost 2 villagers from production. However, scouting is paramount for discovering secondary food sources. Palmyran appears to be slow, but givin a solid spot(a few gazalle herds, 1 or 2 straggler trees and decent berries) Palmyra can make it to the bronze age before other civilazations with the exception of shang. Phoenician loses what few advances it holds over Palmyran besides the ability to Tool faster.

The Tool age is not a happy time for Palmyra. They have all units in the Tool age , but then again, only two civilazations lack units in the tool age. Palmyra is not an exceptional fast civilazation to the tool-age, and as such it shouldn't rarely tool rush, although a rare "resource eqaulization", the act of sending a few Slingers or bowmen towards the opponent as your go to the Bronze age in order to stunt their economy and gain reconionce, is still a viable tactic. Walls can be used, in fact i believe walls should always be used for protection of valuble areas(gold, wood and a single food source, can be a protected granery with farms) from raids. A Stable should be constructed at your Town while you move villagers from a surplussed resource to Gold. Go towards the Bronze age with a market as your 2nd technology building, and train a scout. Discover nearby land, and any enemy infiltrations, and respond as appopriate.

As your Bronzing your should have built a 2nd or 3rd stable, and stockpiled enough gold to aford 2-3 camels when your arrive at Bronze. Research Leather Armor For Cavalry and Toolworking, in that order, then economic upgrades as desired, leaving around 400 food in the bank for bronze, and then depending on your choice in bronze, Metelworking or move towards Composite bowmen. You should be 2-3 camels and send them out to harras and destroy what they can, targeting villagers. Use those fast camels(2.5 tiles every second movement) to scout out your opponent.

Now, what you do from here is up to you....

AuthorReplies:
Cherub Sting
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 05:32 PM ET (US)     1 / 50       
I tried for a very long time to play palmyran effectively, and I came up with one conclusion, which is that they suck

They are slow, with a mediocre military. In 4v4 they arent really that great. They totally blow on hill country, and they suck on islands too. They have no "good" maps to play them on. Medium resources benefits them more. If it was medium resource continental (not medit) I would play palmy. Otherwise you wont see me picking palmy, except if I want to mess around and not play seriously.

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 06:35 PM ET (US)     2 / 50       
I like palmy, but I can't use them too well. I played with them versus the computer, and I had four berry patches and a gazelle herd gone after 23-24 minutes. That was with about 12 villagers.
Talon
Inactive
posted 05-08-99 06:43 PM ET (US)     3 / 50       
Put that in the Academy! I like Palmy ( ) And I win 100% of my games with them(I've only played them twice but still.. )Good strat! Palmy strats are RARE.

[This message has been edited by Talon (edited 05-08-99).]

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 07:26 PM ET (US)     4 / 50       
Sting, there not that sucky man..just ..palmy..i like'em so thar!

this looked alot better in the RTf file ;x

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 10:06 PM ET (US)     5 / 50       
Hell, if Sting can't play with them, I damn well know I can't.
disciplejim
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 10:07 PM ET (US)     6 / 50       
Interesting stuff Elijeh, thanks for the post. One question though . . . could you please explain the reasoning behind "Research Leather Armor For Cavalry and Toolworking, in that order"? Other general strat guides I have read called for the attack upgrade first. Before I starting looking for help I routinely went with armor first, now I go with attack upgrade first. Please help me out here.
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 05-09-99 05:38 AM ET (US)     7 / 50       
sure disciple

Okay, armor first because that +2 armor is needed to prevent villies from hurtin' yer raidin' camels. Although the attack is good, it'll require 4 hits to kill a villie, and you'll take alotta damage. However, AFTER leatherworking, armor sin't viable as you'll often meet small numbers of CA in early bronze, which is the time at which camels are at their peak.

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 05-09-99 04:41 PM ET (US)     8 / 50       
I sort of disagree with Eli. for palmyrans, comps is a MUST. even massive camel hoards will die to massed CA's. 'mels are great for absorbing damage and perhaps even dealing a bit of their own if they ever make it to the CA's. the problem arises that all hand to hand units walk stupidly amongst the archers, and often times they will walk around the one directly in front of them to the back to try to hurt the guy w/ less hp...stupid. you need the comp backup. train your 4 'mels, then go comps. you can do the bronze version of resource equalisation with your mels, but make sure you go comps. furthermore, eli is right in that less palmy peons equals more of other civ's peons, but not quite that much. it's a 5/4 ratio. 4 palmy peons=5 other civs peons. therefore, 20 peons is probably what u should have, which =25 of other civ's peons. palmy has a superpowerful boom on the seas, almost like a phoe thing. this leads to another correct point in eli's post, you need to put those peons on all the food within the NEAR vicinity of your tc. you must must must tool asap and throw up walls to protect your overpriced peons. once in tool, i suggest going happy on the wood and fish boats and getting your food that way. the way i play palmy is very defensive until mid bronze, and u can see that by my tactics. i can boom to 40+ and bronze maybe just 30s to 1m later than everyone else, but with a nice 24/16+ realpeons/boats ratio. then i just start pulling out my can of whipass on them hehe .

4v4 is actually where palmy just shines. the most important thing however is praying that the palmy is one of the pocket players, i.e. not on the outside. if he's on the outside, have one of the pocket players build on the palmy or tool rush the next closest guy (i personally prefer to build). the reason i say palmy shines is because of the massive econ question. normally, if u add up the peon counts in mid/late bronze age, the team that is winning is the team w/ more peons, because they can support the army. palmy peons, once in large masses, tear forests down like there is no tomorrow, thus being able to feed a mino to fight the boat wars to protect the palmy fb's which bring in the food for more peons. on hills, it's much harder as food is scarce. the tactic i like with palmy on hills is to wall in and sling...in other words, don't go bronze, just stick farm and cut trees. snag the gold mine when your partners are ready for the gold units. as food provides while you're feeding, make a few more vils. more vils=more resources. if u want, u can trib an ally a load of food and have him build farms to help you with your peon production. peon production however, comes when everyone else is just about ready to iron. this is when you need to bronze to prepare for a long lasting ironage war, as your allies by this point probably don't need your tributes any more.

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 05-09-99 04:42 PM ET (US)     9 / 50       
oops, one more note...if anyone doesn't pick have at least one palmy on their team in a med res game, i laugh at you :P. the reason palmy hurts early is because of peon lag between 5 and 6. on med res, there's no lag.
disciplejim
Clubman
posted 05-09-99 05:04 PM ET (US)     10 / 50       
OK, I think I get it now.
1) The +2 armor means it takes 125 villie hits to kill a camel rider vs. 42 villie hits without the armor.
2) The +2 attack means it takes 4 camel hits to kill a villie vs. 5 camel hits without toolworking.
So . . . armor gives more economic damage & disruption for the buck in this kill the vills case.
I was too lazy to "do the math" before.
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 05-09-99 09:48 PM ET (US)     11 / 50       
Hmmm.. thats odd sting, i though palmy was good on hill country...

Why arent they good on hill? the can gather bushes fast and chop wood, there is no boats so actual villagers are the most important and palmies are the best. + you can pull a fast bronze with 16 vills and an economy as good as others.

------------------
FanatiC KaBaN
kaban.cjb.net


Sergei_Makarov
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 02:25 AM ET (US)     12 / 50       
I say go for the attack upgrade. The point of the Camel speed increase is to mack running villagers faster, and toolworking will help even more. I would loves to see villies attack my camels!
Grand Pooba
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 08:28 AM ET (US)     13 / 50       
RomanWahoo knows what he's talking about.

I wrote a comprenshensive guide to Palmyra back, oh 4 months ago or so.

Read it.

Own the world because of it. :-)

-Grand Pooba

Paralyticus
Clubman
posted 05-10-99 09:25 AM ET (US)     14 / 50       
Ok, my rookie word on Palmyrans:

They rock on Reveal Map settings - even highland or Hill Country - they are the ones that will hunt and collect berries (indifferently) the faster and the better, just pick whatever is nearer .

While Persian will only hunt and later have no wheel (have you tried to move thos lazy bums around?...), Shang and others will collect at standard speed and Phoenician will onlt chop wood faster, the Palmyran Villager will be good at all of them and allow for added flexibility in which resource to pick.

My take on this is to spread out and "compy-protect" the biggest nucleus of gold+wood operations.

Tool age is the best time for spreading out, the enemy CA will find the pockets soon in bronze, so it is maybe a good idea to concentrate / defend a walled-in area and to possibly wall in the other areas.

CA + ST are a certainty, you gotta be ready for'em - and "running away won't save you!"... as the taunt says.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-10-99 02:23 PM ET (US)     15 / 50       
Couple questions, Grand Poobah?
  1. You need to have an ally who will come to your defense. Am I just having poor luck, or are there very few players who "forward build" a couple military buildings in your camp?
  2. How long is the gap between 5 and 6?
  3. I see very little about timeframes. Obviously, if an opponent stops at 16, you have to adjust, but how often can you complete the 19 villagers prior to tooling?
  4. Is there some benchmark time you shoot for?
  5. On watery maps, I am a little scared to leave the sea alone that long. Doesn't it make it hard to get onto the sea with the scout ships out and about already?
  6. Do you trib as you have resources, or do your allies mention what they need? Or do you ask them?

Thanks.
Sergei_Makarov
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 03:08 PM ET (US)     16 / 50       
How about a palmyran slingshot with Palmyra as the bullet. Tool early (12 vils?) and go for a camel bronze rush.
kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 03:37 PM ET (US)     17 / 50       
I've always thought Palmy would be a good feeder, given the faster gathering ability, coupled with the free tribute. Doesn't that sound powerful?

Kurtiebird
kcochran@kc.net ~ ICQ 1616884
aka APC_Kurtiebird, VVV_Kurtiebird

Get your smileys here!

Scarab
Clubman
posted 05-10-99 03:42 PM ET (US)     18 / 50       
Palmy is a good feeder civ if they go un-molested into the 17-20 mark of a game. If they are hit early, it is much harder for Palmy to rebuild than all of the other ROR civ's. Villager losses are far too costly.
Grand Pooba
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 03:43 PM ET (US)     19 / 50       
Thorfinn: Having languished on the GX forums which seem to be suffering through a bout of "lackus-interestus," I am very excited to talk strategy and offer some points on your points :-)

1. You need to have an ally who will come to your defense. Am I just having poor luck, or are there very few players who "forward build" a couple military buildings in your camp?
Ah yes, the the question of what to do when your allies screw you. :-) I make the following statement in the guide: "I make the assumption that your allies are competent, and have a skill level comparable to those of the foe. Just as Palmyra will never be competive 1v1, she could hardly be expected to "lead the charge" in battle. You must count on your allies to fill the prescription of pain that this strategy has written for your enemies." In short, I wouldn't take Palmyra into a serious game without knowing your allies and having confidence that they have knowledge about various slingshot strategies. It is an entirely seperate topic for discussion, but short of a sling-shot, Palmy should only be used to even the playing field with friends among whom you are clearly better. :-)

2. How long is the gap between 5 and 6? Know what? I'll answer this with points 3 and 4 too: Palmy requires the management of a unique economy. The basic strategy of my guide follows an AoE-style tool-rush economic model for the Stone Age (modified for RoR, of course) :-)

I'll get specific here. RoR is dominated primarily by boom economies. The higher pop limit, the abundance of fish, and the larger water-heavy maps increase the value of boat-booms. In general terms, a boat-boom is accomplished by focusing real-villager production primarily on wood, with the exception of 5 initial foragers retained in order to maintain steady villager flow. In an AoE-style tool-rush, however, the focus of villager production is on food. I use an 18-villager economy for reasons laid-out in the guide. (Tooling with fewer will not give your economy enough punch in the tool-age). An 18 villager tool require 4 houses, 1 granary and 1 storage pit a total of 360 wood. You start with 200, so you only need to find 160 wood on your own. One or two villagers chopping wood is all you need until you hit the tool upgrade. The rest go on food.

I shoot for a 9-10 minute tool age, obviously hitting the upgrade by 7-8 minutes. The most critical part of the game, then, is to be sure to get constant villager flow going by 2:00. If your 6th villager is out by 2:00, and your foragers have achieved constant villager flow, your 18th villager should be in action by 6:00. If nearly every villager is placed on food duty, you should reach the tool age first which sets up the rest of the strategy for success.

Beyond the 9-10 minutes tool, I detail in the guide the need for an 18-20 minute bronze.

5. On watery maps, I am a little scared to leave the sea alone that long. Doesn't it make it hard to get onto the sea with the scout ships out and about already? Remember the grand plan! Your allies are dishing out the pain in the early game. If they've used your tribute well, the bad guys won't have the economy to hold the seas. Most likely you've hit the bad guys first and they'll be struggling desperately to conserve enough wood to build bronze-age building to counter your attack. Additionally, I can categorically state that you have NOTHING to worry about if you're in the pocket on a continental map. :-)

6. Do you trib as you have resources, or do your allies mention what they need? Or do you ask them? I try to tribute as little food as possible. Otherwise, I run the risk of seriously damaging my time to bronze. If your allies are prepared for this, they will tilt their own economies in favor of food and make the most use of your tribute. After an initial tribute of 400 wood or so, I shift to wood and gold and tribute continuously (i.e. every time I collect 200 or so of each). If an ally asks for food, though, you should send what you can. Reason being that if he fails because he has tons of stables and gold but no food to make cav, then he will fail to hit the enemy first, and you will die along with him. Send the food and tell him to get the rest on his own - with a "LOL" of course :-)

Thanks for the inspiration to talk strategy. :-)

-Grand Pooba

[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-10-99).]

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 05-10-99 03:58 PM ET (US)     20 / 50       
Pooba,
You offer one, single, and very rigid strategy for palmyran. Although it is more comphrehensive than my "guide" it dosn't give you much of an analyis as to what you can always do with palmy.

Also, 15-16 vills on food? 2 on wood? Not bloody likely. This is a "best" sitatuion, in which you've got a convient gazalle+wood and 3 strag start. However, the gazalles arn't always with wood, and in that case, you be *ucked up, as your "2" on wood strat don't work.

Supporting this is the fact that palmy will absolutely RIP up food sources. So therefore, you require often 2 granerys or such. So therefore, you'll need more than 2-3 on wood.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-10-99 04:37 PM ET (US)     21 / 50       
My interest in Palmy is more than academic. I drew Palmy 2/4 in games on Saturday, and 3/3 on Sunday. In only one of those games did my tribbing directly add to my defense. In all other cases, I may as well have just held outo the resources and tried to make do.

I used to play Palmy regularly in LAN games with Red_Karen as my Hittite partner, and it was fun hearing the cries of dismay as RK's chariots became fully upgraded scythes while ravaging someone's bronze camp. Yes, a slingshot is really powerful, but takes teamwork.

However, my experience on the Zone is that such teamwork is hard to come by. In the not too recent distant past, there were a couple threads about what you do when a partner is attacked. Attacking the enemy was the answer of choice, and seems to be the tack most frequently taken. However, that will be devastating to a slingshot "team" because one member has deliberately not taken the military upgrades, and attacking the enemy essentially guarantees that your team's econonomic powerhouse is out of the game.

Anyway, when you draw Palmy in a Random Civ game, do you try to just make them a "poor man's Babylonia", or do you try to get one of your teammates interested in a slingshot?

Thanks.

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 05-10-99).]

Radagastt
Inactive
posted 05-10-99 07:22 PM ET (US)     22 / 50       
In my (albeit relatively limited) experience with unknown partners, I have found that they are always VERY reluctant to try a slingshot, or when you are hurting economic wise and military wise, they still tell you to rebuild and fight 7 minutes later instead of playing the role of a feeder and giving them food for military units. Whenever I reccomend feeding or a slingshot, they have almost always (with very few exceptions) told me not to feed them and instead field a minor army rather then let them field a large army with the resources that you tributed them. Therefore, I believe that if you were to take palmy in one of those games with unknown partners, they ussually are against a slingshot or any form of a "feeder" palying style.

Just my inconsequential and trivial 2 cents.

Radagastt
Sarmis_Dionysos

DaRq_SoLo
Inactive
posted 05-11-99 00:40 AM ET (US)     23 / 50       
Palmyrans are a powerful civ. Their best boom in water maps are with 16 vills and about 24 boats in about 13:30min for bronze (with a very good spot). 24 boats are more than a phoen player can build in a boom with fast bronze in the same spot. This allow you make a good army and still keep making vills from TC.

Palmyrans are the only civ with almost all units in the game. They don't get Engineering, but cavs and dumbos can do the job if you mix them with cats.

I should be posting my Palmyran guide long time ago, but something, may be a virus, damaged the partion table in my HD

"Palmyrans get more working power in less time than any civ in the game". Forget the cost that's the key.

Good luck all.

------------------
DaRq_SoLo

Sergei_Makarov
Inactive
posted 05-11-99 03:48 AM ET (US)     24 / 50       
The one offensive bonus that the Palmyrans do get is the increased Camel Rider speed which is essentially a bonus against running villagers. Palmyran Camels are perhaps the best villager killer in Bronze, especially early Bronze.

To fully exploit this bonus you would have to raid the enemy before he has a significant defense, so reaching Bronze early is a crucial element if Camel rushing is your goal.

In later Bronze, you would probably want to run around evading your enemy's army and raiding villagers.

------------------
Sergei_Makarov ex CSKA hockey great, aka LoST_nFound

Paralyticus
Clubman
posted 05-11-99 04:43 AM ET (US)     25 / 50       
Important thing about Palmyran Villager Cost

Stop bitching about how expensive they are.

You ONLY need:

ONE house at start

FOUR-FIVE Villagers on berries, to have almost constant Villager production.

This means: You have more Villagers left to explore and chop wood. You'll be seeing the 18th Villager in no time
PLUS you'll have explored a lot of territory and found new resources, all while not losing a bit in resource gathering.

Yes, I know: It won't cut it against a Shang in 1x1, but it may well be all you need even to successfully oppose a Phoenician.

The beauty of it is that you just MAY go Tool with a few Villagers, if a Tool rush is in the horizon and still have equivalent gathering power to match the rusher's higher number of Villagers.
Your Tool is not different from any other in the military department - no bonuses, but also no penalties

More facts in favour of Palmyran


FIVE-SIX Villagers on Wood to give you all the wood you may want for buildings, economic and military, docks and boats, upgrades...

After Tool put some on gold and maybe 2-3 more on wood.
If and when you start with Stone Throwers add + 4 Villagers to the wood party.

All the time, some 8-9 Villagers on Gold is enough.

You will NEVER be out of resources for anything.
In fact, you will have extra Villagers to gather excedents, tribute, build Towers and locust the resources.

And, if you have gazelles, elephants and, above all, berry bushes around your home area (100 tiles, maybe) you are set until Iron, fishing or no fishing.

That's quite an economic powerhouse.

I was surprised yesterday, how well I did with them.

In Bronze, don't say you are not well served: Composites, fast Camels, Chariots, Chariot Archers, gee, what a good mix.
In Iron, yes, no Engineering and no Helepolis. But look, Heavy Cats, Armoured Elephants and Scyhes are quite a mix. And HA, for some extra Villager hunt...
Add Ballista Towers, for size.

I think that, contrarily to popular belief, Palmyrans are a great "come-back" Civ. Due to their upgraded gathering, you can be rolling again in no time flat. I've done it before.

I would only play "feeder" with them just after I had kicked someone out of the game, hehe.

[This message has been edited by Paralyticus (edited 05-11-99).]

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