You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.15 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » A few thoughts on Babylonian
Bottom
Topic Subject:A few thoughts on Babylonian
Jehu
Inactive
posted 05-06-99 11:19 PM ET (US)         
This is not geared towards the more experienced players since none of this is new. Very little is this late in the game. But with the popularity of random civ games, there is room for discussion on the less popular civs. Thus the Babylonians.

If youíve read my posts over these months you no doubt realize I like Hittite. There are several reason for this. For one thing they have my favorite iron age units in cats, horse archers, and scythes. Secondly, they are not gold dependent, and that is big with me. Third, is their awesome military bonuses and that their bonuses are for my favorite units. Among their negatives are no economic bonuses, heavy wood dependency, and no compies, etc.

Now Iím not going to try and convince you that Babs is a top tier civ. But they have some definite positives. The beauty of Babs is they share the best bronze age tech tree in the game, along with Shang and Phoeny, and they get horse archers, heavy cats, and scythes---the Hittite connection. What does that really buy you? Awesome slow civ flexibility in bronze, compies, and an iron age that feels familiar to the Hittite player.

As a Hittite player I have often suffered from compie envy, and have occasionally played with Minoan because of it. But thereís that problem with gold dependency. In 3v3 and 4v4 games, its not uncommon for gold to be a deciding factor. If (s)he loses the seas and is thus unable to trade, a Minoan can be defeated by simply denying him gold. Now I would never pick Babs over Hittite unless I just wanted to play with compies, but I think Babs is a good draw in random civ games.

In 1v1s or 2v2s, where the games are usually won in bronze there are no doubt better choices even among slow civs, but Babs can hang. For instance Egypt has military and economic bonuses plus very good unit flexibility which makes them the winner head to head, all variables being equal. Phoeny, a fast civ, is a better choice in bronze because of their economic bonus, but militarily there is no bronze age difference between the two. Beyond that, Babs can use their flexibility to play with anyone in bronze.

In 3v3 and 4v4 standard vic games, Babs starts to make even more sense. They can use their bronze flexibility to make a difference and then you have a pretty good land-based iron age (iron age navy sucks) that can compete with anyone except Hittite and Sumer. Egypt, with their awesome scythes and long range priest will also cause problems, but Babs is at no major disadvantage against other civs in iron. Also, their great walls, towers, and priests make them the choice to build the wonder when the game goes long and things are looking grim militarily.

What would a Babs strategy be? Well how about this: Take a normal chariot archer civ approach leading up to bronze with the addition of mining gold a little earlier. In early bronze you send an early CA attack against your opponent of choice. He or she will react to the CA attack expecting more of the same and will train a defense/counter attack force geared towards chariot archers. Meanwhile you are switching to compies and an escort unit such as camels or cav for enemy stone throwers. Obviously this doesnít work against Minoan since they have the better compies. If you know who your greatest threat is you have the flexiblity to counter it. Against Minoan you use the typical approach with many STs and archer cover to defend against cavs. Against a chariot archer civ like Hittite or Assy you go for massed compies and something to deal with enemy STs. Sure all this can be done with Egypt, but then you donít get horse archers and Cats in iron.

My point in all of this? When the random civ gods give you Babs, it ainít all that bad.

Thought?

AuthorReplies:
Kamotz
Inactive
posted 05-06-99 11:29 PM ET (US)     1 / 15       
Babylonian is my fav civ because I can sit walled in a hole until I get to Iron. I am not a good rusher, I only play well once I get to iron.
With double HP towers and walls I can seal myself up and work towards iron without much worry. With Bab you need to do that anyway because they are a slow civ and they are at there best in iron.

[This message has been edited by Kamotz (edited 05-06-99).]

Cherub Sting
Clubman
posted 05-06-99 11:32 PM ET (US)     2 / 15       
The bad thing about that Kamotz is that you arrive at iron, only to find your allies near death.

No matter what civ you get, you have to play in iron unless your allies really are handling things.

Babs aint so bad, but they aint so good. I give them a 6 out of 10, pure mediocrity.

Kamotz
Inactive
posted 05-06-99 11:35 PM ET (US)     3 / 15       
I know sitting until Iron is not the best idea, I don't always sit in my wuss-holes I use it so I can protect myself until I get to a point I can fight back
And that's where I need to improve
FWH_Wolfpack
Inactive
posted 05-07-99 00:49 AM ET (US)     4 / 15       
Babs is the ultimate jack of all trades, master of none. Wall up and wonder. I mean the thing starts to go up at the 20 min mark. May not be the best way to play them, but certainly is fun. Only real bad thing I dislike about Babs is no Iron age storage pit techniques. Of course, I'm a technology freak. Almost always have the most techs in a game, which is why I like Roman and Hittite so much. Full pit and almost full market and Gov't center. Roman lacks irrigation and alchemy.
Sin ahhe eriba
Inactive
posted 05-07-99 07:31 AM ET (US)     5 / 15       
Help me out here because I find walls over-rated. I repeatedly read posts from good players talking about walling in as if that is the be all, end all. Here is the problem. If an enemy force with three or four cats shows up, bye-bye wall in short order. Cats out range towers so they are little help. You respond: send out a force to deal with the cats. Well, if I have a field force that can drive off the attackers, then I should probably be taking the war to them anyway, right?

I find walls most useful for preventing those annoying infiltration raids by CA in bronze. After that, you need to get a sizeable army or when the cat attacks come you're dead.
Advice?

Thanks for all the great posts here at the forum. The sharing of ideas and insights adds to my enjoyment of my favorite game.

Jehu
Inactive
posted 05-07-99 09:14 AM ET (US)     6 / 15       
Sin

Certainly walls are not the end-all, be-all in RoR. And their usefullness diminishes as the games goes longer. However, in the early game they can be difference makers. What they do for you in any age is act as a warning system and a speed bump. It is much better to be alerted to the presence of the enemy because they are bashing in your
walls as opposed to them killing your villagers. Now you have the option of fighting or running.

Walls and towers can also be used offensively but that is worthy of a post all its own.

You are right. Walls can produce a false sense of security. But they are also very useful for survival in the first 35 minutes of the game in particular. If a Babs player is given time to fortify and tower his location for wonder defense, they will often make the difference between winning and losing.

Paralyticus
Clubman
posted 05-07-99 09:44 AM ET (US)     7 / 15       
I never played Babylonians (maybe once or twice in random Civs and i don't recall how I did..).

However, I face Babylonian players often, I mean, by the Player's choice.

So, here is my reccollection of the troubles I have with them (in no particular order):

* They are hard to rush in their Tool age, because they get the Tower bonus (2-3 guys in Stone buy them an eternity of Towers...

* They build a zillion Towers in their town.
When I get there, my Archers or CA get a royal puncturing treatment.

* They complement Tower defense with Chariots, CA and the $&%%/()(/## Compies.

* Again: they get BOTH CA and Composite Bowmwen.

* They get Camels

* They build lotsa Cats and use them PLUS Ballista Towers to grab map. First, they come and plant Towers, then they put a few Scythes and cats nearby - what a ******to fight trough (meanwhile, he sucked all the resources behind that curtain). Have I told you about how badly Scythes fare against 2xHP Bab Ballista towers?

* They make Scythes, CA and Towers still after Gold is gone.

* They get the =)(/&%&%654 Horse Archers, the best distracting unit in a game.

They have their drawbacks as well, but look: a damned high defensive value is probably a good compensation for being a slow Civ.

All the times I had difficulty with them was because they were being clever and using one or more of the above points. That should give a good notion of how a good Player can explore them

I did not mention Priests.

Priests are an asset as soon as they manage to reach your military buildings - one less mb for you, an "instant" extra MB for the Bab.

The Priest's value as unit grabber is more visible if you dare to venture hoplites and cavs into is Towered town...


sphinx
Clubman
posted 05-07-99 10:31 AM ET (US)     8 / 15       
Wanted to comment on walls. Walls are not meant to be "the show stoppers". They are more of a "show delayers" if you wish. Do not expect that your walls will stop the enemy dead-this only works for tool bowmen or villagers Tool walls really work as long as there are no slingers. Walls delay the enemy just long enough for you to make some units. For example, it takes a catapult almost as long to take out a fortification as it takes you to make a cavalry or a SC. It is also plenty enough time to grab your villagers and run.

Walls is also your guarantee that a stingle "stray" SC won't sneak up on you and kill all your villagers in no time.

Someone who says "walls are BS" is definitely lacking elementary skills and will fall easily to an average competent player.

Here are several aspects where walls are your best unit to use:
1. Wall the shallows and narrow passages to your town;
2. Wall enemy TC or wall enemy and then attack-his villagers won't run anywhere;
3. Wall enemy gold mines-will take him time to break through and time is very valuable in RTS games;
4. Place your cats behind the wall: nothing can beat that except for better cats or longer ranged priests;
5. Make your wall along and right next to the enemy wall: this way he cannot destroy your wall without destroying his with cats and he will not be able to escape-usually it is a complete wall in and automatically means that you have cut him off from the outside just as he cuts you off from the inside.
6. Fortifications with towers laugh at any melee units except elles and Maces academy
7. Nothing stops a scout rush better than walls
8. Walls can give you just enough time to hold on to the wonder of yours.
9. A pack of 6 lions is too close to your sweet spot-wall the suckers in. If enemy approaches (or villagers walk by)-remove the wall and let them have a bite
10. Walling in enemy front base is the sweetest revenge you can get and it is faster than boning it down

FWH_Wolfpack
Inactive
posted 05-07-99 10:35 AM ET (US)     9 / 15       
Sin, Jehu is correct. It's much better to know the enemy is coming rather than have 10 CA's or 5-6 axers show up in your town unexpected. As for wondering. If you pull say an even 20 iron. Not to difficult with any civ IMO, and the wonder is up by say 23, then your opponents have ~15 min. to get to the wonder and destroy it. Now, very few people are iron in 23 min and even less if your allies are pressuring them. As babs, you also have a your entire Iron age military to go on the offensive with. Also, even if they destroy the wonder, they will be concentrating on YOU, which means your allies could simply trash them while you take the fall. You lose a wonder, they lose the game. And if you've never experienced it, a babs player who is really dug in and wondered, is VERY difficult to stop. Hmmm, almost makes me want to go out and do that now. Hmmm...maybe tonight .
SlakTheEldar
Clubman
posted 05-07-99 10:44 AM ET (US)     10 / 15       
I gotta say, I'm one of those players who actually likes playing Babs. I'll admit to being a CA *****- I'll pump out a couple ASAP and send them to search and destroy peons. Meanwhile, I'll leave a couple of Camels back at the ranch to assist my "horde" of defensive towers (I'm a BIG fan of towers). I've found that putting towers at strategic choke points early in the game provides more flexibility than walling in. Lets face it, most early attacks don't involve very large numbers. My experience (again, I'm not very good) has been that early bronze attacks bring fewer than 7 attacking forces. With 2 or 3 towers covering a narrows, the towers can whittle down the attacking force to the point that the camels can mop up (while under cover of more towers).

Later on, the CAs provide decent cover for cats & balistics, while priests can accompany the force to heal the wounded and convert storage pits and graneries. Bab cav isn't too bad either, but why bother when scythes can be had. Scythes are an effective counter to priests and can mess up enemy cats given proper tactics.

Where babs are weakest, as has been pointed out, is the seas. Especially during Iron. While I've not been in this situation (I just started playing zone games recently), I would be sure to cover my coastline with towers early on, and, if faced with losing the seas, I'd move to farms inland. I usually can't find fish in Iron anyway (I haven't played any island games!), so losing the seas isn't too tramatic to me, provided my towers prevent deep penetrations by transports.

In multiplayer (team), hopefully your partner has a navy to make up for your short-comings.

Anywho. That's my $.02, inflation adjusted.

Cheers,
Slak

------------------
Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately explained by ignorance.
-Robert Heinlein

king_highlander
Inactive
posted 05-07-99 12:51 PM ET (US)     11 / 15       
I thought I would give strat posting a try. I am not well versed in strats as I have never really read any before. I get my strats from watching how people beat me. :O Sorry if this one isn't useful.

You all are focusing well on Baby's ability to be a good iron civ. However, I like to use them as a tool civ. With their rocking towers and stone gathering bonus you will find it easy to attack in tool. I use 2 forward building peons to build barracks outside their base. When I tool that barracks produces slingers right away. After tooling slip peons in their base and buid a barracks so that they can see it and come to attack you with peons. You should finish before they come a calling but you now have slingers coming in to cover you even if they do find you before you finish. Now you will have 2 barracks to produce slingers and or axers and start towering their production points. If they peon rush the slingers, towers will cover. If they peon rush the towers they are in trouble with slingers and double hit point towers.

king_highlander

my strategies mostly suck so you won't see much advice from me, sorry You will probably have reasons this one isn't that good either. I am not sure how I win b/c I don't use hotkeys and most of my strats people say are flawed.

Cherub Shadow8357
Clubman
posted 05-07-99 05:22 PM ET (US)     12 / 15       
Good point. With the stone mining bonus, Babylon could be the best slinger rush civ in existance. Add to this double HP towers, very good priests, and a full tech tree up to iron, and Babylon looks like a fairly formidable civ. Perhaps a slingshot strat is in order, to make up for Bab's slowness.
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-07-99 05:39 PM ET (US)     13 / 15       
Well, as I see it, let's say that you want to kick slingers out of just 3 barracks. Let's say that you are going for a force of 12. For that, you have spent 375W (barracks), 100F/50S (stone mining) and 480F/120S (slingers). That totals out to 375W/580F/170S. The most-favored civ in this race should be the one that does the highest number best. Note that the more slingers you make, the more the higher food-gathering rate civ is favored.

Odd, but might Persia fit the bill better on hunting maps? I gotta try that! Or better yet, Palmyra feeding Persia?

Keep your stick on the ice.

BurchaQ
Inactive
posted 05-07-99 05:52 PM ET (US)     14 / 15       
I played a random civ game yesterday, and had Bab. I felt good, really, when I found out that my opponent was shang . I did not expect a tool rush, because I knew that my opponent would try a fast bronze and then come in with camels. I decided, at the 4th min, after a small exploration, to boom hard. I tooled with 28 vils/12 boats. I really don't remember my tool time, but it was something like late 11's, which is not that good. I had 3 stone miners during the upg. to tool, and the moment I hit tool, I started to build walls all over the map. I walled the shallows, my base, and some critical points. My point was simply to "slow him down", while I would try to find a way to Iron. Then the moment I was tool, I built 8 more vils, and then hit the bronze upg. At that moment the enemy was on me with CA's, I mean over my walls. I will not tell everything that happened, but using some slingers, some towers, lots of walls, 2 war galleys, and 2 priests, I hold him for a while... enough to let me Iron. What's the babilonian bonus? Well, walls, towers, and a good rejuvenation rate. And, obviously, a slightly powerful Iron.
CuC_CaL
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 04:31 AM ET (US)     15 / 15       
This may be over looked but Babylonia defences in Iron are a total PAIN to get through unless you have an overwhelming ammount of siege because they have the ability to counter everything well.

Example- You have a line of 5 Balista towers defending a choke point, backed with some scyhtes and cats.

The most obvious thing to do would attack the towers with cats
Attack #1.
This creates 2 problems for the attacking cats, while they fire at towers babylonia cats target them and attack and the scyhtes are sent foward as well. Unless the attacker acts instantaniously he will die to the cats and even if he does he still has to deal with scyhtes. Result- Dead attacker

Attack #2. The attack realizes your scythe threat and if he choose a helo civ he builds helos to escort. But the building of helos will decrease the ammount of cats he produces. The babylonian player only has to worry about making cats and 10 Cats will beak 5 cats and 5 helos. So unless the attacker can create the escorts and still have equal numbers of cats he will die. Towers under attack, babylonian counters and kills some cats if not all and then the remaining bab cats finish the helos. Result- If the attacker had a lot more cats then the babylonian then he will win, if not he is dead.

Attack #3 Scythes only- Dead to towers

Attack #4 Helos attack towers and scyhtes- Dead to cats.

thoughts- With 5 towers X 480 hps, the cats will have to inflict 2400 hp damage to break through the line. But a weakened army of whatever survived will take a very long time to do this and the babylonian will just send more scyhtes and cats to kill off the rest. A well planned and executed babylonia defence is very very hard to break. But the drawback is that the babylonian player is also limited to this line and wont be able to advance far. A babylonian advance is the building of a new tower line and its support army. This is a slow and painful process but if you continually advance you will leave rows and rows of towers behind you making a surprise attack impossible.

Another good thing about Towers is that most people never use towers and only 3 civs use them extensivly, Rome, Choson, and Babylonian. Stone is a lot like gold except when you reach iron most of it is still there. A random map comes up with 2 stone patches per player and a few more scattered. This makes for lots and lots of stone and lots of lots of towers. And in long drawn out wars 480 hp towers will hamper any moment. If this war sucks up all the gold making scythes the main unit, then you have a huge defence that any scythe army would never make it past.

Sorry if this post was too long

------------------
Zone name: _CuC_CaL

COME GET SOME (but dont hurt me)

[This message has been edited by CuC CaL (edited 05-08-99).]

You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames