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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Assy Wish LIst (And Others)
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Topic Subject:Assy Wish LIst (And Others)
A_Wilder_God
Inactive
posted 01-19-99 08:33 AM ET (US)         
I like Assy. Always have and always will, but they're not what they used to be. They can hang (usually) in 1v1 on a large map. This is because a 1v1 on a large rarely goes into Iron. But on team play, they just don't carry the bucket anymore.

You can hit bronze pretty quick, or do a good tool rush with their bowmen (though slingers put a dent in this). A group of 10 assy Bowmen backed up with a scout or 2 is nothing to sneeze at. And in terms of inflicting damage, Assy CAs are right up there. And you get STs and a decent navy. So in tool and bronze, you can keep up with almost any civ.

But then comes Iron and you're in trouble. Yeah, you can upgrade your STs, but no engineering. Alchemy is no big deal for STs or Cats, but sure would help the CAs and HAs.

I think the addition of just a few techs and one unit would make Assy a very viable civ for all types of games.

Nobility: Xtra hit points for CAs and HAs
Alchemy. Increased rate of fire and the 1 extra point. Sweet.
Chain Mail. Better armor for your CAs and HAs, and according to the tech tree, chain mail allows HHAs. If Assy could get HHAs, that would REALLY be nice.

So these techs and HHAs and Assy, with their speed, would really be smokin'.

And Yam. Poor Yam. Used to be king, but no more. And why not? They get great upgrades. I haven't played Yam much in RoR. Give them the Cat and ballista That's all they need. I think that would make a big difference.

And what's with Hittie? Do they really need AEs and EAs AND HCats? Puh-lease. Take the elephants away. Now granted, against a priest happy civ, the elephants don't do a lot, but picture this:

6 HCats, 6 AEs and 6 EAs, and 10 +1 damage CAs for priest killing, with about 5 priests behind them. Ug. That's ugly.

Did they really play test for civ balance? If they did, all I can think of is that they must have MEANT for some civs to be so much more powerful than others. Go figure.

Well, I'm done venting.



AuthorReplies:
Spam
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 09:00 AM ET (US)     1 / 11       
Call me stupid but what would be the point in creating an invincible super-Assy like that? We would only see a lot of "no Assy and Shang" games.

Assy is a decent civ with two major strengths: best un-upgraded archers in the game and a very versatile iron (full priests, legions, full siege - no engineering though, ballista towers, jihad+siegecraft, triremes and firegalleys) with a strong economy. They lack slingers, ellies and top-end military upgrades but thats it. If you add top-end military upgrades and superunits Assy would become invincible. As of now, Assy is very well balanced IMO - a respectable, but not overpowered, civ.

Yam is a problem though. They are almost unplayable due to the power of camels in bronze and scythes in iron. These units completely nullify the only major advantage Yam has on land - cheap horsies. Yam can pack a nice scoutrush, but that's pretty much it. An idea could be to improve their academy units by, for instance, making them cheaper. A 25% discount on academy could go a long way towards making Yam respectable in bronze and giving them a weapon against scythes in iron.

My 2 cents.

Spam


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 09:49 AM ET (US)     2 / 11       
Problem with Assy Legions is they are major pincushions, what with not having *any* shield. I know its a balance thing, but do you suppose a civ that is known for archery couldn't make the leap of logic to realize that you might sometime need a counter for it?

But as Spam said, Assy's strength is diversity. They can still walk around with rockin' Priests, heles, a cat or 2, HA, a few CA (for priests), and a bunch of villagers to build either ballista towers and new TCs by stone. Yes, they are not the powerhouse they were, mostly because of SC & Tower Shield, IMO, but they can still hang pretty well. As for econ, they are better than most, and for all around econ, probably only beaten by yam. (To Phoeny's supporters, I say by late Iron, woodcutting, schmoodcutting... Gold's where its at!)


Keep your stick on the ice.

A_Wilder_God
Inactive
posted 01-19-99 10:40 AM ET (US)     3 / 11       
Hoyohoyo Spam my boy,

Giving Assy three techs and HHAs wouldn't make them invincible. Still no engineering so their seige would lack range, no powerhouse eles absorbing damage and marching on to victory.

For the puposes of inflicting missle weapon damage, Hittie and Assy are close, but once the contest goes to iron, Assy loses out, not just to Hitt, but to many of the other civs as well. No armor past bronze. No attack bonus past bronze. No engineering. No alchemy. No nobility. Good priests, but not the best (Bab regens faster and Egypt has longer range). No Eles.

I LIKE to play Assy, but when I go 3v3 and the other team is Hitt, Hitt, Sumer, you have to make a better choice than Assy.

All they need is just that little bit and they would be contenders for one of th emost powerful. As is, I think they fall firmly into the middle of the pack. Nobility, alchemy, chain mail, and HHAs. That's it. Still no eles, a shorter range on seige weapons than other civs because of no engineering, no iron hand to hand attack bonus, etc. So they would still have their limitations, but they would have a better chance.

BTW, what's the effing deal with Carth? Got them in a randoma nd they really suck. Give them 2 things: composite archers and make ALL ships 30 percent faster (including fishing boats). If fishing boats were faster, that would give them a slight econ bonus to help offset their absolute slowess. And Compies would give them a chance to make it through bronze.

If you don't have good missle units, you're going to have a tough time in bronze, end of story.

Ror is a great game, and I love the challenge of playing 1v1 random civs and trying to play with what I get. But it's very clear that some civs are better than others. Yet it would be possible to make that unbalnce a little less obvious to enhance the play of what would other be sucky civs-




The_Who
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 11:53 PM ET (US)     4 / 11       
people underrate assys iron, its not that great but its a lot better than some civs. You also have to remember assy is a fast civ like shang, how is shangs iron? A hell off a lot worse then assy. I think assy is a real great civ. In bronze you can dominate for a while and then you can iron fast. Assy horse archers around 24 minutes is pretty bad, especially when the assy already knocked up your econ a few minutes earlier. Assys cats, helos, and horse archer combo is great against any civ except the full cat civs. They can take out anyone else.


The Who

Ender
Guest
posted 01-20-99 07:55 AM ET (US)     5 / 11       
actually yamato isn't so bad in ROR either. In bronze you need to go either hoplite/cav, or composite bowmen. You are a fact civ so those first few cav should be able to do some damage. They also get the best boats in the game, so you should be able to rule those water maps. In iron they get the 2nd best horse archers in the game, and trust me camels aren't going to take out your horse archres. Their cav can also deal with all catapult armies now, so they are a good unit to use in support in a team game.

They just don't dominate in late bronze anymore, its tool, early bronze, early iron that they rule, late in iron they still get coinage and great ships, plus cheap anti-catapult cav in case your allies don't have scythes, or cheap horse archers for raids.


Spam
Clubman
posted 01-20-99 09:06 AM ET (US)     6 / 11       
Ok, maybe those three techs you mentioned wouldn't make Assy "invincible". But remember that if you give them Nobility they will (according to the logic of the game) get Scythes too. This would definitely make them the fast civ with the best iron (in fact, one of the best irons in the entire game), and it could seriously affect game balance.

Spam


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-20-99 10:16 AM ET (US)     7 / 11       
Generally, but not necessarily true, Spam. For instance Choson get wheel but no chariots


Keep your stick on the ice.

A_Wilder_God
Inactive
posted 01-20-99 11:32 AM ET (US)     8 / 11       
If you gave Asst SCs, then they would be too powerful, I agree. But for those three techs and HHAs..... well, I can dream can't I.

I'm just wishing anyway, it's not like ES is going to do anything about it.

Some civs excell at DM, some at RM, and some do decent in both. Maybe that's the way ES designed it to be. I don think they could have spent a little more effort tryong to balance all the civs through all the ages though, but then maybe that would make them all to similar.

I've tried DM games, and I have to say I MUCH prefer RM over DM, that;s why I'd like to see the field leveled a bit more in terms of an RM game as all the civs move through all the ages. It makes sense for some civs to be better than others in certain ages, but for some civs to be so MUCH better takes away form the RM experience.




Hari_Smurf
Inactive
posted 01-21-99 07:43 AM ET (US)     9 / 11       
The rule is that if a civ gets the tech necessary to research the unit upgrade then they get the superunit. This is only true for superunits. It does mean that if assy had nobility they would have scythe chariots. This rule is probably why Hittite are so powerful since they had iron shield and nobility in AOE without taking them away they were entitled to sc and ae.

Quite honestly even if assy got the techs you mention (and SC) once iron it would bring them to a par with Roman and Babs. They would still be overpowered by Hittite. Although I grant you it would be a great improvement.

Hari_Smurf


Spam
Clubman
posted 01-21-99 09:05 AM ET (US)     10 / 11       
Ok, this is a very hypothetical discussion but...

With SCs, Assy would definitely be my civ of choice in Iron in most situations. They would be uniquely versatile, able to counter any threat adequately. The SC and helepolis combo rocks, even without engineering; you can build strong horse archers and ballista towers (unlike Rome); full priests; excellent navy (unlike Babs); "Speedy Gonzales" J+S villagers that are almost impossible to catch; full market upgrades (I think) etc. Only Hittite could touch them, and they wouldn't have an easy time doing it.

Spam


Sting
Clubman
posted 01-21-99 04:35 PM ET (US)     11 / 11       
Well assy's iron is not much better than shangs IMO. Assy gets a better siege workshop, but what shang gets is scythe chariots. Next up, assy is not as fast as shang is. Shang is still a faster civ...and shang gets the slinger, which assy does not get. Shang gets ballista, same as assy, and catapult, same as assy. Except assy gets the better siege workshop, cause they can advance to hcat and hele's.
Shang's Horse archers get nobility, unlike assy's horse archers so assy will win, but not by too much. Shang gets full priests just like assy does.

Assy iron is better overall I think, but shang's iron is not a whole lot worse than assy, as you see they share many of the same units. Altho assy gets more techs in some places...

Just pointed out that shang can own assy in early iron IMHO, because shang will get there first and be all over him with scythe chariots and nobility horse archers.


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